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Defensively - How would you rate Shaq for his career?
He almost won DPOY in 2000..

A - very good defender, bordering on excellent

Shaq's first 3 years in the league (1992-93 to 1994-95, ages 20-22) he has 709 blocks, 2nd most among all players, leads the Magic in minutes played. The Magic as a team allowed the 5th lowest opponent 2pt FG% at 47.2%. He's 6th in the league in defensive rebounds (2041). He is only 1 of 2 players in the league with 1900+ defensive rebounds and 700+ blocks (the other being DRob) these 3 years.

Shaq's 8 years as a Laker (1996-97 to 2003-04) he has 1278 blocks, 3rd most among all players, the Lakers as a team allow the 5th lowest opponent 2pt FG% at 45.4%. He's 3rd in the league in defensive rebounds (4133). He is only 1 of 3 players in the league with 3900+ defensive rebounds and 1200+ blocks (the others being Mutombo and Ben Wallace) these 8 years.

Good drop coverage rim protector, extremely good at getting/prohibiting good post position, very intimidating (look at 48games.com's stats on what % of fouls are And-1's and Shaq has a Wilt like position as the best during the time they studied with no one else close). On the weak side, poor PnR coverage and sometimes inconsistent effort on that end combined with sometimes questionable conditioning. Overall, very good defensive center but probably never the best in the league.

For his career? Somewhere around average sounds right. He had some very impactful strengths around rim protection and post defense, but he wasn't a top tier paint protector even at his best, his motor was very low and he had plenty of weaknesses. I don't think there are many seasons that you could call as "good" for him and he had plenty of weak ones.

Anything over "slightly positive" is a huge oversell to me.

I ranked him in between C and B.

Pros: Very good defender vs opposing Centers. Virtually impossible to post up and back down.

Cons: Very lousy in transition and P&R defence. Picked and chose when he felt to step out to defend when required to step out on shooters whether they be who he was guarding or being caught on a switch.

Very underwhelming as a shotblocker. Probably the only HOF big man that peaked at that aspect in his rookie season.

Serviceable

he wasn't a top tier paint protector even at his best... I don't think there are many seasons that you could call as "good" for him

He wasn't?

The 3 years he was voted all-defensive 2nd team (1999-00, 2000-01, 2002-03) Shaq was 2nd in the league in blocked shots with 602, no one else on the Lakers had more than 195, and the Lakers as a team allowed the 3rd lowest opponent 2pt FG% in the league at just 44.8% over those 3 seasons.

The only player to block more shots those 3 years than Shaq was Theo Ratliff (620) and the teams he played for those 3 seasons allowed a 45.1% opponent 2pt FG%.

Just what exactly is your definition of a top tier paint protector?

his motor was very low

Shaq's first 12 years in the league (with the Magic and Lakers, 1992-93 to 2003-04) he was 2nd in the league in blocks (2102) and 3rd in the league in defensive rebounds (6588).

Just out of curiosity are there any other players in NBA history who were top 3 in blocks and defensive rebounds over a dozen seasons that you feel had not just low but "very low motors" on defense?

Also Shaq was the ages of 20-31 the 12 years mentioned. In NBA history among all players in that age range of 20-31 Shaq has the 4th most blocks - only Olajuwon, Eaton, and Tree Rollins have more.

Above average with peak moments of very good.

He had some good peak playoffs moments in 2001, 2002, 2006 (as an older player and not primary offense star) with some good regular season years in 1997, 1998, 2000. At his most athletic and lean in Orlando, he really wasn’t much of a defensive impact force. His overall defensive impact numbers look quite pedestrian that matches the eye test with his average motor, difficulty out on the perimeter (would get torched in today’s league for example), lazy block outs.

kcktiny wrote:He wasn't?

The 3 years he was voted all-defensive 2nd team (1999-00, 2000-01, 2002-03) Shaq was 2nd in the league in blocked shots with 602, no one else on the Lakers had more than 195, and the Lakers as a team allowed the 3rd lowest opponent 2pt FG% in the league at just 44.8% over those 3 seasons.

The only player to block more shots those 3 years than Shaq was Theo Ratliff (620) and the teams he played for those 3 seasons allowed a 45.1% opponent 2pt FG%.

Just what exactly is your definition of a top tier paint protector?

Well, my definition would start with the exclusion of all the 2P attempts that are not inside the paint...

If you take a look at the Lakers rank in terms of opponent rim volume and efficiency, the Lakers look solid in that period, but not elite (we don't have reliable stats on Basketball-Reference for 2000 season).


2001 Lakers: 7th in volume, 21st in efficiency (that's bad)
2003 Lakers: 7th in volume, 11th in efficiency

I just want to remind you that blocking shots doesn't automatically turn you into elite rim protector.

Shaq's first 12 years in the league (with the Magic and Lakers, 1992-93 to 2003-04) he was 2nd in the league in blocks (2102) and 3rd in the league in defensive rebounds (6588).

Just out of curiosity are there any other players in NBA history who were top 3 in blocks and defensive rebounds over a dozen seasons that you feel had not just low but "very low motors" on defense?

You think that's some kind of proof that shuts down my argument? Seriously?

Watch on YouTube

I watched most of these games full, focusing only on Shaq's offense and defense. Highlight reels just won't do that for me, I can provide dozens of plays where Shaq positions himself poorly, contests too early, fouls for no reason or doesn't rotate to help. Do you want that?

70sFan wrote:I watched most of these games full, focusing only on Shaq's offense and defense. Highlight reels just won't do that for me, I can provide dozens of plays where Shaq positions himself poorly, contests too early, fouls for no reason or doesn't rotate to help. Do you want that?

Well I'd be interested, but more because I love your film analysis, not because I think you're crazy for describing Shaq how you did

The recent Thinking Basketball peaks podcast talked about Garnett's potential poor matchup against Shaq -- that Shaq's offense was fairly resilient to good defenses (which is fairly well documented), but also that Shaq's defense might have been good at countering some of Garnett's rim pressure. But they only touch on it briefly.

Have you listened to that podcast yet? Do you (or others) have any thoughts on Shaq's defense vs KG's teams -- did Shaq's rim protection tend to be a good matchup against KG or fairly resilient against KG-style teams?

Well, my definition would start with the exclusion of all the 2P attempts that are not inside the paint...

What difference does it make where a 2pt shot is attempted from? If you block a 2pt shot - that's a FGA and potential FGM who's FG% went to zero because it was blocked.

And last I checked for a 2pt FGA to become a 2pt FGM it has to go through the rim.

Pretty much all of great shot blockers get most of their blocks near the basket. But all block some shots away from the basket.

I just want to remind you that blocking shots doesn't automatically turn you into elite rim protector.

Oh no?

Ok, then you name all of the players below that were not elite rim protectors.

blocks player
3830 Olajuwon
3289 Mutombo
3189 Jabbar
3064 Eaton
3019 Duncan
2954 DRob
2894 Ewing
2732 Shaq
2542 Tr.Rollins
2361 Parish
2356 Mourning
2331 Camby
2228 Dw.Howard
2136 B.Wallace
2119 Sh.Bradley
2086 M.Bol
2082 G.Johnson
2061 Br.Lopez
2037 K.Garnett
2026 L.Nance

That's the all-time shots blocked list.

That's Shaq 8th on the list, a player you say had a very slow motor on defense. Clueless.

Is Shaq an elite rim protector? If not then who else on this list is not? Or is it just Shaq?

You think that's some kind of proof that shuts down my argument? Seriously?

Yes when you can't answer a simple question you resort any non-answer to avoid having to answer.

So I will ask it again - you said Shaq had a very low motor on defense, even though he is 8th on the all-time shots blocked list.

Let's see if you answer. I bet you won't. You find any excuse not to answer. Because you like making statements you can't support with any evidence.

I can provide dozens of plays where Shaq positions himself poorly, contests too early, fouls for no reason

Shaq's first 3 years in the league 1992-93 to 1994-95 the Magic as a team allowed the 5th lowest opponent 2pt FG% at 47.2%.

Shaq's 8 years as a Laker 1996-97 to 2003-04 the Lakers as a team allow the 5th lowest opponent 2pt FG% at 45.4%.

Those 11 seasons Shaq blocked 1987 shots. No other Magic/Lakers player more than 446,

Care to explain why those teams were so good defensively again 2pters? Or who was the key reason why they were so good defensively against 2s?

Shaq played 28547 minutes over those 11 seasons (close to 1/7 of the teams total minutes played). No one else played more than 9200 minutes less than Shaq did.

So why were his teams so good against opposing 2s?

And to show you how ridiculous your "fouls for no reason" comment is, the fact is if you look at the foul rates from the above list of all the players with 2000+ blocks, the average rate of fouls committed is 4.5 PF/48min. Shaq is at 4.7 PF/48min. The worst is at 7.2 PF/48min (George Johnson).

So if anything for a great shot blocker Shaq's rate of fouls committed was average.

I feel like I can answer this as I've watched plenty of Shaq film in the last year or so.

A huge weakness of Shaq's was simply fouling too much. He'd either swipe down or he'd just nudge players with his body and hope the refs wouldn't notice. And they almost always did notice because at 300 lbs just touching most opposing players would make them at least alter their trajectory if not fall to the ground. Another weakness especially in early years was venturing out at the perimeter too often where he just didn't have the foot speed to stay in front. He'd get beat off the dribble with no one protecting the basket. Easy two points for the opposing team. Generally his awareness defensively wasn't the best and he'd make many poor/late reads especially early in his career.

That said, Shaq was a fantastic vertical rim protector when camped in the paint and you just came at him. He offered plenty of intimidation at the basket. He was also a good man defender in the post, for instance doing a fantastic job on Hakeem in the 1995 Finals. All in all, I'd give him like a B- in his Orlando years (probably describe as a slight positive defender comparable to Jokic) and a solid B+ (good defender) during his Lakers peak. CIrca 2000, he cleaned up the stupid fouling to an extent and mostly just stayed in the paint. If you tried to put him in a P&R, he mostly knew his weakness in terms of lateral movement and would just retreat to the rim. Better to concede the (usually) long two-point jumper than risk getting beat with no rim protection behind him.

For careers after 1997, we have 29 year RAPM data. This encompasses most of Shaq's career. Defensively, he was a -2.1 which is good, and the same value as John Stockton / Jason Kidd (elite for a PG), and Jokic.

Other players in the same area are Kawhi -2.2, Anthony Davis -2.3, Dwight Howard -1.9.

Of course, the elite defenders since 1997 are leagues ahead. KG -6.4, Mutombo -5.5, Caruso -5.3, Draymond -5.2, Gobert -5.0, Duncan -4.9, Ben Wallace -4.9.

I think overall, his career ends up as a "good defender"

A huge weakness of Shaq's was simply fouling too much.

Well this is certainly false.

Shaq's first 12 years in the league (ages 20-32), when with Orlando and the Lakers, he committed 4.3 PF/48min. Just the average C these dozen years committed 5.9 PF/48min.

Among the 33 Cs these 12 years that played 10,000+ minutes (Shaq played 30493 min), Shaq committed fouls at the 4th best/lowest per minute rate. The only Cs of these 33 that committed fouls at a lower per minute rate than Shaq were Ben Wallace, David Robinson, and Dikembe Mutombo.

One thing Shaq was extremely good at was scoring, rebounding, and playing defense - all without committing fouls.

DraymondGold wrote:

70sFan wrote:I watched most of these games full, focusing only on Shaq's offense and defense. Highlight reels just won't do that for me, I can provide dozens of plays where Shaq positions himself poorly, contests too early, fouls for no reason or doesn't rotate to help. Do you want that?

Well I'd be interested, but more because I love your film analysis, not because I think you're crazy for describing Shaq how you did

OK, let's start with the interior defense.

As some people already mentioned, Shaq has his value as a rim protection. His huge frame and immense vertical athleticism made him a very intimidating rim protector. You can see the well known phenomenon that players avoided attacking Shaq inside because he's too big and too long for them:



The best Shaq plays are these ridiculous vertical contests when he has enough time to load on a jump:



His standing reach was also on full display close to the basket:



The problem is that basketball isn't a static game and Shaq was fairly weak at adjusting his position and helping out on a move.

Djoker already mentioned his poor fouling tendencies and no, the fact that Shaq didn't average a lot of fouls in total doesn't mean he doesn't commit a lot of stupid, unnecessary fouls. Take a look at this play:



Shaq was in a fine position to help, but he was clueless at how to position his body and the Blazers got easy points out of action that was basically shut down by his teammate. Another example:



This play shows what Djoker described in his post:



Can anyone explain me for what reason Shaq fouled here? Again, these are only two plays but it's a very common thing with Shaq.

Another concern with Shaq is that he chased blocks a lot, often leaving his man completely wide open inside:



Even when he is in position, many of his block attempts were extremely bad in terms of timing and hand placement:



These are all very common plays for Shaq and all of them comes from his peak seasons. This is why I don't rate Shaq's paint protection as "elite", despite his length, size and intimidation. Not to mention that his low motor doesn't help either. This is quite typical Shaq experience (especially after 2001 when he gained weight):



He often just standed and ball-watched with no effort to do anything helpful to his team. Look at how he missed his man on this possession:



I won't even go in detalis to describe his poor P&R defense, I just give you 2 plays from the same game from his absolute peak defensive season in 2000 against the Heat:



Don't have more time to talk about some of his strengths (especially in the post), but that's how I see it.

The recent Thinking Basketball peaks podcast talked about Garnett's potential poor matchup against Shaq -- that Shaq's offense was fairly resilient to good defenses (which is fairly well documented), but also that Shaq's defense might have been good at countering some of Garnett's rim pressure. But they only touch on it briefly.

Have you listened to that podcast yet? Do you (or others) have any thoughts on Shaq's defense vs KG's teams -- did Shaq's rim protection tend to be a good matchup against KG or fairly resilient against KG-style teams?

I have listened to the pod, I haven't watched 2003 and 2004 series in a long time, so can't really provide anything substantial on that matter. I do think that certain players can be susceptible to Shaq's inside intimidation factor due to the lack of agression and physical strength, but I haven't seen anything to really back it up.

kcktiny wrote:

A huge weakness of Shaq's was simply fouling too much.

Well this is certainly false.

Shaq's first 12 years in the league (ages 20-32), when with Orlando and the Lakers, he committed 4.3 PF/48min. Just the average C these dozen years committed 5.9 PF/48min.

Among the 33 Cs these 12 years that played 10,000+ minutes (Shaq played 30493 min), Shaq committed fouls at the 4th best/lowest per minute rate. The only Cs of these 33 that committed fouls at a lower per minute rate than Shaq were Ben Wallace, David Robinson, and Dikembe Mutombo.

One thing Shaq was extremely good at was scoring, rebounding, and playing defense - all without committing fouls.

With Orlando in the playoffs, he had 4+ personal fouls in 21/36 (58%) of his games. That's a lot. During the threepeat years, it was just 22/58 (38%) which is much better.

Maybe he wasn't too foul prone compared to the average C but an average C plays what... 25 minutes a game. You actually need your superstar C to play like 40 minutes in that era and Orlando Shaq was sidelined by fouls too often even in important playoff games.

Djoker wrote:

kcktiny wrote:

A huge weakness of Shaq's was simply fouling too much.

Well this is certainly false.

Shaq's first 12 years in the league (ages 20-32), when with Orlando and the Lakers, he committed 4.3 PF/48min. Just the average C these dozen years committed 5.9 PF/48min.

Among the 33 Cs these 12 years that played 10,000+ minutes (Shaq played 30493 min), Shaq committed fouls at the 4th best/lowest per minute rate. The only Cs of these 33 that committed fouls at a lower per minute rate than Shaq were Ben Wallace, David Robinson, and Dikembe Mutombo.

One thing Shaq was extremely good at was scoring, rebounding, and playing defense - all without committing fouls.

With Orlando in the playoffs, he had 4+ personal fouls in 21/36 (58%) of his games. That's a lot. During the threepeat years, it was just 22/58 (38%) which is much better.

Maybe he wasn't too foul prone compared to the average C but an average C plays what... 25 minutes a game. You actually need your superstar C to play like 40 minutes in that era and Orlando Shaq was sidelined by fouls too often even in important playoff games.

It's also not just about the number of fouls, but also number of unnecessary, silly fouls that made him passive on defensive end for the rest of the game.

You actually need your superstar C to play like 40 minutes in that era and Orlando Shaq was sidelined by fouls too often even in important playoff games.

Do you really not know who Shaquille O'Neal is?

In 36 playoff games with Orlando Shaq played 39 min/g.

In 122 playoff games with the Lakers Shaq played 41 min/g.

In 158 playoff games with both Orlando and the Lakers Shaq played 40.4 min/g. He committed 3.5 PF/g, 4.2 PF/48min. That was from 1993-94 to 2003-04.

The average C in those 11 years (1993-94 to 2003-04) of playoff games committed 6.4 PF/48min. Of the 14 Cs that played 1000+ playoff minutes over those 11 seasons, Shaq had the 2nd lowest per minute rate of fouls committed at 4.2 PF/48min. Only Mutombo was lower at 3.8 PF/48min. You know who was worse? Olajuwon 4.6 PF/48min, DRob 5.0 PF/48min, and Mourning 5.4 PF/48min.