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Everyone talks about him as arguably the GOAT defensive PG but how about his offense? I feel that it doesn't get discussed enough.

Seattle from 1993-2002 had some consistently great offenses.

Sonics Season: RS rORtg (Rank) /PS rORtg

1993: +4.3 (4th) / +4.8
1994: +4.8 (2nd) / +0.8
1995: +6.6 (1st) / +2.0
1996: +2.6 (8th) / +0.0
1997: +4.5 (3rd) / +7.3
-- Kemp Leaves --
1998: +6.5 (3rd) / +6.0
1999: +2.8 (6th) / N/A
2000: +1.5 (9th) / +2.2
2001: +2.6 (10th) / N/A
2002: +4.4 (5th) / +2.0

Average: +4.1 / +3.4

His team's offensive results crush someone like Jason Kidd for instance. +4.1 offense over 10 years is pretty elite. Top 10 offense every year, top 5 six times, top 3 four times.

How much of this is on Payton and how much in your mind are other factors? Because those Seattle teams certainly had some offensive talent often 3-4 pretty capable offensive guys but they weren't super stacked and I think GP's playmaking was important. He had that famous chemistry with Kemp for alley oops but it was more than that. Payton controlled the tempo of the game well and knew how to get guys ball in the right spots.

He is underrated offensively and overrated defensively, but I suppose that balances out. He was a peace, magician the way that he worked around there and was a difficult cover. I got the chance to see him live multiple times it was fun watching him on offense.

Payton came into the draft with one of the highest "floor general" offensive ratings according to Draft Express (if I remember who I was reading about draft prospects at the time). His first two years in the league, he scored less than 10 ppg and neither his assist totals nor his efficiency were particularly impressive, especially with guys like Stockton doubling him up in assists once Stock hit prime. And I think you may underrate the amount of offensive talent he played with relative to his peers but yes, underrated as a floor general (maybe a bit overrated as a scorer).

Everyone talks about him as arguably the GOAT defensive PG but how about his offense?

Absolutely one of the very best offensive PGs of his era, arguably the best.

He is underrated offensively

Yes he is.

and overrated defensively

No he isn't.

From the decade of 1992-93 to 2001-02, Seattle averaged the 2nd most wins among all teams (W-L of 54-28), as a team ranked 2nd in the league in offensive efficiency (108.3 pts/100poss scored), and 6th in defensive efficiency (102.9 pts/100poss allowed).

Over that decade on that 2nd best offensive team in the league, Payton scored 15571 points. No other Sonics player scored even half that many points.

Payton also threw 5893 assists, no one else on the team threw for even 1700 assists. He was even 3rd on the team in offensive rebounds (910).

He was - by far - the most important offensive player on that team over a full decade.

How impressive are those numbers? Over that decade no other PG in the league scored within 5000 points of what Payton scored, and despite being by far the best scoring PG in the league he also threw for the 3rd most assists in the league (5893).

Over that decade Seattle ranked 6th best in the league in defensive efficiency (102.9 pts/100poss allowed).

Yet they allowed just the 16th lowest opponent 2pt FG% (47.7%), the 7th lowest opponent 3pt FG% (34.6%), and ranked just 23rd (7th worst) in defensive rebounding percentage (.685).

So how did a team that ranked like that finish 6th in defensive efficiency as a team?

Because over that decade they ranked 1st in the league in most turnovers forced on defense, 18.3 opponent TO/100poss.

And how did they do that? Because Payton ranked 1st among all players in the league in most steals with 1702, no other Sonics player had more than 721 (that's 981 less than Payton), and Payton alone accounted for 22% of the Sonics total steals.

No. Probably overrated if anything.

kcktiny wrote:

Everyone talks about him as arguably the GOAT defensive PG but how about his offense?

Absolutely one of the very best offensive PGs of his era, arguably the best.

He is underrated offensively

Yes he is.

and overrated defensively

No he isn't.

From the decade of 1992-93 to 2001-02, Seattle averaged the 2nd most wins among all teams (W-L of 54-28), as a team ranked 2nd in the league in offensive efficiency (108.3 pts/100poss scored), and 6th in defensive efficiency (102.9 pts/100poss allowed).

Over that decade on that 2nd best offensive team in the league, Payton scored 15571 points. No other Sonics player scored even half that many points.

Payton also threw 5893 assists, no one else on the team threw for even 1700 assists. He was even 3rd on the team in offensive rebounds (910).

He was - by far - the most important offensive player on that team over a full decade.

How impressive are those numbers? Over that decade no other PG in the league scored within 5000 points of what Payton scored, and despite being by far the best scoring PG in the league he also threw for the 3rd most assists in the league (5893).

Over that decade Seattle ranked 6th best in the league in defensive efficiency (102.9 pts/100poss allowed).

Yet they allowed just the 16th lowest opponent 2pt FG% (47.7%), the 7th lowest opponent 3pt FG% (34.6%), and ranked just 23rd (7th worst) in defensive rebounding percentage (.685).

So how did a team that ranked like that finish 6th in defensive efficiency as a team?

Because over that decade they ranked 1st in the league in most turnovers forced on defense, 18.3 opponent TO/100poss.

And how did they do that? Because Payton ranked 1st among all players in the league in most steals with 1702, no other Sonics player had more than 721 (that's 981 less than Payton), and Payton alone accounted for 22% of the Sonics total steals.

He had pretty talented teams and an alltime great coach that seems to be forgotten, but yea, Payton was the brains and best player on those teams and was one of the best two way guards, not just PGs, ever. He didn't shoot the three (a major factor of who is good or not nowadays ) but scored really well and as you said. he was a force on defense. Those Seattle teams won a heap and besides 94 and 95, two of the worst chokes ever, they had considerable playoff success. Payton had his flaws, they all did and still do, but for stability for winning, he was one of the best, even with the supposed difficult attitude. He was there for years and they never traded him and won alot, he couldn't have been that bad.

Sure, it's possible. It's also worth mentioning the George Karl factor. IIRC, he preferred to play deeper rotations with more offensive talent, coupled with an aggressive trapping defense that generated lots of live-ball turnovers and plenty of transition offense. FWIW, Jeremias Engelmann's coach RAPM has Karl with the highest ORAPM at +1.2/100 poss.