How many Durant years over Peak K-Malone?

[Matt15]

How many years of Durant would you take over Peak Malone?

[trelos6]

'13
'14
'16
'17
'18
'19

And then it's how do you value the games reduction in the Brooklyn years. On a per game level, KD > Malone in '21-'23. But obviously missed a lot of time during the season.

[iggymcfrack]

I’d have to go with ‘13, ‘14, ‘17, and ‘19. So 4 years. 2016 he choked too hard in the playoffs and he didn’t peak high enough in any of the injury plagued years for me to take him over the ultimate iron man.

[migya]

Durant's greatest skill, scoring, is not really better than Malone and everything else it's Malone. Defense and rebounding clearly better for Malone also and that's all for career. Peak to peak, Malone is better and for a number of seasons.

[tsherkin]

Durant's greatest skill, scoring, is not really better than Malone

That's not correct at all...

[falcolombardi]

Durant's greatest skill, scoring, is not really better than Malone and everything else it's Malone. Defense and rebounding clearly better for Malone also and that's all for career. Peak to peak, Malone is better and for a number of seasons.

No

[eminence]

I'd probably give him '12/'13/'14/'16. Bit too much missed time in '17. '19 contending too, but I didn't much like how he played in the playoffs (relatively), and then he got injured.

Both consistently on that 2nd tier of player, not best in the league level, but clearly 1st Team level who'll grab an MVP when the stars align.

[migya]

Durant's greatest skill, scoring, is not really better than Malone

That's not correct at all...

I won't go into it, because yours and others views are what they are, but Malone carried his team's scoring load more than Durant ever did, and that's just looking at scoring. He passed better and generated double teams from the post, creating for his teammates in space. Defensively, again, Malone clearly. Malone's peak season, which ever one you want to use, 92, 97 or 98, is better than Durant's best. Basketball is not just outside shooting and wing oriented play, it's much more than that.

[tsherkin]

I won't go into it, because yours and others views are what they are, but Malone carried his team's scoring load more than Durant ever did, and that's just looking at scoring.

Did he? He played two-man game with one of the best PGs we've seen, in one of the most organised offenses the 90s had to offer, and he broke down under playoff pressure routinely when that was disrupted. Durant also scored more relative to his peers, and it's not like Malone was considerably more efficient. So no, that isn't really an effective answer.

He passed better

No, not really. He passed effectively as Sloan's system took effect, but that's not really BETTER than what Durant offers. KD obviously isn't Lebron or Magic, but there's nothing about passing which Malone did better.

[quote[
and generated double teams from the post, creating for his teammates in space.
[/quote]

KD, particularly in youth, is a dynamic on-ball threat, which is a lot more valuable for creating for teammates than set play in the post... and Malone was often involved in high PnR anyway as opposed to his iso power-post game. This is definitely not a guaranteed value point in Malone's favor.

Defensively, again, Malone clearly.

Is it? Perhaps if you only look at Brooklyn/Phoenix KD but not really relative to OKC Durant. Malone wasn't an especially remarkable defender. He wasn't a stunning rim protector, he had no real value on the perimeter. He was a good defensive rebounder who played solid straight-up D in iso post scenarios.

[DirtyDez]

You have to start in 2012 based on his WCF vs the Spurs who had won 20 straight going into that series.

[kcktiny]

Malone wasn't an especially remarkable defender.

All-defensive 1st team 3 straight seasons 1996-97 to 1998-99.

Just out of curiosity are there any other players that were named all-defensive 1st team 3 straight seasons that you do not consider especially remarkable defenders?

Durant's greatest skill, scoring, is not really better than Malone

That's not correct at all

Malone carried his team's scoring load more than Durant ever did

Did he?... he broke down under playoff pressure routinely... no, that isn't really an effective answer.

Durant played in the league 17 years, Malone 19.

If you look at just each players first 17 years in the league Durant scored 30571 points, Malone 34707. That's a difference of 4136 points, in favor of Malone, which is the equivalent of two additional 82 game seasons of scoring 25.2 pts/g.

Hard to score if you're missing games and Durant missed far more games than Malone ever did.

Durant played through the age of 36. In the regular season he scored 27.2 pts (37 min/g), in the playoffs 29.3 pts/g (41 min/g).

Malone through the age of 36 in the regular season scored 26.0 pts/g (37 min/g), in the playoffs 26.6 pts/g (41 min/g).

So both players increased their scoring in the playoffs.

Also in the regular season Durant shot better than Malone, but Malone drew far more fouls (9.3 vs. 7.4 FTA/g), sending more opponents to the bench in foul trouble, and was the far better offensive rebounder (2.6 vs. 0.7 offreb/g).

[Joao Saraiva]

Malone wasn't an especially remarkable defender.

All-defensive 1st team 3 straight seasons 1996-97 to 1998-99.

Just out of curiosity are there any other players that were named all-defensive 1st team 3 straight seasons that you do not consider especially remarkable defenders?

Durant's greatest skill, scoring, is not really better than Malone

That's not correct at all

Malone carried his team's scoring load more than Durant ever did

Did he?... he broke down under playoff pressure routinely... no, that isn't really an effective answer.

Durant played in the league 17 years, Malone 19.

If you look at just each players first 17 years in the league Durant scored 30571 points, Malone 34707. That's a difference of 4136 points, in favor of Malone, which is the equivalent of two additional 82 game seasons of scoring 25.2 pts/g.

Hard to score if you're missing games and Durant missed far more games than Malone ever did.

Durant played through the age of 36. In the regular season he scored 27.2 pts (37 min/g), in the playoffs 29.3 pts/g (41 min/g).

Malone through the age of 36 in the regular season scored 26.0 pts/g (37 min/g), in the playoffs 26.6 pts/g (41 min/g).

So both players increased their scoring in the playoffs.

Also in the regular season Durant shot better than Malone, but Malone drew far more fouls (9.3 vs. 7.4 FTA/g), sending more opponents to the bench in foul trouble, and was the far better offensive rebounder (2.6 vs. 0.7 offreb/g).

While I like Karl Malone being defended as a player I must say... not all scoring is equal. Sure from a career perspective Malone having more durability can balance things, but scoring wise it just translates into more points. But the efficiency gap is really big, and in Durant's favor.

Malone raising in the playoffs... no he didn't. Malone is actually a guy who drops in the playoffs, maybe not in raw numbers but his efficiency takes a big slash. If Malone did raise in the playoffs he'd be a lot more into top 10 conversations, cause he's definitely a top 10 guy ever if we only consider regular season.

I think Karl still takes it career wise, but saying their scoring is equal or goes Malone's way... no it doesn't.

[kcktiny]

While I like Karl Malone being defended as a player I must say... not all scoring is equal.

I just posted what is factual. Make of it what you will.

But glad you mentioned this.

Sure from a career perspective Malone having more durability can balance things, but scoring wise it just translates into more points.

Exactly. Isn't that the whole point? Doesn't more points win more games?

From a career perspective (not peak) let's look at each player's first 18 years in the league, Durant 2007-08 to 2024-25, Malone 1985-86 to 2002-03.

Durant missed the entire 2019-20 season (injury), 2/3 of the 2014-15 season, 15% of Golden State's games, over 2/5 of Brooklyn's games. In his career he's averaged playing 64/82 games per season.

Malone his first 18 seasons averaged playing 81/82 games per season.

So over each's first 18 years in the league Malone averaged playing 17 more games per season.

But the efficiency gap is really big, and in Durant's favor... saying their scoring is equal or goes Malone's way... no it doesn't.

It's doesn't?

Then here's my question. What was Durant's shooting efficiency over those 17 games per season he didn't play that Malone did play? What was his scoring average?

A big part of any player's ability is his availability.

And the fact is that - on average - every season Malone was scoring 25+ pts/g in 17 more games per season than Durant was, at an efficiency better than Durant (zero efficiency if you're not playing).

Also Karl Malone was all-NBA 1st team 11 straight seasons. Durant was all-NBA 1st team 6 times. Ever ask yourself why?

Because Karl Malone was a dominant performer over a long period of time. Those 11 seasons (1988-89 to 1998-99) among all PFs in the league Malone:

- scored 23696 points (27.4 pts/g), no other PF scored more than 12138 points. Think about that - over 11 years Malone scored almost twice as many point as any other PF in the league
- he scored all those points while also grabbing the most rebounds among all PFs (9280 rebs, 10.7 reb/g)
- attempted 8554 FTAs (9.9 FTA/g), no other PF attempted even 3800 FTAs - again, more than twice as many as any other PF
- threw for 3107 assists (3.6 ast/g), no other PF was within even 1000 assists of that
- grabbed 1249 steals, no other PF grabbed more than 1010
- blocked 748 shots, 4th most among PFs
- shot 53.4% on 2s, during those 11 seasons 36 PFs played 10,000+ minutes, and among those 36 Malone shot the 5th highest 2pt FG%

Oh, and over that 11 year span Utah had the 2nd best W-L record in the league (average W-L of 56-26, only Chicago was better). Gee I wonder why?

Malone is actually a guy who drops in the playoffs, maybe not in raw numbers but his efficiency takes a big slash

Yes his efficiency does.

But if you asked any NBA head coach if he could have Karl Malone for 81 games a season or Kevin Durant for 64 games a season, who do you think he'd choose? Or Malone for 81 games vs. Durant for 70 games?

Lastly this is a thread on Malone's peak. Well Malone was all-NBA 1st team 11 years in a row. How's that for a peak? Compare that to the best 11 year stretch for Durant and he still outscores Durant by 2380 points, which is the equivalent of another 82 game season at 29.0 pts/g.

Even in the years Durant won titles he played an average of only 65 games in the regular season. In 2016-17 Golden State went 67-15 even with Durant missing 20 games, and in the 20 games he missed they went 16-4, and had a 13 game winning streak.

Lastly, between these two players:

- of the 20 seasons for most minutes played between them, Malone has 15 of them
- of the 20 seasons for most points scored between them, Malone has 13 of them

[RCM88x]

'12-'14 are probably it for me, gonna exclude the GS years, and big drop-off after that due to health. I'm not really going to hold the missed RS time in GS against him too much since there was so little value placed on those games much of the time, but I really don't think he ever quite reached his '14 level again after some of those injuries, despite having good efficiency and scoring numbers in GS, that team environment was just so unique.

[Owly]

Because Karl Malone was a dominant performer over a long period of time. Those 11 seasons (1988-89 to 1998-99) among all PFs in the league Malone:

- scored 23696 points (27.4 pts/g), no other PF scored more than 12138 points. Think about that - over 11 years Malone scored almost twice as many point as any other PF in the league

Fwiw, not that it much matters but
I believe most regard Charles Barkley as a power forward on aggregate over his career and especially when eliminating earlier years when he had a little more athleticism and spent less time backing people down.
Barkley is someone who is at least prime adjacent through this spell (something that your arbitrary cutoffs typically ... incidentally ... may end up cutting out any potential competition) and is a PF scorer when a good chunk of the PF archetype is in the "banger, enforcer, non-scorer" model.

Barkley, who absolutely was less resilient, amassess 16889 points. He's still scoring at a lesser rate ... it's not just minutes. As I will get on to I'm not sure the gap number matters ... but even so taking that at face value might be misleading.

And this window (which doesn't include Barkley's best TS Add season) sees him accumulate regular season 1935.3 TS added points versus typical expected outcomes, whilst Malone gets to 2377.5.

Malone was an iron man, generated a lot of volume (8 second place ppg finishes - and not '94 or '95 ... one player prominently casting the shadow there then) and in the regular season very good efficiency. Sadly for him that efficiency didn't hold up in the postseason (TS+ of 109 falls to 99 on his career, per Reference ... obviously playoff opponents vary, playoff shape of careers vary, degree to which playoff variance is luck is not a settled matter).

Sure from a career perspective Malone having more durability can balance things, but scoring wise it just translates into more points.

Exactly. Isn't that the whole point? Doesn't more points win more games?

I think the point missed here is that where more points are scored by durability it's only indirectly related to scoring.

Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace scored more regular season points than Freeman Williams and Billy Ray Bates ... that doesn't really tell us about their scoring proclivity. Kevin Willis, Buck Williams and Charles Oakley, as of right now each have more RS career points than Shai Gilgeous Alexander.

And unless you have a real maverick owner a player won't be replaced by ... having no player on the court any raw terms gap.

Once one establishes the value of a players scoring (hard to vacuum this off) you could then get to "and my player did it for longer" (though that wouldn't really be pertinent to OP's question where peak probably implies a healthy season) ... but given you don't replace a player with nothing a raw terms gap seems ... at best ... not particularly useful by itself and probably misleading.

[Djoker]

Scoring definitely goes to Durant due to much better playoff resiliency but overall when comparing their peaks, I don't think taking Malone > Durant is crazy. Malone to me is a better passer and a better defender and so you can argue he's a better all-around player. He had fantastic impact in Utah in the late 90's as well and those teams' and his individual legacy are tainted by running into a buzzsaw that was the Bulls.

That said, I think KD peaked a bit higher and I'd take a few seasons like 2014, 2016 and 2017 over peak Malone.

[kcktiny]

I think the point missed here is that where more points are scored by durability it's only indirectly related to scoring.

It's often a fine line between being stubborn and being stupid.

Let's rephrase the thread from "How many Durant years over Peak K-Malone" to "How many Embiid years over Peak K-Malone".

From the ages of 24-30 Joel Embiid averaged 29.2 pts/g (35.7 pts/40min), Karl Malone averaged just 28.1 pts/g (28.9 pts/40min). Embiid was the better shooter on 2s, 3s, and FTs, per minute Embiid was the better rebounder, better passer, better shot blocker, and was one of the very few that can claim attempted more FTAs per minute than Malone did.

Malone played 3000+ minutes and 80+ games each of those seasons. Embiid averaged just 51 games and only 1673 minutes per season.

How many Embiid seasons are you taking over peak Malone?

Better yet.

Embiid was in the league from the ages of 22-30, scored 34.7 pts/g one season, 33.1 pts/g in another. How many of those seasons you taking over Durant in that same age range? If any, why? If none, why?

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't think their peaks in terms of on court impact are all that different. Is KD the better player in a vacuum? Most likely, such as with 2014 where he just willed the Thunder to the 3rd best srs in the league even without WB for half the season but Malone gets the advantage of playing with a top pg/coach who compliment him more than KD ever played with(at least until the gs years where he's sort of coasting on offense) which in turn helped him reach his potential more imo. I think the only KD season that truly stands out as better than peak 96-98 Malone is 2014 for those reasons. Maybe add in 2012 for his playoffs.

[Top10alltime]

Durant's greatest skill, scoring, is not really better than Malone and everything else it's Malone. Defense and rebounding clearly better for Malone also and that's all for career. Peak to peak, Malone is better and for a number of seasons.

What?

We can't be serious. KD is clearly a better off-ball scorer and player overall. Better finisher, EASILY even if KM is top 25 finisher of all-time (which he is at best). KD is a top 5 finisher ever, a top 3-5 mid range scorer and an ATG 3 point shooter. He provides incredible spacing, and is better against tougher coverages than KM.

KM isn't all that as a defender. KD is a better rim protector and more versatile. He is also better on ball defender.

KD is a better playmaker due to vision and processing skills being better than Km, also being less turnover prone.

Like, KD clears at every aspect of the game over KM. KD is a top 15 all time player, at worst he's top 20.

KM isn't top 25 all-time, and has done nothing to prove his failing career. He is a playoff dropper, a choker who has sub par defense, and his greatest skillset is commiting scoring turnovers and being a playoffs dropper.

KD clears KM and anyone who says otherwise, I urge you to watch real basketball.



And as for the question in hand, 98 Malone is his peak. KD has

2012
2013
2014
2016
2017
2018
2019
2021
2022
2023

Over 98 Malone. Possibly 26 as well.

[trex_8063]

I think the point missed here is that where more points are scored by durability it's only indirectly related to scoring.

It's often a fine line between being stubborn and being stupid.

Let's rephrase the thread from "How many Durant years over Peak K-Malone" to "How many Embiid years over Peak K-Malone".

From the ages of 24-30 Joel Embiid averaged 29.2 pts/g (35.7 pts/40min), Karl Malone averaged just 28.1 pts/g (28.9 pts/40min). Embiid was the better shooter on 2s, 3s, and FTs, per minute Embiid was the better rebounder, better passer, better shot blocker, and was one of the very few that can claim attempted more FTAs per minute than Malone did.

Malone played 3000+ minutes and 80+ games each of those seasons. Embiid averaged just 51 games and only 1673 minutes per season.

How many Embiid seasons are you taking over peak Malone?

Better yet.

Embiid was in the league from the ages of 22-30, scored 34.7 pts/g one season, 33.1 pts/g in another. How many of those seasons you taking over Durant in that same age range? If any, why? If none, why?

I broadly/generally agree that at some point the disparity on durability/missed games becomes relevant. e.g. That it may be better to have the 'B+' scorer for 82 games than it is to have the 'A' scorer for 55 games [or whatever] is a valid point, imo.

It's also a point which could have been made without being deliberately provocative [the opening line], don't you think?

Put another way, your voice may carry further talking across to people instead of down to them.