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Inspired by my choice in a recent T&T Games draft, would you rather build a team for a one-year playoff run around Curry/Dwight or Penny/Shaq?

All players at roughly their peaks. The rest of the roster will be filled out by good shooters, defenders, and a couple of secondary ballhandlers, but the pair you select will be the main guys.

I'll take Curry and Dwight for the offense/defense and should be easy to build around.

Even in Shaq's heyday, I'd lean Curry/Dwight a bit with full health for everyone though I could be convinced otherwise. Today's league, Curry's edge is quite a bit wider and Dwight's defensive mobility narrows the gap at center.

Interesting question. I think Curry clears Penny by enough that I'm happy to take the defensive and rebounding value Dwight holds over Shaq as compared to Shaq's O over Dwight, though.

This is close.

Peak Penny Hardaway (1995-96) is as close to peak Steph Curry as probably any PG.

kcktiny wrote:This is close.

Peak Penny Hardaway (1995-96) is as close to peak Steph Curry as probably any PG.

I don't think they're close at all.

Why is Penny closer to Steph than Nash or CP3?

I don't think they're close at all. Why is Penny closer to Steph than Nash or CP3?

Clearly you were not watching the NBA 30 years ago in 1994-95 and 1995-96.

Penny Hardaway was being christened as the 2nd coming of Magic Johnson at the time, a 6-7 PG that could literally do it all - pass, score, get to the basket, draw fouls, rebound, play defense. His highlights were all over the news on a nightly basis. Was all-NBA 1st team in just his 2nd and 3rd seasons in the league. Lead (with Shaq) the Magic to 57-25 and 60-22 records those seasons, made it to the Finals one year, the ECFs the other. Was 3rd in MVP voting in 1995-96. Was just 24 years of age at the end of that season.

Then injuries took away from fans what was surely a player headed for an awesome career.

In mentioning Nash and Paul you must be impressed with high assists PGs. Back then Penny Hardaway was considered the most complete PG, on both offense and defense, the league had seen in quite some time.

I would say peak Penny is closer to Curry than Dwight is to Shaq.

But having played those draft games a lot in the past and knowing the judging criteria, this is Curry/Dwight pretty easily. Two non 3pt shooters without a strong defensive identity while costing a lot more FGA leaves very few options in terms of roster flexibility and cap space. Other than position overlaps, you are almost guaranteed safe to take BPA in round 3 and 4 with Curry/Dwight.

In the context of the T&T games, Curry and Dwight. Relegate Dwight to 4th option and optimize 2nd/3rd offensive pieces with the extra FGA.

kcktiny wrote:

I don't think they're close at all. Why is Penny closer to Steph than Nash or CP3?

Clearly you were not watching the NBA 30 years ago in 1994-95 and 1995-96.

Penny Hardaway was being christened as the 2nd coming of Magic Johnson at the time, a 6-7 PG that could literally do it all - pass, score, get to the basket, draw fouls, rebound, play defense. His highlights were all over the news on a nightly basis. Was all-NBA 1st team in just his 2nd and 3rd seasons in the league. Lead (with Shaq) the Magic to 57-25 and 60-22 records those seasons, made it to the Finals one year, the ECFs the other. Was 3rd in MVP voting in 1995-96. Was just 24 years of age at the end of that season.

Then injuries took away from fans what was surely a player headed for an awesome career.

In mentioning Nash and Paul you must be impressed with high assists PGs. Back then Penny Hardaway was considered the most complete PG, on both offense and defense, the league had seen in quite some time.

Penny was really good for a short period of time, but looking at his box stats, much of the hype around him was based on the assumption that he would continue his upward trajectory, which he never did. As good as he was during his actual peak, he didn't approach Steve Nash or Chris Paul at their peak.

Penny was really good for a short period of time, but looking at his box stats, much of the hype around him was based on the assumption that he would continue his upward trajectory

Come again? He was named all-NBA 1st team twice his first 3 seasons in the league because voters were hyped thinking he would be even better later in his career? That literally makes no sense.

He was named all-NBA 1st team those 2 seasons because he was a dominant player in the league at that time.

As good as he was during his actual peak, he didn't approach Steve Nash or Chris Paul at their peak.

Penny Hardaway was all-NBA 1st team twice by the age of 24, in just 3 seasons in the league. Paul wasn't all-NBA 1st team twice until the age of 26, his 7th season in the league, and Nash was not all-NBA 1st team twice until age 32, his 10th season in the league.

Just out of curiosity how many other PGs can you name in NBA history that were voted all-NBA 1st team twice by the age of 24?

Also compare the stats and the team success of the first 3 seasons for Penny Hardaway and Magic Johnson. Team records that averaged 57-25 and 56-26, 19.5 vs. 18.9 pts/g, 8.5 vs. 7.0 ast/g - then you'll understand the comparisons between the two players.

I suggest you educate yourself - go on YouTube and watch some video of other NBA players who played against him talking about how good Penny was. Then go and watch some actual video of him playing those two seasons (1994-95 and 1995-96).

To be clear, I’m not asking about how to win the T&T draft (which already finished before I made this thread), but just about which pair people think would actually be better on the floor.

At least the disagreements here and the deadlocked poll make me feel better about being unsure!

kcktiny wrote:

Penny was really good for a short period of time, but looking at his box stats, much of the hype around him was based on the assumption that he would continue his upward trajectory

Come again? He was named all-NBA 1st team twice his first 3 seasons in the league because voters were hyped thinking he would be even better later in his career? That literally makes no sense.

He was named all-NBA 1st team those 2 seasons because he was a dominant player in the league at that time.

As good as he was during his actual peak, he didn't approach Steve Nash or Chris Paul at their peak.

Penny Hardaway was all-NBA 1st team twice by the age of 24, in just 3 seasons in the league. Paul wasn't all-NBA 1st team twice until the age of 26, his 7th season in the league, and Nash was not all-NBA 1st team twice until age 32, his 10th season in the league.

Just out of curiosity how many other PGs can you name in NBA history that were voted all-NBA 1st team twice by the age of 24?

Also compare the stats and the team success of the first 3 seasons for Penny Hardaway and Magic Johnson. Team records that averaged 57-25 and 56-26, 19.5 vs. 18.9 pts/g, 8.5 vs. 7.0 ast/g - then you'll understand the comparisons between the two players.

It's not about who was better at age 24; it's about who was better at their peak. Unfortunately for Penny, age 24 was his peak.

I saw him play at his best. He was really good. He was not better than Chris Paul and Steve Nash at their best.

If you want to make an argument that Penny was better than those guys, compare stats and metrics for all of them at their peaks, not just who did what by age 24. If you're gonna go with who was better at age 24, hell, you can claim Penny was better than Steph. But that's not what this thread is comparing.

it's about who was better at their peak

I would take Penny's 1995-96 season over any season of Paul or Nash.

If you want to make an argument that Penny was better than those guys

As a PG lead a 60-22 team in points scored, assists, steals, was named all-NBA 1st team, 3rd in MVP voting.

compare stats and metrics for all of them at their peaks, not just who did what by age 24

Go for it.

you can claim Penny was better than Steph

Where have I said this?

kcktiny wrote:Peak Penny Hardaway (1995-96) is as close to peak Steph Curry as probably any PG.

That seems wrong on basically every level. They are nothing alike physically, stylistically, nor statistically.

Penny was a hyper-athletic, 6'7 guard with a lot of quickness and bounce. He was a solid shooter, but certainly not a 6'3, game-breaking monster from 3 who was at the vanguard of major changes in the game. Penny was an archetype we'd already been seeing for a while.

And yeah, statistically, he was nowhere near the kind of impact we saw from Steph at his peak. I'm struggling to see the angle you were aiming for when authoring that comparison.

That seems wrong on basically every level.

Perhaps if you had watched him play.

They are nothing alike physically, stylistically, nor statistically.

The comment was made solely in terms of helping his team win games.

but certainly not... at the vanguard of major changes in the game

The second coming of Magic Johnson, that was the declaration around the league during and just after 1995-96.

And yeah, statistically, he was nowhere near

This kid in just his 2nd and 3rd seasons at the young ages of 23 and 24 was named all-NBA 1st team - twice - when there were PGs like Payton and Stockton and Kidd in the league.

So, then you tell us - what statistics does a PG have to have to be named to the all-NBA 1st team?

Those 2 seasons Stockton tallied 1927 assists, Penny Hardaway just 1133. PGs like Payton and Dana Barros and Tim Hardaway scored similarly per game as Penny did. Kidd was a much better rebounder than Penny. Payton, Blaylock, Stockton, and Kidd all had more steals than Penny.

Yet it was Penny Hardaway that was voted all-NBA 1st team those two years in a row. In 1994-95 Penny Hardaway got the 5th most votes for the all-NBA 1st team as just a 23 year old second year player, and the 3rd most votes in 1995-96 for the all-NBA 1st team (only Jordan and Pippen received more) when it was just his 3rd season and at the age of only 24.

The 3rd most votes as a 3rd year player. Now just why do you think that was?

Or are you another one of these so-called experts that claim all-NBA teams and all-defensive teams are just popular votes with no matching to reality and believe the voters has their assistant coaches or sportswriters/broadcasters had their friends cast their votes for them?

1995-96 Shaq missed a third of the season (at the start) for Orlando. Yet the team went 17-5 with Jon Koncak as the starting C. Imagine that.

I'm struggling to see the angle you were aiming for when authoring that comparison.

Well then tell you what - struggle on over to YouTube and type in "NBA players discussing how good Penny Hardaway was" and report back to us. Let us know what you learn, what those who played against him thought of him.

kcktiny wrote:Perhaps if you had watched him play.

I've watched both.

The second coming of Magic Johnson, that was the declaration around the league during and just after 1995-96.

People say lots of things. They aren't always accurate. He was a skinny tall guard who was a lot quicker than Magic and a lot less gifted a playmaker, and not really the same kind of scorer, either.

This kid in just his 2nd and 3rd seasons at the young ages of 23 and 24 was named all-NBA 1st team - twice - when there were PGs like Payton and Stockton and Kidd in the league.

That isn't material the point I was making. Penny was very good, but he was never as good as peak Steph.

Well then tell you what - struggle on over to YouTube and type in "NBA players discussing how good Penny Hardaway was" and report back to us. Let us know what you learn, what those who played against him thought of him.

This isn't a useful comment. It's devoid of any substance at all. You understand this, right? Peak Steph was a repeat MVP who was redefining what was possible in the game, with impact levels which were Jordan-esque. He's literally the best shooter in league history.

You can talk all you want about word-of-mouth reputation, but it doesn't really support the argument you were trying to make.

Once again: stylistically, physically, statistically, accolades... in none of these ways were these two players similar.

Penny was very good, and on a major upward swing before his body gave out and destroyed his career, no doubt. But like most whose careers were cut short before we could see their full career arc, he is often oversold pretty badly (as you are doing here) out of nostalgia. Dude was amazing to begin with, and had ATG potential, but he was never at any point in his career as good as was Steph at the peak of his career. There isn't a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise. He wasn't even close relative to his peers as what Steph was doing in 2015 and 2016.

Penny was an archetype we'd already been seeing for a while.

If by archetype you mean Magic Johnson I agree.

People say lots of things. They aren't always accurate.

Ah - but you know better 3 decades after the fact. Revisionist history.

Penny Hardaway was absolutely one of the biggest stars in the league after 1995-96. Everyone was saying the sky was the limit for him.

and a lot less gifted a playmaker

Lot Less? Clear evidence you have not watched Penny Hardaway play.

a lot quicker than Magic... and not really the same kind of scorer

Magic did not average 20 pts/g in a season twice until his 8th season in the league. Penny Hardaway averaged 20+ pts/g in a season twice by his 3rd season.

Penny was very good, but he was never as good as peak Steph.

And who said he was? Reading comprehension.

This isn't a useful comment. It's devoid of any substance at all.

Because you are too lazy to see and hear what other NBA players thought of him?

You understand this, right?

I understand you think you know who Penny Hardaway was but you clearly don't.

You can talk all you want about word-of-mouth reputation, but it doesn't really support the argument you were trying to make.

I trust the opinions of those who played against Penny Hardaway moreso than yours. And those that watched him during his career.

Once again: stylistically, physically, statistically, accolades... in none of these ways were these two players similar.

Accolades?? Dude what are you missing here? Penny Hardaway was all-NBA 1st team twice in his first 3 seasons. Curry twice by his 7th season.

he is often oversold pretty badly

What a dumb statement. Often? By whom?

Oversold? All-NBA 1st team twice his first 3 seasons in the league. How is that being oversold?

but he was never at any point in his career as good as was Steph at the peak of his career.

You really do need to learn how to read.

Also I notice you refuse to back up statements you make:

And yeah, statistically, he was nowhere near the kind of impact

You make a statement as if it is of import, so I will ask you again. What statistics does a PG need to be named all-NBA 1st team?

All-NBA 1st team by definition is sportswriters/broadcasters listing of the best players in the league. Are you saying he did not have the statistics of a player that should have been named all-NBA 1st team?

tsherkin wrote:

kcktiny wrote:Peak Penny Hardaway (1995-96) is as close to peak Steph Curry as probably any PG.

That seems wrong on basically every level. They are nothing alike physically, stylistically, nor statistically.

Penny was a hyper-athletic, 6'7 guard with a lot of quickness and bounce. He was a solid shooter, but certainly not a 6'3, game-breaking monster from 3 who was at the vanguard of major changes in the game. Penny was an archetype we'd already been seeing for a while.

And yeah, statistically, he was nowhere near the kind of impact we saw from Steph at his peak. I'm struggling to see the angle you were aiming for when authoring that comparison.

There is an odd niche of fans who seem to believe that Penny was better than even Shaq, and that if Penny had just stayed healthy the Magic would have become a better team than the Shaq Lakers. Since Penny got hurt, and it's impossible to prove a negative, this myth lingers on even today.

I voted Penny/Shaq, but it wasn't because I was under the illusion that Penny was ever as good as Curry.

kcktiny wrote:Ah - but you know better 3 decades after the fact. Revisionist history.

No, it was hyperbole at the time, and statistically untrue beyond that.

Penny Hardaway was absolutely one of the biggest stars in the league after 1995-96. Everyone was saying the sky was the limit for him.

Yes. Irrelevant, but yes. In 96, everyone thought the sky was the limit for him because he was very good, for sure. But he still didn't exhibit impact anything like Steph had at his peak, which is the focus of this conversation.

Lot Less? Clear evidence you have not watched Penny Hardaway play.

No, I watched plenty of Penny, I just also watched a lot of Magic. Penny was a quickness-based playmaker who didn't have Magic's size or command over the game. He was very good, but he wasn't anything like Magic's level of playmaker.

Magic did not average 20 pts/g in a season twice until his 8th season in the league. Penny Hardaway averaged 20+ pts/g in a season twice by his 3rd season.

He shot more a lot earlier, for sure, but he was also never as effective in the post as Magic. Didn't have the same size, wasn't as good at drawing fouls in general, wasn't nearly as good when he got to the line, etc, etc.

And who said he was? Reading comprehension.

Your words: "Peak Penny Hardaway (1995-96) is as close to peak Steph Curry as probably any PG."

We've been talking about how poor a comparison that is this entire time. Yes, you didn't say he was exactly the same, but there's literally nothing connecting the two. Not physical tools, not size, not style of play, and certainly not impact on the game. You don't get to shift goalposts here. You were trying to suggest Penny was "as close to peak Steph" as other PGs, and it's violently inaccurate.

I trust the opinions of those who played against Penny Hardaway moreso than yours. And those that watched him during his career.

Players have routinely been proven fallible due to nostalgia, hyperbole, having recently just lost to a player, etc. We see it all the time. They're no more reliable than any random guy in a bar for commentary on the sport.

Accolades?? Dude what are you missing here? Penny Hardaway was all-NBA 1st team twice in his first 3 seasons. Curry twice by his 7th season.

MVP x2 sort of destroys this angle of conversation.

What a dumb statement. Often? By whom?

Common conversation about his career

Oversold? All-NBA 1st team twice his first 3 seasons in the league. How is that being oversold?

Repeating All-NBA selections isn't useful. Rhetorical technique isn't going to help you here.

You make a statement as if it is of import, so I will ask you again. What statistics does a PG need to be named all-NBA 1st team?

As with most of your commentary so far, this isn't relevant. Impact required to be All-NBA 1st Team isn't relevant to the level of impact Steph was managing at his peak. This is exceedingly obvious. If you aren't going to pay attention to those things because you want to shift goalposts and use emotional appeals instead of real information, then we don't have the basis for actual dialog here.

All-NBA 1st team by definition is sportswriters/broadcasters listing of the best players in the league. Are you saying he did not have the statistics of a player that should have been named all-NBA 1st team?

This isn't a logical projection. Steph was one of the highest-impact offensive players in the history of the game of basketball at his peak. Penny never approached that. End of discussion on that front.