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Two of the more overlooked players in Suns history in my opinion. When comparing their respective peaks in Phoenix, who do you think had the better overall season?

Dennis Johnson 1980-81
- 18.8 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG
- .436 FG%, .216 3P%, .820 FT%
- NBA All-Star
- All-NBA First Team
- NBA All-Defensive First Team
- 8th in MVP Voting

Kevin Johnson 1990-91
- 22.2 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 10.1 APG, 2.1 SPG. 0.1 BPG
- .516 FG%, .205 3P%, .843 FT%
- NBA All-Star
- All-NBA Second Team
- 7th in MVP Voting

I'd go with KJ. DJ was taking way too many shots for his lousy efficiency and while he was a great defender and KJ was not, the offensive differential seems likely to have had greater impact than the defensive one.

penbeast0 wrote:I'd go with KJ. DJ was taking way too many shots for his lousy efficiency and while he was a great defender and KJ was not, the offensive differential seems likely to have had greater impact than the defensive one.

I don't really agree with the notion that KJ's offensive impact was more significant than DJ's defensive impact. At that point in time, DJ was not only considered to be the best perimeter defender in the league, he was regarded as the best defender period. Individually, 1981 was his second year in a row of being the top vote getter for NBA All-Defensive Team, and collectively, Phoenix became the top rated defense in the league upon his arrival, improving from 5th the year before. If the DPOY award existed at the time, it's very likely that DJ would have won it that year. KJ was obviously a fantastic player, but in my humble opinion, a guard that averages 18/19 points a game while also providing DPOY level defense is more valuable than a 22-10 guy who was nothing to write home about as a defender.

Broad gut is (assuming we can leave aside KJ's ... mostly only latterly a public issue ... offcourt ... whatever you might call it) KJ is the better player.

Even if we don't get into the DJ being twice traded: once for a significantly older player at broadly the same position (guard) after being compared to a cancer by ... I think first veteran Paul Silas, then head coach Lenny Wilkens and then for cents on the dollar (maybe even negative value) not far either side of this season ... whilst granting DJ's defense, KJ is probably more consistent and productive.

I'd be more confident in calling KJ a something-like a superstar level player.

One thing against this, for the years mentioned ... it's less my priority and depends what the question is but ... KJ had a miserable playoffs. The bits I've read suggest a combination of injury (under-healed left hamstring limiting explosiveness - a big part of KJ's game) and an effective defensive job by Stockton, in concert with a small sample too (4 games). If you're trying to infer potential championship equity off the playoffs as actually played ... then KJ looks really bad.

AStark1991 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:I'd go with KJ. DJ was taking way too many shots for his lousy efficiency and while he was a great defender and KJ was not, the offensive differential seems likely to have had greater impact than the defensive one.

I don't really agree with the notion that KJ's offensive impact was more significant than DJ's defensive impact. At that point in time, DJ was not only considered to be the best perimeter defender in the league, he was regarded as the best defender period. Individually, 1981 was his second year in a row of being the top vote getter for NBA All-Defensive Team, and collectively, Phoenix became the top rated defense in the league upon his arrival, improving from 5th the year before. If the DPOY award existed at the time, it's very likely that DJ would have won it that year. KJ was obviously a fantastic player, but in my humble opinion, a guard that averages 18/19 points a game while also providing DPOY level defense is more valuable than a 22-10 guy who was nothing to write home about as a defender.

I would grant that our defensive read (always somewhat fuzzy) gets quite a lot more fuzzy the further back we go. So it's hard to know exactly how valuable DJ's defense was. It's possible some (perhaps myself included) are underestimating it. That said, the slashline framing above is incomplete and perhaps misleading. Incomplete in the sense almost all slashlines are in thatsignificant data is missed out. Potentially misleading in noting points alone without noting that Kevin is a 113 TS+ accuracy shooter (for a 196.6 TS Add) whilst DJ is at 97 TS+ (and -53.7 TS Add). Individual efficiency isn't the only thing for a point guard (though I think other offensive stuff tilts for KJ, including assists as you mentioned) but this isn't just 3 fewer points off unstated, perhaps thought to be fewer, possessions but an implied circa 250 point swing over the season on possessions ending with those players shooting. TS Add isn't perfect and occurs within a particular context but given pretty similar usage levels that mitigates one of the larger issues some people can have with it.

Owly wrote:

AStark1991 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:I'd go with KJ. DJ was taking way too many shots for his lousy efficiency and while he was a great defender and KJ was not, the offensive differential seems likely to have had greater impact than the defensive one.

I don't really agree with the notion that KJ's offensive impact was more significant than DJ's defensive impact. At that point in time, DJ was not only considered to be the best perimeter defender in the league, he was regarded as the best defender period. Individually, 1981 was his second year in a row of being the top vote getter for NBA All-Defensive Team, and collectively, Phoenix became the top rated defense in the league upon his arrival, improving from 5th the year before. If the DPOY award existed at the time, it's very likely that DJ would have won it that year. KJ was obviously a fantastic player, but in my humble opinion, a guard that averages 18/19 points a game while also providing DPOY level defense is more valuable than a 22-10 guy who was nothing to write home about as a defender.

I would grant that our defensive read (always somewhat fuzzy) gets quite a lot more fuzzy the further back we go. So it's hard to know exactly how valuable DJ's defense was. It's possible some (perhaps myself included) are underestimating it. That said, the slashline framing above is incomplete and perhaps misleading. Incomplete in the sense almost all slashlines are in thatsignificant data is missed out. Potentially misleading in noting points alone without noting that Kevin is a 113 TS+ accuracy shooter (for a 196.6 TS Add) whilst DJ is at 97 TS+ (and -53.7 TS Add). Individual efficiency isn't the only thing for a point guard (though I think other offensive stuff tilts for KJ, including assists as you mentioned) but this isn't just 3 fewer points off unstated, perhaps thought to be fewer, possessions but an implied circa 250 point swing over the season on possessions ending with those players shooting. TS Add isn't perfect and occurs within a particular context but given pretty similar usage levels that mitigates one of the larger issues some people can have with it.

"it's hard to know exactly how valuable DJ's defense was" No it's not. In addition to everything mentioned in my previous comment, both Magic Johnson and George Gervin have flat out stated that DJ was the toughest defender they personally faced, with Magic going as far as calling him "the best backcourt defender of all-time." When both the best point guard and the best perimeter scorer of your era consider you to be their toughest matchup, that's a pretty obvious indicator of how impactful someone is as a perimeter defender. Furthermore, DJ made 9 consecutive All-Defense Teams with 6 of them being First Team selections. At least to me, his elite defensive impact is clear as day.

AStark1991 wrote:

Owly wrote:

AStark1991 wrote:I don't really agree with the notion that KJ's offensive impact was more significant than DJ's defensive impact. At that point in time, DJ was not only considered to be the best perimeter defender in the league, he was regarded as the best defender period. Individually, 1981 was his second year in a row of being the top vote getter for NBA All-Defensive Team, and collectively, Phoenix became the top rated defense in the league upon his arrival, improving from 5th the year before. If the DPOY award existed at the time, it's very likely that DJ would have won it that year. KJ was obviously a fantastic player, but in my humble opinion, a guard that averages 18/19 points a game while also providing DPOY level defense is more valuable than a 22-10 guy who was nothing to write home about as a defender.

I would grant that our defensive read (always somewhat fuzzy) gets quite a lot more fuzzy the further back we go. So it's hard to know exactly how valuable DJ's defense was. It's possible some (perhaps myself included) are underestimating it. That said, the slashline framing above is incomplete and perhaps misleading. Incomplete in the sense almost all slashlines are in thatsignificant data is missed out. Potentially misleading in noting points alone without noting that Kevin is a 113 TS+ accuracy shooter (for a 196.6 TS Add) whilst DJ is at 97 TS+ (and -53.7 TS Add). Individual efficiency isn't the only thing for a point guard (though I think other offensive stuff tilts for KJ, including assists as you mentioned) but this isn't just 3 fewer points off unstated, perhaps thought to be fewer, possessions but an implied circa 250 point swing over the season on possessions ending with those players shooting. TS Add isn't perfect and occurs within a particular context but given pretty similar usage levels that mitigates one of the larger issues some people can have with it.

"it's hard to know exactly how valuable DJ's defense was" No it's not. Both Magic Johnson and George Gervin have flat out stated that DJ was the toughest defender they personally faced, with Magic going as far as calling him "the best backcourt defender of all-time." When both the best point guard and the best perimeter scorer of your era consider you to be their toughest matchup, that's a pretty obvious indicator of how impactful someone is as a perimeter defender. Additionally, DJ made 9 consecutive All-Defense Teams with 6 of them being First Team selections. At least to me, his elite defensive impact is clear as day.

I think you are either under the misapprehension I was claiming DJ wasn't a good defender or you think that the above quotes plus accolades allow us to know with precision "exactly how valuable" a defender is. In either case I disagree with whichever position.

Edit: Although, on reflection, doing the former sincerely in light of the context of the full sentence with those before and after it, in which it is expressly about a general uncertainty and then using that offer specifically in the direction of maybe some people aren't estimating high enough would seem a curious reading.

And I'm not sure I'd be hailing Magic as a talent evaluator. And a quick google suggests he's directly contradicted that statement saying "Coop is the greatest defensive player I’ve ever seen in the NBA". And I suspect Magic is poorly placed to argue "of all-time" unless he's some kind of low-key research and footage of early NBA (and recent NBA) fiend.

Potentially misleading in noting points alone without noting that Kevin is a 113 TS+ accuracy shooter (for a 196.6 TS Add) whilst DJ is at 97 TS+ (and -53.7 TS Add). Individual efficiency isn't the only thing for a point guard

D.J. played mostly SG in 1980-81. The Suns PGs that season were Kyle Macy and Johnny High, who combined played 39 min/g.

Johnson did not play primarily PG until his 9th season in the NBA at the age of 30, his second season with Boston.

As for D.J. vs. K.J give me the player that is all-NBA 1st team and all-defensive 1st team all day every day. Dennis Johnson was a beast on defense, arguably the best defensive SG the league has ever seen (in the conversation with Jordan, Robertson, West, T.Allen, perhaps a couple others).

I would grant that our defensive read (always somewhat fuzzy) gets quite a lot more fuzzy the further back we go. So it's hard to know exactly how valuable DJ's defense was.

1977-78 to 1979-80 Seattle was - by far - the best defensive team in the league (98.5 pts/100poss allowed). The difference between them and the next best defensive team Phoenix (99.7 pts/100poss allowed) is the same as the difference between Phoenix and the 7th best defensive team Kansas City (100.9 pts/100poss allowed) over those 3 years. They were best on defense in the league in 1978-79 and 1979-80, 2nd best in 1977-78.

The next season he goes to Phoenix and as mentioned above the Suns as a team go from 6th to 1st in the league in defensive efficiency, the Sonics drop from 1st to 7th.

Go watch the 1977-78 and 1978-79 Sonics/Bullets Finals games. Listen to the constant praise Brent Musburger slathers all over D.J. for his defense. Those two series Bullets SG Kevin Grevey shot just 37% and 38% from the floor (7%-8% lower than what he shot in the regular season). D.J. blocked 28 shots in 480 minutes over 12 Finals games, 2.3 bs/40min. The league average C those 2 seasons blocked shots at just 1.9 bs/40min.

kcktiny wrote:

Potentially misleading in noting points alone without noting that Kevin is a 113 TS+ accuracy shooter (for a 196.6 TS Add) whilst DJ is at 97 TS+ (and -53.7 TS Add). Individual efficiency isn't the only thing for a point guard

D.J. played mostly SG in 1980-81. The Suns PGs that season were Kyle Macy and Johnny High, who combined played 39 min/g.

Johnson did not play primarily PG until his 9th season in the NBA at the age of 30, his second season with Boston.

As for D.J. vs. K.J give me the player that is all-NBA 1st team and all-defensive 1st team all day every day. Dennis Johnson was a beast on defense, arguably the best defensive SG the league has ever seen (in the conversation with Jordan, Robertson, West, T.Allen, perhaps a couple others).

DJ mostly played point guard in 1981. That year their starting lineup consisted of him at point, Walter Davis at shooting guard, Jeff Cook and Truck Robinson at forward, and Alvan Adams at center. Both Macy and High came off the bench.

kcktiny wrote:

Potentially misleading in noting points alone without noting that Kevin is a 113 TS+ accuracy shooter (for a 196.6 TS Add) whilst DJ is at 97 TS+ (and -53.7 TS Add). Individual efficiency isn't the only thing for a point guard

D.J. played mostly SG in 1980-81. The Suns PGs that season were Kyle Macy and Johnny High, who combined played 39 min/g.

Johnson did not play primarily PG until his 9th season in the NBA at the age of 30, his second season with Boston.

As for D.J. vs. K.J give me the player that is all-NBA 1st team and all-defensive 1st team all day every day. Dennis Johnson was a beast on defense, arguably the best defensive SG the league has ever seen (in the conversation with Jordan, Robertson, West, T.Allen, perhaps a couple others).

I believe you've significantly misread my post.

In context of the slashlines mentioned "points" should be clearly understood to refer to the volume points totals given in the slashlines. I struggle to see how "noting points alone" in the context above could refer to position, the post responded to isn't in some way "noting only point guards" (and if they were why wouldn't you quote them) and later in the post, it is revisited when I say

but this isn't just 3 fewer points off unstated, perhaps thought to be fewer, possessions

For what it's worth, I think applying the label of point/shooting guard isn't always clear or necessarily useful, especially without defining the term, on some teams or in some eras. I would be willing to defer to someone I'm confident has particular expertise here which I wouldn't claim. High and Macy were shorter guards. Phoenix's offensive decision-makers, perhaps playmakers (again depending how one understands the term) in the half-court seem to have been their high-post pivots. You see Macy noted in a source of the time noted as a ballhandler but then also Johnson as a "lead guard". You say primarily shooting guard, Reference says primarily point (and as I now post I see another poster is arguing he was primarily a point) ... my inclination personally (allowing some uncertainty), is just to call him a guard.

I like KJ alot and think he is a top 20 PG alltime for peak and 8yr odd prime, but DJ late 70s and early 80s was among the best ever all up in both ends combined. His defense is huge and he was quite good offensively as well. KJ was a beast offensively and ran a team amazingly. Very close really and when considering who to take on a team it depends soley on roster around them. KJ ran an offensively built and successful Suns team with and without Barkley.


History could be so different in every decade and one of those is with the KJ Suns:

1990 - Beat Lakers in an upset 2nd rd, lost in six to Blazers after outscoring them by almost six per game that series. They make it to finals who knows but big accomplishment at such a young age.

1993 - Paxson finals wiining three game 6, if went to game 7 who knows.

1994 and 95 - Very close 7 game series against champion Rockets. They win that, who knows how far they go but wcf each year, would make a great playoff resume over first five odd seasons of his career.

AStark1991 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:I'd go with KJ. DJ was taking way too many shots for his lousy efficiency and while he was a great defender and KJ was not, the offensive differential seems likely to have had greater impact than the defensive one.

I don't really agree with the notion that KJ's offensive impact was more significant than DJ's defensive impact. At that point in time, DJ was not only considered to be the best perimeter defender in the league, he was regarded as the best defender period. Individually, 1981 was his second year in a row of being the top vote getter for NBA All-Defensive Team, and collectively, Phoenix became the top rated defense in the league upon his arrival, improving from 5th the year before. If the DPOY award existed at the time, it's very likely that DJ would have won it that year. KJ was obviously a fantastic player, but in my humble opinion, a guard that averages 18/19 points a game while also providing DPOY level defense is more valuable than a 22-10 guy who was nothing to write home about as a defender.

So my big thing here would be this:

Offensive stars generally have more impact on offense than defensive stars have on defense because of how the game is structured.

I'm not looking to knock DJ's defense relative to any other perimeter guy - he was great - but the offense initiates and once they reach a sufficient baseline of skill, they can avoid anyone who isn't primarily stationed by the rim. (And even with the bigs, outside shooting now mitigates for their impact, though I think we're all eager to see Wemby as a final boss on this.)

None of this means DJ can't be the answer here when you factor in both sides of the ball, but it's DJ on defense and KJ on offense in a league dictated by offense.

Re: humble opinion, a guard that averages 18/19 points a game while also... You're welcome to your own opinion but I'd push back by saying efficiency matters and poor efficiency can mean that your team does worse with every possession where you call your own number.

Offensive stars generally have more impact on offense than defensive stars have on defense because of how the game is structured.

Care to explain this statement? Just how is the game structured such that this is true?

A great defender has just as much impact on a team in terms of winning games as does a great player on offense, and there are many examples.

I'm not looking to knock DJ's defense relative to any other perimeter guy - he was great... None of this means DJ can't be the answer

From 1976-77 to 1979-80 Seattle was the best team in the league in defensive efficiency (98.1 pts/100poss allowed). They were 3rd worst in the league in offensive efficiency (99.8 pts/100poss scored), yet they had the 3rd best W-L record in the league over those 4 years. Dennis Johnson played 9530 minutes on the Sonics (close to 1/8 of the team's total minutes), no other single Sonics player played even 8000 minutes. Those 4 years he was the only Sonics player named to the all-defensive team (all-defensive 1st team in 1978-79 and 1979-80).

From 1980-81 to 1982-83 Phoenix was the best team in the league in defensive efficiency (99.6 pts/100poss allowed). They ranked just 13th in the league in offensive efficiency (104.0 pts/100poss scored), yet they had the 5th best W-L record in the league over those 3 years. Dennis Johnson played 8103 minutes on the Suns (close to 1/7 of the team's total minutes), no other single Suns player played even 7000 minutes. Those 3 years he was the only Suns player named to the all-defensive team (all-defensive 1st team all 3 seasons).

So Dennis Johnson was the best defensive player on two teams he played for that were the best defensive team in the league the whole time he was with each team and that clearly won games primarily because of their defense and not their offense.

in a league dictated by offense.

Care to try to justify this statement? How does offense dictate the league any more than defense does?

In 1980-81 the top 4 teams in W-L record were also the top 4 teams in defensive efficiency (Phoenix, Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Boston) and ranked just 3rd, 4th, 8th, and 16th in offensive efficiency.

In 1990-91 of the 9 teams that won 50+ games 8 were the top 8 teams in defensive efficiency. Of those 9 teams only 4 ranked in the top 10 in offensive efficiency.

So it appears that in the 2 seasons in question (1980-81 and 1990-91) winning was dictated more by defensive minded teams, not offensive minded teams.

kcktiny wrote:

Offensive stars generally have more impact on offense than defensive stars have on defense because of how the game is structured.

Care to explain this statement? Just how is the game structured such that this is true?

A great defender has just as much impact on a team in terms of winning games as does a great player on offense, and there are many examples.

I'm not looking to knock DJ's defense relative to any other perimeter guy - he was great... None of this means DJ can't be the answer

From 1976-77 to 1979-80 Seattle was the best team in the league in defensive efficiency (98.1 pts/100poss allowed). They were 3rd worst in the league in offensive efficiency (99.8 pts/100poss scored), yet they had the 3rd best W-L record in the league over those 4 years. Dennis Johnson played 9530 minutes on the Sonics (close to 1/8 of the team's total minutes), no other single Sonics player played even 8000 minutes. Those 4 years he was the only Sonics player named to the all-defensive team (all-defensive 1st team in 1978-79 and 1979-80).

From 1980-81 to 1982-83 Phoenix was the best team in the league in defensive efficiency (99.6 pts/100poss allowed). They ranked just 13th in the league in offensive efficiency (104.0 pts/100poss scored), yet they had the 5th best W-L record in the league over those 3 years. Dennis Johnson played 8103 minutes on the Suns (close to 1/7 of the team's total minutes), no other single Suns player played even 7000 minutes. Those 3 years he was the only Suns player named to the all-defensive team (all-defensive 1st team all 3 seasons).

So Dennis Johnson was the best defensive player on two teams he played for that were the best defensive team in the league the whole time he was with each team and that clearly won games primarily because of their defense and not their offense.

in a league dictated by offense.

Care to try to justify this statement? How does offense dictate the league any more than defense does?

In 1980-81 the top 4 teams in W-L record were also the top 4 teams in defensive efficiency (Phoenix, Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Boston) and ranked just 3rd, 4th, 8th, and 16th in offensive efficiency.

In 1990-91 of the 9 teams that won 50+ games 8 were the top 8 teams in defensive efficiency. Of those 9 teams only 4 ranked in the top 10 in offensive efficiency.

So it appears that in the 2 seasons in question (1980-81 and 1990-91) winning was dictated more by defensive minded teams, not offensive minded teams.

I will agree that top tier team defense has historically been more effective at winning titles than top tier team offense. However, I think generally speaking over the history of the league, big man defense has been more impactful than guard defense. DJ and Sidney Moncrief led top defensive squads in the 1980s though so it's not a pure correlation.