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I wanna hear thoughts on this and how you guys would rank them 1-3 in order. Prime/Peak wise, purely quality. I feel as if Jokic’s handling issues (being a center) and difficulty to initiate offensive plays compared to other guards or point forwards is a real issue when confronted against personnel or tough defenses. Look at Denver’s ORTG when facing tough defenses such as OKC, BOS, CLE, MIA, MIL, LAC, ORL, MEM, MIN. From 2023 to 2025, it goes from 126.3 to 121.8. That is a huge drop. Jokic can definitely keep his own scoring afloat especially in how bigs usually get easier play finishing buckets typically than other all time greats who create those buckets, but the value of the scoring is also another issue in itself. It is undeniable for example to take Kobe Bryant’s scoring over some premier play finishers regardless if the scoring numbers look close. I bring up the tough defenses they face in the RS to validate the PS drop off. Because it’s pretty severe. Jokic also has direct advantage creation issues, especially as for someone who primarily does it in the interior. I’ve always thought the sets Denver run with Jokic on the ball is schemable and not difficult to break down compared to other greats. Back to the basket post ups hoping for cuts to open up won’t work, now in 2025 it’s hard to blame Jokic much as the lineups had a few non spacers. Though we still see the inconsistency in Jokic’s game before that as a playmaker come PS time. It’s also good to note Jokic probably can’t run strong offensively slanted spots on his team due to his lack of defense. Also, creating from the post is easier to scheme against if the pass goes to the perimeter, much more time to react versus a LeBron drive and kick for example. Usually we also see a pretty big drop off on the ball for Jokic, ie 21 Suns, 22 GSW (still scored amazing off ball), 23 Min, 23 Lal, 24 Min, 25 LAC and 25 OKC. In only 1 of these series does he really translate his scoring as well. Back to the on ball issue I brought up, there’s also a drastic offensive rating change without Murray on the court come PS time. It’s easily negative (-4.4 to league average). 760 minutes from 21-25.
As for Curry, I have my thoughts but I wanted to ramble about Jokic first and quickly post this question just to hear thoughts and where you guys rank them offensively. Personally, I have LeBron 1.

RS: Jokic and Curry > LeBron

PS: LeBron > Curry > Jokic

Which makes the best offensive player is a unique question. But it is interesting that the player who is behind in the regular season has the best playoff outcomes.

Curry >? Jokic >? LeBron.

They’re 3/4 of the best offensive players of the century, and probably 3/6 of the best offensive players ever. Probably any order is reasonable, depending on your preferences and what you value and the inherent uncertainty, though there are less reasonable arguments people use for/against certain players.

I don’t see curry on the other guys level. Worst scorer and passer

EmpireFalls wrote:RS: Jokic and Curry > LeBron

PS: LeBron > Curry > Jokic

Which makes the best offensive player is a unique question. But it is interesting that the player who is behind in the regular season has the best playoff outcomes.

To me, 09-10 12-14 and 17-18 LeBron are better than Curry even in the RS.

1993Playoffs wrote:I don’t see curry on the other guys level. Worst scorer and passer

Jokic is the worst scorer

Lebronnygoat wrote:I wanna hear thoughts on this and how you guys would rank them 1-3 in order. Prime/Peak wise, purely quality. I feel as if Jokic’s handling issues (being a center) and difficulty to initiate offensive plays compared to other guards or point forwards is a real issue when confronted against personnel or tough defenses. Look at Denver’s ORTG when facing tough defenses such as OKC, BOS, CLE, MIA, MIL, LAC, ORL, MEM, MIN. From 2023 to 2025, it goes from 126.3 to 121.8. That is a huge drop. Jokic can definitely keep his own scoring afloat especially in how bigs usually get easier play finishing buckets typically than other all time greats who create those buckets, but the value of the scoring is also another issue in itself. It is undeniable for example to take Kobe Bryant’s scoring over some premier play finishers regardless if the scoring numbers look close. I bring up the tough defenses they face in the RS to validate the PS drop off. Because it’s pretty severe. Jokic also has direct advantage creation issues, especially as for someone who primarily does it in the interior. I’ve always thought the sets Denver run with Jokic on the ball is schemable and not difficult to break down compared to other greats. Back to the basket post ups hoping for cuts to open up won’t work, now in 2025 it’s hard to blame Jokic much as the lineups had a few non spacers. Though we still see the inconsistency in Jokic’s game before that as a playmaker come PS time. It’s also good to note Jokic probably can’t run strong offensively slanted spots on his team due to his lack of defense. Also, creating from the post is easier to scheme against if the pass goes to the perimeter, much more time to react versus a LeBron drive and kick for example. Usually we also see a pretty big drop off on the ball for Jokic, ie 21 Suns, 22 GSW (still scored amazing off ball), 23 Min, 23 Lal, 24 Min, 25 LAC and 25 OKC. In only 1 of these series does he really translate his scoring as well. Back to the on ball issue I brought up, there’s also a drastic offensive rating change without Murray on the court come PS time. It’s easily negative (-4.4 to league average). 760 minutes from 21-25.
As for Curry, I have my thoughts but I wanted to ramble about Jokic first and quickly post this question just to hear thoughts and where you guys rank them offensively. Personally, I have LeBron 1.

As this all seems very ad hoc (a "ramble", as acknowledged by OP) so I don't know how much I want to try to pick it apart.

That said, choosing to parse offense off from defense and then argue you "probably can’t run strong offensively slanted spots on his team due to his lack of defense" ... I would argue that: (a) that isn't necessarily a given, you can win by scoring more than the opponent whether that's allowing a lot of points and scoring even more or denying a lot of points and scoring slightly more (or some in between models and models that generate greater advantage) and (b) if you want a net discussion then have a net discussion. I understand there are arguments it's hard or artificial to parse off aspects of the game to one end or the other. But if you choose to frame it as an offense comparison then saying something like "and Jokic is a bad defender so ..." feels like a way of including defense in a notionally offensive discussion. If you can't separate it then just have the net discussion.

DraymondGold wrote:Curry >? Jokic >? LeBron.

They’re 3/4 of the best offensive players of the century, and probably 3/6 of the best offensive players ever. Probably any order is reasonable, depending on your preferences and what you value and the inherent uncertainty, though there are less reasonable arguments people use for/against certain players.

3 of 6? Only Jordan enters the talk to make it become 3 out of 5. Honestly, idek if Jokic is top 4 or 5.

Lebronnygoat wrote:

DraymondGold wrote:Curry >? Jokic >? LeBron.

They’re 3/4 of the best offensive players of the century, and probably 3/6 of the best offensive players ever. Probably any order is reasonable, depending on your preferences and what you value and the inherent uncertainty, though there are less reasonable arguments people use for/against certain players.

3 of 6? Only Jordan enters the talk to make it become 3 out of 5. Honestly, idek if Jokic is top 4 or 5.

Hard not to put Magic and Nash in the conversation with the above four personally, even if you have one or both of them as the lowest of the group. And I'm not sure I do have Magic as the lowest of the group, offense-only...

Owly wrote:

Lebronnygoat wrote:I wanna hear thoughts on this and how you guys would rank them 1-3 in order. Prime/Peak wise, purely quality. I feel as if Jokic’s handling issues (being a center) and difficulty to initiate offensive plays compared to other guards or point forwards is a real issue when confronted against personnel or tough defenses. Look at Denver’s ORTG when facing tough defenses such as OKC, BOS, CLE, MIA, MIL, LAC, ORL, MEM, MIN. From 2023 to 2025, it goes from 126.3 to 121.8. That is a huge drop. Jokic can definitely keep his own scoring afloat especially in how bigs usually get easier play finishing buckets typically than other all time greats who create those buckets, but the value of the scoring is also another issue in itself. It is undeniable for example to take Kobe Bryant’s scoring over some premier play finishers regardless if the scoring numbers look close. I bring up the tough defenses they face in the RS to validate the PS drop off. Because it’s pretty severe. Jokic also has direct advantage creation issues, especially as for someone who primarily does it in the interior. I’ve always thought the sets Denver run with Jokic on the ball is schemable and not difficult to break down compared to other greats. Back to the basket post ups hoping for cuts to open up won’t work, now in 2025 it’s hard to blame Jokic much as the lineups had a few non spacers. Though we still see the inconsistency in Jokic’s game before that as a playmaker come PS time. It’s also good to note Jokic probably can’t run strong offensively slanted spots on his team due to his lack of defense. Also, creating from the post is easier to scheme against if the pass goes to the perimeter, much more time to react versus a LeBron drive and kick for example. Usually we also see a pretty big drop off on the ball for Jokic, ie 21 Suns, 22 GSW (still scored amazing off ball), 23 Min, 23 Lal, 24 Min, 25 LAC and 25 OKC. In only 1 of these series does he really translate his scoring as well. Back to the on ball issue I brought up, there’s also a drastic offensive rating change without Murray on the court come PS time. It’s easily negative (-4.4 to league average). 760 minutes from 21-25.
As for Curry, I have my thoughts but I wanted to ramble about Jokic first and quickly post this question just to hear thoughts and where you guys rank them offensively. Personally, I have LeBron 1.

As this all seems very ad hoc (a "ramble", as acknowledged by OP) so I don't know how much I want to try to pick it apart.

That said, choosing to parse offense off from defense and then argue you "probably can’t run strong offensively slanted spots on his team due to his lack of defense" ... I would argue that: (a) that isn't necessarily a given, you can win by scoring more than the opponent whether that's allowing a lot of points and scoring even more or denying a lot of points and scoring slightly more (or some in between models and models that generate greater advantage) and (b) if you want a net discussion then have a net discussion. I understand there are arguments it's hard or artificial to parse off aspects of the game to one end or the other. But if you choose to frame it as an offense comparison then saying something like "and Jokic is a bad defender so ..." feels like a way of including defense in a notionally offensive discussion. If you can't separate it then just have the net discussion.

The Nuggets want to win, if they were just trying to lead the best offense to win then they’d change their team archetypes up. It can be argued it is Jokic’s fault at center for his mediocre defense that the teams offensive pieces come PS time aren’t as good as other greats hence the offensive dip the team takes.

Lebronnygoat wrote:

Owly wrote:

Lebronnygoat wrote:I wanna hear thoughts on this and how you guys would rank them 1-3 in order. Prime/Peak wise, purely quality. I feel as if Jokic’s handling issues (being a center) and difficulty to initiate offensive plays compared to other guards or point forwards is a real issue when confronted against personnel or tough defenses. Look at Denver’s ORTG when facing tough defenses such as OKC, BOS, CLE, MIA, MIL, LAC, ORL, MEM, MIN. From 2023 to 2025, it goes from 126.3 to 121.8. That is a huge drop. Jokic can definitely keep his own scoring afloat especially in how bigs usually get easier play finishing buckets typically than other all time greats who create those buckets, but the value of the scoring is also another issue in itself. It is undeniable for example to take Kobe Bryant’s scoring over some premier play finishers regardless if the scoring numbers look close. I bring up the tough defenses they face in the RS to validate the PS drop off. Because it’s pretty severe. Jokic also has direct advantage creation issues, especially as for someone who primarily does it in the interior. I’ve always thought the sets Denver run with Jokic on the ball is schemable and not difficult to break down compared to other greats. Back to the basket post ups hoping for cuts to open up won’t work, now in 2025 it’s hard to blame Jokic much as the lineups had a few non spacers. Though we still see the inconsistency in Jokic’s game before that as a playmaker come PS time. It’s also good to note Jokic probably can’t run strong offensively slanted spots on his team due to his lack of defense. Also, creating from the post is easier to scheme against if the pass goes to the perimeter, much more time to react versus a LeBron drive and kick for example. Usually we also see a pretty big drop off on the ball for Jokic, ie 21 Suns, 22 GSW (still scored amazing off ball), 23 Min, 23 Lal, 24 Min, 25 LAC and 25 OKC. In only 1 of these series does he really translate his scoring as well. Back to the on ball issue I brought up, there’s also a drastic offensive rating change without Murray on the court come PS time. It’s easily negative (-4.4 to league average). 760 minutes from 21-25.
As for Curry, I have my thoughts but I wanted to ramble about Jokic first and quickly post this question just to hear thoughts and where you guys rank them offensively. Personally, I have LeBron 1.

As this all seems very ad hoc (a "ramble", as acknowledged by OP) so I don't know how much I want to try to pick it apart.

That said, choosing to parse offense off from defense and then argue you "probably can’t run strong offensively slanted spots on his team due to his lack of defense" ... I would argue that: (a) that isn't necessarily a given, you can win by scoring more than the opponent whether that's allowing a lot of points and scoring even more or denying a lot of points and scoring slightly more (or some in between models and models that generate greater advantage) and (b) if you want a net discussion then have a net discussion. I understand there are arguments it's hard or artificial to parse off aspects of the game to one end or the other. But if you choose to frame it as an offense comparison then saying something like "and Jokic is a bad defender so ..." feels like a way of including defense in a notionally offensive discussion. If you can't separate it then just have the net discussion.

The Nuggets want to win, if they were just trying to lead the best offense to win then they’d change their team archetypes up. It can be argued it is Jokic’s fault at center for his mediocre defense that the teams offensive pieces come PS time aren’t as good as other greats hence the offensive dip the team takes.

All teams evaluate players on both ends. If you think Jokic plays worse in certain situations and certain ways on O say that. If you think O and D can't be separated say that. I'm not following the line of logic that says we factor defense into offense because ... teammates offensive games aren't as good in the playoffs as other greats [teammates presumably] so they dip in the playoffs ... which itself doesn't particularly follow any internal train of logic so far as I can tell.

1. Curry
2. Lebron
3. Jokic

This thread has funny timing because just the last couple of days I was computing some luck-adjusted ON Court playoff data for these guys. Places like databallr.com and dunksandthrees.com do luck adjustments based on league average 3pt shooting but I think that's kind of unfair. I use the team's regular season 3pt shooting as a baseline. For example, it makes no sense to treat the 2017 Warriors as a league average shooting team and then say they overshot that % when they have Curry, Klay and KD. But it makes sense to say they are overshooting if they are way above their own regular season average.

Anyways here are the numbers for Lebron/Curry/Jokic... raw (unadjusted), 3pt luck adjusted and change. For those interested, this thread here contains their regular season numbers as well.

Lebron James ON Court ORtg (rORtg) Playoffs: Raw / 3pt Luck-Adjusted / Change

2006: 104.0 (-1.2) / 104.7 (-0.5) / +0.7
2007: 103.8 (-1.5) / 104.6 (-0.7) / +0.8
2008: 106.6 (+2.3) / 106.7 (+2.4) / +0.1
2009: 115.1 (+9.3) / 118.8 (+13.0) / +3.7
2010: 110.1 (+5.5) / 112.0 (+7.4) / +1.9
2011: 107.5 (+4.8) / 109.8 (+7.1) / +2.3
2012: 111.9 (+10.5) / 111.3 (+9.9) / -0.6
2013: 111.9 (+9.4) / 112.5 (+10.0) / +0.6
2014: 112.7 (+9.4) / 111.5 (+8.2) / -1.2
2015: 107.3 (+4.0) / 109.5 (+6.2) / +2.2
2016: 118.2 (+14.2) / 113.5 (+9.5) / -4.7
2017: 124.0 (+16.7) / 119.9 (+12.6) / -4.1
2018: 111.9 (+5.5) / 114.4 (+8.0) / +2.5
2020: 118.1 (+6.7) / 116.5 (+5.1) / -1.6
2021: 111.4 (+0.1) / 113.6 (+2.3) / +2.2
2023: 114.4 (+1.1) / 114.7 (+1.4) / +0.3
2024: 112.4 (-0.6) / 121.4 (+8.4) / +9.0
2025: 110.7 (-0.8) / 112.6 (+1.1) / +1.9

Career Average: +6.6 / +7.0 / +0.4
2009-2018 Average: +9.1 / +9.2 / +0.1

Stephen Curry ON Court ORtg (rORtg) Playoffs: Raw / 3pt Luck-Adjusted / Change

2013: 109.6 (+6.2) / 109.7 (+6.3) / +0.1
2014: 113.8 (+9.0) / 113.6 (+8.8) / -0.2
2015: 107.9 (+3.1) / 111.1 (+6.3) / +3.2
2016: 111.4 (+5.7) / 113.7 (+8.0) / +2.3
2017: 126.0 (+18.5) / 122.9 (+15.4) / -3.1
2018: 116.2 (+7.4) / 117.7 (+8.9) / +1.5
2019: 117.5 (+7.5) / 119.2 (+9.2) / +1.7
2022: 117.7 (+8.3) / 116.8 (+7.4) / -0.9
2023: 115.8 (+0.4) / 120.4 (+5.0) / +4.6
2025: 117.6 (+6.4) / 114.4 (+2.8) / -3.6

Career Average: +7.6 / +8.3 / +0.7
2013-2022 Average: +8.3 / +9.0 / +0.7

Nikola Jokic ON Court ORtg (rORtg) Playoffs: Raw / 3pt Luck-Adjusted / Change

2019: 115.8 (+4.9) / 118.6 (+7.7) / +2.8
2020: 115.5 (+7.6) / 110.6 (+2.7) / -4.9
2021: 116.3 (+2.6) / 115.1 (+1.4) / -1.2
2022: 110.9 (+4.0) / 112.5 (+5.6) / +1.6
2023: 120.9 (+7.4) / 121.9 (+8.4) / +1.0
2024: 114.3 (+2.1) / 117.6 (+5.4) / +3.3
2025: 111.7 (+2.8) / 114.9 (+6.0) / +3.2

2019-2025 Average: +5.1 / +5.5 / +0.4

Raw Playoff rORtg Rank:

2009-2018 Lebron: +9.1
2013-2022 Steph: +8.3
2019-2025 Jokic: +5.1

Luck-Adjusted Playoff rORtg Rank:

2009-2018 Lebron: +9.2
2013-2022 Steph: +9.0
2019-2025 Jokic: +5.5

Regular Season rORtg Rank:

2013-2022 Steph: +8.3
2019-2025 Jokic: +8.1
2009-2018 Lebron: +8.0

Some conclusions I draw from this:

Luck adjustment doesn't do a whole lot to move the picture on a longer time scale (i.e. over an entire career) though it does narrow the gap between Lebron and Steph. From year to year though, we can definitely see the oscillations caused by shooting luck. As we'd expect, with correcting for shooting luck, these players' offensive production while ON court becomes much more more stable from year to year. Suddenly those super high peaks come down a bit and those low points get a little boost.

It's definitely clear from doing this analysis that Jokic is a distant third. His peak regular season metrics are arguably a little better than Lebron's; his regular season highs of +12.6 in 2025 and +10.8 in 2023 are higher than any Lebron ever put up but his playoff numbers just don't even come close. For multiyear primes, the regular season peaks are close between these three guys but Jokic's playoff numbers just don't hold a candle to the other two. So it's between Steph and Lebron.

As I did in prior comparisons as well, I comfortably lean towards Curry. He's basically Lebron's equal in the playoffs while being better in the regular season. Even in pre-Durant seasons, his two best regular seasons are +11.0 and +12.6 which is comically good. Lebron's career high is +10.6 in 2013. And as a contextual factor, I don't find Steph's supporting casts to be that impressive on the offensive end. The defense was impressive with Draymond, Iggy, Bogut and Klay was alsoa good defender but on offense, that team sans Curry just doesn't look strong in the pre-Durant years and yet Curry was giving them a huge lift and had them playing like a GOAT-tier offensive team when he was on the floor. Compared to Steph, Lebron took stronger casts on offense (Wade/Bosh + shooters and Kyrie/Love + shooters) to lesser heights in the RS and then comparable heights in the PS.

Steph > Lebron >> Jokic