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I've always been a huge fan of James Harden, starting his Rocket career till now. He had a lot of pretty dazzling honors as an individual player:

1. NBA MVP (2018)
2. 10× NBA All-Star (2013–2022)
3. 6× All-NBA First Team (2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020)
4. All-NBA Third Team (2013)
5. NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2012)
6. 3× NBA Scoring Champion (2018, 2019, 2020)
7. NBA Assists Leader (2017)

But he has been criticized for not being able to carry the team further in playoffs. What status should such a player have when he's retired?

I think most would have him somewhere between 25-40 all time. I'd say his prime may have ended at the age of 30 though and he's only made one all nba team since then and that was last year. Being top 3 in mvp voting 5x is impressive as well as 6x all nba 1st team. He only made it out of the 2nd rd twice though after leaving Okc. So I think anywhere between 25-40 is fair. You could maybe argue him ahead of someone like Nash but he's sort of polarizing.

Somewhere between Gervin/Rick Barry and Dantley/King

He wouldnt make my top 75.

It’s a bit of an arbitrary stat, but Harden has a 4 year stretch of consecutive top 3 MVP finishes.

That’s tie with Kobe and Duncan, more than Curry, Giannis, Shaq.

trelos6 wrote:It’s a bit of an arbitrary stat, but Harden has a 4 year stretch of consecutive top 3 MVP finishes.

That’s tie with Kobe and Duncan, more than Curry, Giannis, Shaq.

It is ... because
1) it's not clear that consecutive has any value
2) 3rd could achieved in many different ways ... in a massively split widely dispersed field it could theoretically be a tiny vote share or it could be something akin to 1990 where the top 3 are all above .600 MVP Shares.
3) MVP is only an indirect measure of players
4) MVP is restricted to the regular season (a huge deal for many posters here)

I don't know, if it's just trivia, or I suppose a "discussion starter" ... fair enough. But if you actually want to put him in a position akin to that suggested by the relative position to the names mentioned ... a stronger argument may be required.

hes been robbed of several other all-nba/ all-star selections by the biased nba voters

nba players who have played againist both, will tell you harden is the sueprior player. Its just the voters in the league are the ones with the actual power

Whichever status you give a guy like Charles Barkley, Bob Pettit... He's that kind of player. A secondary but very strong counterpart to the really dominant teams/players.

Warspite wrote:Somewhere between Gervin/Rick Barry and Dantley/King

He wouldnt make my top 75.

Harden is definitely top 75 (I don't like him as a player, he is vastly overrated, 2nd or 3rd tier of overrated players). Top 40, even. There is no case for him out the top 75, I would like to hear the case why he would be outside of the top 75.

2nd Tier all-time guard. Not in the discussion for top guard ever - Magic, Jordan, Curry. But I think pretty reasonable against anyone else (though I find I usually go with Kobe for #4, accomplishment gap from him to anyone else in tier 2 is significant). Roughly a 4-8 tier with Kobe/Oscar/West/CP3 that you can order depending on what you value. A step above the next group with more notable flaws in their career resumes - Nash, Westbrook, Wade, Stockton, maybe a few others (Cousy/Frazier/Drexler/Kidd/etc).

I think most would have him somewhere between 25-40 all time.

I think not.

He wouldnt make my top 75.

Nor mine.

There is no case for him out the top 75, I would like to hear the case why he would be outside of the top 75.

Listening?

In 8 full seasons with Houston (ages 23-30) scored the most points - by far - of any player in the league, was 3rd in assists.

But also averaged 360 TO/3000min during that time and was a poor, lousy defender. In that age range that is - by far - the highest/worst per minute turnover rate by an SG. As a matter of fact from the ages of 23-30 his 2729 turnovers are - by far - the most by any guard in league history.

Always think of him as an SG, and would not take his prime over the prime of any of these SGs - West, Dennis Johnson, Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Jordan, Bryant, Gervin, Drexler, Wade, Ginobili, and Jimmy Butler.

kcktiny wrote:(...) would not take his prime over the prime of any of these SGs - (...) Alvin Robertson

Welp, that's surely a first.

He is in the same general tier as Barkley, but slightly below Barkley.

Owly wrote:

trelos6 wrote:It’s a bit of an arbitrary stat, but Harden has a 4 year stretch of consecutive top 3 MVP finishes.

That’s tie with Kobe and Duncan, more than Curry, Giannis, Shaq.

It is ... because
1) it's not clear that consecutive has any value
2) 3rd could achieved in many different ways ... in a massively split widely dispersed field it could theoretically be a tiny vote share or it could be something akin to 1990 where the top 3 are all above .600 MVP Shares.
3) MVP is only an indirect measure of players
4) MVP is restricted to the regular season (a huge deal for many posters here)

I don't know, if it's just trivia, or I suppose a "discussion starter" ... fair enough. But if you actually want to put him in a position akin to that suggested by the relative position to the names mentioned ... a stronger argument may be required.

Harden actually ranks really high when it comes to MVP shares.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/nba_mvp_shares.html

Agree that he's modern era Barkley, that's also how I have seen him for many years. So top 30 all-time player, a little higher than Charles even, with huge impact on the game during his prime time, and strong RS/MVP profile (top 15 ever).

Welp, that's surely a first.

Perhaps if you actually knew who Alvin Robertson was you would understand.

LOL @ not top-75 all-time.

I am not a fan of him in the slightest. Some of y'all are ridiculously unreasonable and exercise little-to-no objectivity or critical thinking whatsoever.

frica wrote:

Owly wrote:

trelos6 wrote:It’s a bit of an arbitrary stat, but Harden has a 4 year stretch of consecutive top 3 MVP finishes.

That’s tie with Kobe and Duncan, more than Curry, Giannis, Shaq.

It is ... because
1) it's not clear that consecutive has any value
2) 3rd could achieved in many different ways ... in a massively split widely dispersed field it could theoretically be a tiny vote share or it could be something akin to 1990 where the top 3 are all above .600 MVP Shares.
3) MVP is only an indirect measure of players
4) MVP is restricted to the regular season (a huge deal for many posters here)

I don't know, if it's just trivia, or I suppose a "discussion starter" ... fair enough. But if you actually want to put him in a position akin to that suggested by the relative position to the names mentioned ... a stronger argument may be required.

Harden actually ranks really high when it comes to MVP shares.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/nba_mvp_shares.html

It's more about a bad measure than against Harden, though I think using the suggested bad means to argue for Harden would overrate Harden.

The reality of Harden's MVP Shares would mitigate point 2. But not the rest. Whilst better than just the finish, changes in the MVP voting system mean they can't necessarily be compared across all eras.

Amares wrote:Agree that he's modern era Barkley, that's also how I have seen him for many years. So top 30 all-time player, a little higher than Charles even, with huge impact on the game during his prime time, and strong RS/MVP profile (top 15 ever).

Per above ... he's 14th in MVP Shares, but with different ballot systems it isn't era neutral. It might be marginally influenced by rounding but for instance in 1960 there are 1.801 MVP Shares dispersed, in 2025 2.6. One could argue this is "correct" with non-first rankings being a lower percentile in a concentrated league than in a larger league but it isn't a given. It is possible that with a fuller ballot (or perhaps artificially shortening real ones - actually do-able) someone like Pettit, Robertson might come out ahead. Otoh, it's safer to say he's in that 15 threshold region on the MVP side, though I'm open to someone going through it and offering something more concrete.

Top 16-25 player, but closer to the end of that range. Below the likes of Dirk & CP3, but above guys in the Barkley, Kobe tier.

kcktiny wrote:

Welp, that's surely a first.

Perhaps if you actually knew who Alvin Robertson was you would understand.

Maybe he does and he still thinks it’s an unreasonable opinion?

Maybe less condescension and more thorough explanation is warranted on your part to so confidently say that a 4 time All-Star who never finished top 10 in MVP voting and made one All-NBA team in his career is better than James Harden?

Why not Andre Iguodala as well?

It’s fun to hate on Harden’s defense. I do it all the time myself. But that’s not a reason to take clearly inferior players over him just because they were great defensively. I also don’t see any significant reason to believe that his defense had more negative impact than someone like Barkley for example. Magic Johnson wasn’t that good on defense either.

Maybe he does and he still thinks it’s an unreasonable opinion?

Is this him saying this or you? You feel you have the right to speak for others now?

Maybe less condescension and more thorough explanation

What part of 360 TO/3000min over 8 seasons (or 370 TO/season and 397 TO/3000min 2015-16 to 2019-20) and poor, lousy defender don't you understand? That not thorough enough for you?

to so confidently say that a 4 time All-Star who never finished top 10 in MVP voting and made one All-NBA team in his career is better than James Harden?

Who was also one of the greatest shot defenders in league history for a guard that also forced turnovers at an extraordinarily high rate that was all-defensive team 6 times.

Why not Andre Iguodala as well?

Great question.

But just a 2 time all-defensive team nomination that did not force turnovers at anywhere near the rate Robertson did, and also played primarily SF and we are discussing SGs here.

It’s fun to hate on Harden’s defense. I do it all the time myself.

So you acknowledge his poor defense? Good - but you clearly have no idea of the negative impact of such a poor defender.

But that’s not a reason to take clearly inferior players over him just because they were great defensively.

Clearly inferior? So now you are the RealGM resident expert of NBA player evaluation? You make this sound like this is a clear-cut case with no questionable discussion. So if that's the case...

...then why don't you explain to us how a player that in his prime (8 years with Houston) that scored 30 pts/g but committed 340+ turnovers per season while being a poor defender is a better player that a top shot defender for a guard that forced turnovers at the highest rate ever for a guard (233 steals/season) over 7 prime seasons, one of the greatest if not the greatest SG defender in league history, that also during his 7 year prime ranked:

- 1st among all SGs in steals (1664)
- 2nd among all SGs in offensive rebounds (1288)
- 3rd among all SGs in defensive rebounds (1902)
- 2nd among all SGs in rebounds (3190)
- 2nd among all SGs in assists (3068)
- 4th among all SGs in blocks (245)
- 8th among all SGs in points scored (8820)

So come on dude, if prime Robertson is so clearly inferior to Prime Harden how about you explain why?

I also don’t see any significant reason to believe that his defense had more negative impact

Because you have no clue how to evaluate defense and thus choose to ignore it like it does not have any impact.

Want proof?

From the ages of 23-30 Harden scored 29.6 pts/g, Michael Jordan 33.2 pts/g. Who was the worse player, and was that player clearly inferior, and if so why?

How many more (or less) games do the Bulls win in a season with prime Harden as their SG rather than prime Jordan? How about with prime Robertson?

Should be easy for you since you say you know that Robertson was clearly inferior to Harden.

This should be fun.