Most Dominant Ever - Point Guards

[rrravenred]

Which player has been the most dominating PG in the history of the league?

A lot of people will write something along the lines of:

"Magic. [/thread]"

... but I think there are a couple of other candidates who could possible challenge for the role. IT, Clyde, Payton, even Oscar if you count him as a PG. These were two-way players who impacted the game on both ends. Magic's offensive dominance (buttressed by a pretty decent supporting cast) is a very convincing argument all by itself... but do any of his elite PG peers challenge him via their defence or team organisation?

[EHL]

Payton does challenge Magic as a versatile player, but falls well short in obvious intangible departments such as court vision and efficiency as a dribbler, shooter, teammate, etc. Magic's D wasn't really that bad, he was definitely above average and played the passing lanes especially well, since he rarely gambled (1.9 spg for his career). I've seen enough of Big O to say he probably has a case, though his D never especially stood out in my mind and I definitely don't consider him superior to Magic. Payton definitely stands out in this discussion though; quickest lateral mobility I've ever seen at his size and just had tremendous anticipation. I might even mention Kidd, as he has always been a hugely underrated defender IMO. If only he weren't such a good awful shooter and inefficient scorer.

Still, pretty clearly this is Magic without question.

[tkb]

Magic is my man as far as point guards are concerned IMO. The better debate would be who the second most dominant point guard of all time was, though if you classify Oscar Robertson as a point (which I do), that becomes quite an easy choice too. The real debate for me is the 3rd spot.

At this point I have;
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Debatable

[Myth_Breaker]

As I've just mentioned in the thread on Cs, to me the most dominant means simply the best overall. Hence the relevant debate as to PGs must focus on Magic and Oscar. And there's no basis for neither saying "Magic without a question" (that just shows lacks of knowledge) or for doubting Oscar's classification as a PG (you could then doubt Magic's classification as well: he was more pass-first player than Big O, but on the other hand was even more unprotypical PG from physical standpoint).

Actually, if you mean only more tangible aspects, you may come to conclusion that Oscar was even better than Magic: there was hardly any player who dominated so much all facets of the game. Robertson could do on the court pretty much everything what Magic could PLUS was 30-ppg scorer. Yet taking into account intangibles, first of all superior leadership, I'd rank Magic higher. But please don't act like it's foregone conclusion that Johnson was better: despite passing so many years, still Oscar defeats him in many all-time comparisons, and I've already reminded on these boards that the man with highest qualifications to compare both in Kareem actually rated Robertson higher!

[tkb]

Well. There is no secret that Kareem and Magic weren't the best of friends during their playing days. Saying that Kareem's opinion is the most qualified is like asking Shaq who he rated higher between Wade and Kobe 2-3 years ago. Shaq said Wade was already better than Bryant, but most other qualified experts said otherwise.

Magic had Shaq on his all time team, and left of Kareem as well. Doesn't mean I'm going to knock Shaq relative to Kareem because Magic is the player that knows Kareem's game the most.

[Teddy KGB]

I would take Magic without a doubt at #1 and then I would go with a prime Jason Kidd at #2. This is probably very controversial, but a prime J-Kidd locked down the opposing PG while making every one on his team better on offense. All this while being a triple double threat at all times. Not that I think he would be the clear cut #2, guys like Zeke and the Glove would give him a definite run for his money but I would personally take Kidd.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, didn't count Oscar since I'm not old enough to have seen him play.

[Myth_Breaker]

Well. There is no secret that Kareem and Magic weren't the best of friends during their playing days. Saying that Kareem's opinion is the most qualified is like asking Shaq who he rated higher between Wade and Kobe 2-3 years ago. Shaq said Wade was already better than Bryant, but most other qualified experts said otherwise.

If you think Oscar and Kareem were more friends than Magic and KAJ, you are wrong. Kareem was distant from Big O as well (well, he practically kept distance from everyone): so I reckon he could be objective there. Either way, I've already said I differ from Kareem about that; while if I agreed with him, I wouldn't base it solely on his opinion, but on many other existing pro-Oscar arguments. Yet voice of such great shouldn't be underestimated.

Magic had Shaq on his all time team, and left of Kareem as well.

Didn't see that, but I suppose it was during era when Shaq played for us and, as usual, desperately needed ego-massaging whenever possible, so Magic was taking care of his interests as Lakers part-owner by helping Diesel feel better.

Doesn't mean I'm going to knock Shaq relative to Kareem because Magic is the player that knows Kareem's game the most.

[Julio]

Magic is the first for me as well.
As for 2nd, I'm actually torn between Walt and Big O.Big O was really great, but so was Frazier.

[tkb]

No, it was after Shaq went to the Heat in a book where all time greats got to compose their all time teams. Shaq was a backup on Magic's team and Kareem was nowhere to be found.

[Point forward]

Isiah Thomas was pretty deadly as a PG. Remember Game 6 in the 1988 NBA Finals where he drilled 43 points, 8 rebounds and 8 assists into Magic Johnson on a sprained ankle?

http://www.nba.com/history/isiahheroic_moments.html

[penbeast0]

This wasn't about the best . . . . that's Magic and it's been done a million times. It was about the most dominant, the guy who singlehandedly took over the game the most. Therefore the top choice is almost certainly Oscar, with second up between Jerry West (yes, he was a PG, he led his team in assists every year but his rookie one and was up around 9=10 assists/game for a long time), Magic, Payton, and Pete Maravich (AI would be here too if he were playing PG during his mad gunner heyday).

Frazier, Stockton, Kidd . . . those guys were consumate point guards but they didn't tend to take over whole games, only stretches. Instead they made sure that their teammates are involved and active . . . same reason Magic isn't number one on my list.

Oscar
Maravich
West
Magic
Payton

[hermes]

Oscar
Maravich
West
Magic
Payton

[tsherkin]

I take Magic, no hesitation.

[Caveat] I do so because of preference of Magic's style and greater height, not because I believe there to be a significant gap between the two players ITO their ability. [/Caveat]

Oscar Robertson was a phenomenal player and quite versatile and he was the prototype for the type of player that Magic became, the big guard who could play in the post, rebound, pass and what-not but Magic was better at it, IMO.

It's tough to make a call about Oscar; it's clear that his rebounding wasn't superior to Magic's, that it was in fact more of a product of pace and minutes played. The two were roughly equivalent. If you have a peek at Al Hoffman's adjusted stats for Oscar's first eight years (his most significant years statistically), they come out as:

26.6/7.1/9.5
26.8/9.0/11.2
25.4/8.1/9.8
29.2/7.8/12.1
28.3/6.9/12.9
27.9/5.9/11.5
26.9/4.7/11.2
25.8/4.7/10.0

Notably, Oscar remains the more significant scorer and actually peaks noticeably higher than Magic as a passer (using the adjusted stats for Magic). Magic turns out to be the noticeably superior rebounder and having a couple more seasons of 10+ apg. You could make the argument that they produced in that category at roughly the same level, though Oscar was actually adamant about not being a flashy player and Magic embodied Showtime heart and soul, so he often threw passes Oscar would not likely even consider; he did his thing more by brute force and relentless pressure.

Of course, it's at this time you notice that under the adjusted stats, Magic still has 2 more seasons with 10+ apg and he's playing a career average of roughly 5 fewer minutes per game. Magic's career-high in MPG was actually 38.3; Oscar played 11 consecutive seasons higher than that, including 10 of them at or over 41.5 MPG. In his first 10 seasons, Oscar actually played an average of 44 MPG, which is of course 7 minutes higher than Magic's career average over his 13-year career. Something to consider. Also worthy of mention is that he played his first few years with Norm Nixon, who was averaging 8+ apg and taking ball-handling duties away from him.

I don't think anyone else is in this discussion; you can mention Jerry West, you can talk about Walt Frazier, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, you can talk about whomever you like but really IMO, Oscar Robertson and Magic are the only two guards here who count...

And the big question is actually "was Oscar a 1 or a 2 guard?" If you believe he was more of a dominant ball-handling two, then he's inadmissible and this is Magic no-contest. If you believe he was more like a scoring version of Magic, then you have some trouble.

Personally, I would prefer Magic; he's taller and more capable of working inside, he keeps fans in the seats more and he facilitates the offense by not demanding the ball. High-volume scorers are a sort of Catch-22 because the ball stays in their hands so long that it takes away from the rest of the players. It's easier with big men because the big guys are usually looking to post, re-post, see if they have something and then kick it out, swing it around, etc. Good big men, even as high volume scorers, are looking to facilitate ball movement because it makes things easier for them.

Wing scorers, even post-up guards like Oscar (or Gary Payton, or analagously Charles Barkley, who was sized more like a guard) aren't really great for offensive flow. Oscar was as technically proficient a player as you'll find, which is why he's often referred to as the most fundamentally skilled player in the game.

He made it his business to score in the mid-ranged area, which is why he had a FG% as a guard that approached that of Wilt Chamberlain and was something like 4% above league average (league average, not league average for guards). He was a most impressive player.

But I'd still take Magic, especially if we're talking about the modern era; Oscar's size would actually make him more like a small-to-average guard in the contemporary league, though given his strength he'd probably end up maybe a bit like Corey Maggette; his height wouldn't be an advantage, is my point. He would still be an astonishing talent but I think he'd be at least partially diminished by that, though maybe it'd be off-set by the stupid perimeter D rules that would let him get to the line at will like Kobe, Wade, AI and... of all people... Gilbert Arenas.

But Magic's size would remain advantageous and his versatility would be greater and he was the better passer. The more skilled passer. He would take more chances, sure, but they produced results and Magic had that ineffable quality about him where he would raise the level of play of his teammates by getting them looks that few other people could have managed.

There is not, however, a big gap between the two, I mean you're talking about top 10 players here... top 5, top 6 even, so there really isn't going to be massive separation and it'll largely come down to preference and semantic arguments.

Oscar Robertson was an outstanding player.

[rrravenred]

Tsherkin, do you rate defensive prowess in your comparision? That's the reason I included Clyde (and to a lesser extent Payton) in my OP, as he had a defensive impact on the court that (for want of a better word) dominated...

If we only look at assists+points I think we're concentrating on the offensive side only. Granted, given that the PG's primary role is on that end of the floor it's a valid method, but I'm wondering to what extent D matters...

[penbeast0]

If Oscar is a ball-dominant two, then Magic is a point forward so the whole comparisom is moot; Oscar was about as pure a point as anyone who scored the way he did could possibly be. Magic is the greatest PG ever, Oscar is the most dominant, and Jerry West was not a 2 . . . book it.

Oh, and I forgot one other player who was dominant at the point (other than Cousy, who wouldn't make my list) . . . prime Tiny; Nate Archibald singlehandedly carried that team night in and night out in Kansas City.

[Turisas]

Isiah Thomas was pretty deadly as a PG. Remember Game 6 in the 1988 NBA Finals where he drilled 43 points, 8 rebounds and 8 assists into Magic Johnson on a sprained ankle?

http://www.nba.com/history/isiahheroic_moments.html

Impressive but the Pistons lost the game and Zeke didn't spray his ankle until the game was already 32 minutes old.

[tsherkin]

If Oscar is a ball-dominant two, then Magic is a point forward so the whole comparisom is moot; Oscar was about as pure a point as anyone who scored the way he did could possibly be. Magic is the greatest PG ever, Oscar is the most dominant, and Jerry West was not a 2 . . . book it.

Sure, they're just different labels but Magic didn't dominate the ball the way Oscar did, he moved it a lot more frequently. Oscar pounded the defense relentlessly from the post and looked to score CONSIDERABLY more than Magic did. He was a scorer, unlike Magic.

Oscar was, IMO, definitively not a PG the same way Allen Iverson is not a point guard when he takes 20+ shots a game (or rather when he has historically averaged over 20 shots). When you get down to around 16, 17 shots, that's about the peak of what I would consider a point guard versus a scoring point or an off-guard.

The labels aren't super important, I take Magic either way, but my point was to show that role-wise, they differ significantly because of the volume of scoring attempts Oscar had.

Tsherkin, do you rate defensive prowess in your comparision? That's the reason I included Clyde (and to a lesser extent Payton) in my OP, as he had a defensive impact on the court that (for want of a better word) dominated...

If we only look at assists+points I think we're concentrating on the offensive side only. Granted, given that the PG's primary role is on that end of the floor it's a valid method, but I'm wondering to what extent D matters...

Sure but the essence of being a point guard is their ability to distribute, so the defensive side, while important, is only secondary.

Frazier certainly deserves consideration and it's worth noting that his passing volume was suppressed by Holzman's system but he still doesn't touch what Magic could do for a team with his offense. Frazier, I would put over Payton, but not over Magic.

[Myth_Breaker]

This wasn't about the best . . . . that's Magic and it's been done a million times. It was about the most dominant, the guy who singlehandedly took over the game the most. Therefore the top choice is almost certainly Oscar, with second up between Jerry West (yes, he was a PG, he led his team in assists every year but his rookie one and was up around 9=10 assists/game for a long time), Magic, Payton, and Pete Maravich (AI would be here too if he were playing PG during his mad gunner heyday).

Frazier, Stockton, Kidd . . . those guys were consumate point guards but they didn't tend to take over whole games, only stretches. Instead they made sure that their teammates are involved and active . . . same reason Magic isn't number one on my list.

Oscar
Maravich
West
Magic
Payton

Hey, we've got another definition of dominance: dominant PG is a guy who can singlehandedly take the game over in offense! Yet I don't reckon it's very proper definition cause it fits more to SGs/SFs, who are suppose to dominate the game singlehandedly, while point guards, on the contrary, are supposed to involve other guys. Moreover, such definition of dominance would be unfair to bigs: they are more dependent on others to get the ball, so less capable of taking over the games in this manner. But reality proves they are the most impactful=dominant...

If West is PG because was leading his team in assists, we can consider PG guys like Kobe, LeBron, Paul Pressey... Somehow I don't think it's correct, especially as could apply also to Wilt in Sixers.

Last thing: correct me if I'm wrong, but dominating games by Maravich didn't do much good for his teams...

[Myth_Breaker]

All's fine, tsherkin, but these 2 quotes:

"Oscar's size would actually make him more like a small-to-average guard in the contemporary league, though given his strength he'd probably end up maybe a bit like Corey Maggette; his height wouldn't be an advantage, is my point. He would still be an astonishing talent but I think he'd be at least partially diminished by that, though maybe it'd be off-set by the stupid perimeter D rules that would let him get to the line at will like Kobe, Wade, AI and... of all people... Gilbert Arenas."

That's simply untrue. Even measured barefoot and with college weight not updated, Oscar was 6-5, 220. In current NBA it would translate to like 6-6, 230, what is above average even for SGs alone, clearly above average for guards overall, and would mean that Big O would be the BIGGEST starting PG just now - and playing him there would be the most probable solution considering scoring points are now far more popular than before.

"Oscar was, IMO, definitively not a PG the same way Allen Iverson is not a point guard when he takes 20+ shots a game (or rather when he has historically averaged over 20 shots). When you get down to around 16, 17 shots, that's about the peak of what I would consider a point guard versus a scoring point or an off-guard."

So scoring point is not a point? I happen to think otherwise: playing at 1 even AI is still PG, though not great as such due to not involving partners enough - unlike Oscar. Honestly, I don't get this affinity for changing labels like claiming that Big O was SG, though during his career was obviously considered PG - what is even more funny when on the other hand you hear voices that West should be classified as PG instead of SG, though taking into account proportion of shots to assists, there are better reasons to classify Oscar as PG than in case of West. Let's just reverse all old labels: Happy Hairston was Lakers C, while Wilt - his sidekick PF!

[penbeast0]

Magic was a scoring guard, he had at least 4 seasons over 20 ppg; Bob Cousy was a scoring guard, he had at least 4 seasons over 20 ppg, obviously neither were point guards either.

Sheesh