Prime Penny Hardaway vs Brandon Roy

[candy for lunch]

Hmm, yeah I'll change my vote to Roy too

[tkb]

Penny is one of the best guards I have ever seen when it comes to low block play.

Penny in his prime is a severely better player than Roy is now, but Roy could end up as the better player if he keeps working hard and improves even more. Right now though, this is Penny without too much doubt IMO.

[CzBoobie]

There is only one guard who could really challenge Penny for the best guard spot these days and his name really isn't Roy.

[dbodner]

Roy's probably going to have the better career, but Penny's skillset at his peak was higher IMO.

[Wizenheimer]

Roy's probably going to have the better career, but Penny's skillset at his peak was higher IMO.

if you'll allow me to respectfully question this assertion...primarily because I'm not sure what you mean by 'skillset'....

Roy now, and Hardaway in his first years in Orlando play(ed) the same roles: as primary ball handlers and having the responsibility for initiating the offense. As I pointed out earlier, when numbers are adjusted for the faster tempo a dozen years ago, Roy's scoring and assist numbers are comparable to penny's best years, and his rebounding numbers are better.

It would then also be a significant factor that Penny was not the primary focus of opponents defenses, Shaq was, and that opened up things for Penny that allowed him to increase his scoring and assists.

On the other hand, Roy is absolutely the primary focus of portland's oppnents' defenses every single game.

So it could be rationally argued that Roy's numbers are more 'significant' then Penny's. It could be but it shouldn't be primarily because it's just too small a sample size. Roy's only done that for a little more then 1/3 a season and frankly, penny's injuries curtailed what could have been a spectacular career.

In any event, if that 'skillset' doesn't yield superior scoring, shooting, rebounding, or assist numbers, it might not be a superior skillset.

Where Penny had/the advantage over the yet-to-reach-his-prime Roy is in his length. He is taller and he has longer arms. And he was probably a little quicker as well, although that's not certain. He was better at steals and playing passing lanes, and he played above the rim more the Roy does. Roy's athleticism is generally underestimated at RealGM, sometimes by a lot, but I'd give the athletic edge to penny. I'd give the basketball IQ edge to Roy though, and he is remarkable at playing under control as well as affecting the game.

[Kweli]

When did Penny lead a team on his own without a dominant big man to a 50 + win season.

When did Roy do that?

[B-Scott]

He's going to do it this year. Maybe not exactly 50 wins,but i see Portland winning between 46 and 50 games and thats without Greg Oden. I think that's very impressive considering nobody would have expected that.

[yo_penny1]

Wizenheimer

Do you agree that during the 90's players were allowed to play tougher stronger defense when guarding players? and that nowadays players points per game averages are inflated slightly compared to back in the mid 90's?

I agree that Penny was more athletic but I also believe he has the higher IQ compared to Roy. We never got to see a Prime Penny hardaway which is sad but the closest "prime" season would have been 1995. People would say that Penny was arguably the second best player behind Jordan back in the mid 90's would you put Roy in that same level?

[Goldbum]

I'm a Blazer fan and I would take prime Penny 7 days a week. I will say something else though I think Roy is more of a winner, a better locker room guy, and a better team mate.

Penny's talent however was 'SuperNova.

[Pattycakes]

Brandon Roy right now is a top 7 MVP candidate and only in his 3rd season. He has led Portland to a great start despite Greg Oden missing the entire season.

From a talent standpoint, i dont see where Penny has this huge advantage. I watched Penny in the 1990s. Very athletic, 6-7 could get to the basket and create. Played the point,but could also play the 3 and 2 positions.

Brandon Roy has that same ability,but the difference i see is i think Roy has a better Mid-Range jumper and creates his Mid-Range jumper much better then Penny did which i think will make Roy a better 4th quarter clutch player. He's able to create that seperation with consistency and pull up for that 15 to 18 footer.

Your ignorance fascinates me.

And I'm a blazer fan.

[Wizenheimer]

Wizenheimer

Do you agree that during the 90's players were allowed to play tougher stronger defense when guarding players? and that nowadays players points per game averages are inflated slightly compared to back in the mid 90's?

no, I don't really agree. Teams weren't allowed to play zone defenses back then like they can now for one thing.

In any event, Orlando in Penny's "prime" scored about 10 points a game more then portland now. Kind of a league wide event by the way. So for this specific comparison's sake, relative league defenses aren't really relevant.

I agree that Penny was more athletic but I also believe he has the higher IQ compared to Roy. We never got to see a Prime Penny hardaway which is sad but the closest "prime" season would have been 1995. People would say that Penny was arguably the second best player behind Jordan back in the mid 90's would you put Roy in that same level?

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton
Chris Webber

Those are some of the players that were still playing and playing very well in 1995.

Whoever the "people" are who are saying Penny was better then all those players are simply delusional. For chrissakes, Penny wasn't even the best player on his team. The assertion he was the 2nd best behind jordan is just not credible, especially when you look at that list.

In Penny's best year he averaged 21.7 points and 7 assists. Those are not HOF numbers. When adjusted for pace, Roy's numbers this year are comparable, and he's reached that level in less time then Hardaway did.

I think in that short window of time when Penny was healthy he was probably a better player then Roy is now during his 92 game career. But the gap between them is a lot smaller then some of the posters in this thread have implied. And the gap will continue to close this season. And next season, when and if Oden becomes a force in the paint, giving Roy a similar advantage to what Penny had with Shaq, there could still be a gap, but it may very well be in Roy's favor.

[CousinOfDeath]

Wizenheimer

Do you agree that during the 90's players were allowed to play tougher stronger defense when guarding players? and that nowadays players points per game averages are inflated slightly compared to back in the mid 90's?

no, I don't really agree. Teams weren't allowed to play zone defenses back then like they can now for one thing.

In any event, Orlando in Penny's "prime" scored about 10 points a game more then portland now. Kind of a league wide event by the way. So for this specific comparison's sake, relative league defenses aren't really relevant.

I agree that Penny was more athletic but I also believe he has the higher IQ compared to Roy. We never got to see a Prime Penny hardaway which is sad but the closest "prime" season would have been 1995. People would say that Penny was arguably the second best player behind Jordan back in the mid 90's would you put Roy in that same level?

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton
Chris Webber

Those are some of the players that were still playing and playing very well in 1995.

Whoever the "people" are who are saying Penny was better then all those players are simply delusional. For chrissakes, Penny wasn't even the best player on his team. The assertion he was the 2nd best behind jordan is just not credible, especially when you look at that list.

In Penny's best year he averaged 21.7 points and 7 assists. Those are not HOF numbers. When adjusted for pace, Roy's numbers this year are comparable, and he's reached that level in less time then Hardaway did.

I think in that short window of time when Penny was healthy he was probably a better player then Roy is now during his 92 game career. But the gap between them is a lot smaller then some of the posters in this thread have implied. And the gap will continue to close this season. And next season, when and if Oden becomes a force in the paint, giving Roy a similar advantage to what Penny had with Shaq, there could still be a gap, but it may very well be in Roy's favor.

You don't get it. Penny wasn't playing at his best yet, he was still getting better, but then he got injured. And he STILL was better than Roy in most aspects.

[gavran]

Penny was a first teamer (twice) in the era where players like Stockton, Payton, Miller, Drexler, Tim Hardaway played. Roy would be lucky if he will be in the 3rd team, and there are no Jordans today. Also Penny was 3rd in the MVP voting, and got as many 1st place votes as the other players combined, not named Jordan of course. So until Roy does something significant don't compare him to the player Jordan said he's confident to pass the tourch to. As for having a better carrier...I don't doubt that when it's all said and done Roy will have a better one....it's not that hard...he just has to stay healthy.

[tnayrbrocks]

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton
Chris Webber

Those are some of the players that were still playing and playing very well in 1995.

Whoever the "people" are who are saying Penny was better then all those players are simply delusional. For chrissakes, Penny wasn't even the best player on his team. The assertion he was the 2nd best behind jordan is just not credible, especially when you look at that list.

In Penny's best year he averaged 21.7 points and 7 assists. Those are not HOF numbers. When adjusted for pace, Roy's numbers this year are comparable, and he's reached that level in less time then Hardaway did.

I think in that short window of time when Penny was healthy he was probably a better player then Roy is now during his 92 game career. But the gap between them is a lot smaller then some of the posters in this thread have implied. And the gap will continue to close this season. And next season, when and if Oden becomes a force in the paint, giving Roy a similar advantage to what Penny had with Shaq, there could still be a gap, but it may very well be in Roy's favor.

I think he was talking about swingmen. Penny's skillset surpasses that of Roy's without even a blink.

And I don't get all this talk about how Penny couldn't lead his team w/o Shaq non-sense. He led the Shaq-less Magic to 45 win season and averaged 30 points in the playoffs. O yea, Penny basically played with just Nick Anderson while Roy is playing with Aldridge, Webster, Outlaw, etc. That Blazers team is extremely talented with or without Oden anchoring the paint. Give me Penny.

[yo_penny1]

Wizenheimer

Do you agree that during the 90's players were allowed to play tougher stronger defense when guarding players? and that nowadays players points per game averages are inflated slightly compared to back in the mid 90's?

no, I don't really agree. Teams weren't allowed to play zone defenses back then like they can now for one thing.

In any event, Orlando in Penny's "prime" scored about 10 points a game more then portland now. Kind of a league wide event by the way. So for this specific comparison's sake, relative league defenses aren't really relevant.

I agree that Penny was more athletic but I also believe he has the higher IQ compared to Roy. We never got to see a Prime Penny hardaway which is sad but the closest "prime" season would have been 1995. People would say that Penny was arguably the second best player behind Jordan back in the mid 90's would you put Roy in that same level?

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton
Chris Webber

Those are some of the players that were still playing and playing very well in 1995.

Whoever the "people" are who are saying Penny was better then all those players are simply delusional. For chrissakes, Penny wasn't even the best player on his team. The assertion he was the 2nd best behind jordan is just not credible, especially when you look at that list.

In Penny's best year he averaged 21.7 points and 7 assists. Those are not HOF numbers. When adjusted for pace, Roy's numbers this year are comparable, and he's reached that level in less time then Hardaway did.

I think in that short window of time when Penny was healthy he was probably a better player then Roy is now during his 92 game career. But the gap between them is a lot smaller then some of the posters in this thread have implied. And the gap will continue to close this season. And next season, when and if Oden becomes a force in the paint, giving Roy a similar advantage to what Penny had with Shaq, there could still be a gap, but it may very well be in Roy's favor.

We will just have to take the facts (of the MVP voting) that Penny Hardaway was voted the 3rd Most valuable player in 1995.

[Wizenheimer]

-= original quote snipped =-



You don't get it. Penny wasn't playing at his best yet, he was still getting better, but then he got injured. And he STILL was better than Roy in most aspects.

so in other words, penny never reached his "prime", which was the assumption posted in this thread that I objected to.

If people are looking at Penny and projecting him healthy at 29 and averaging 30 points and 11 assists a game...his prime, then they can have their fantasy land and I won't interfere, even though that was never the real Penny on the planet earth.

You say he wasn't "playing at his best yet"...well, that's patently false. His 'best' WAS his 2nd and 3rd seasons and that's a fact...he never got better. For the lack of anything else, that was his prime. Then of course he became the Sam Bowie of the backcourt.

[Wizenheimer]

-= original quote snipped =-



We will just have to take the facts (of the MVP voting) that Penny Hardaway was voted the 3rd Most valuable player in 1995.

yes...a flash in the pan can occasionally garner support in some of the NBA's popularity contests. (And no, I don't think he was just a flash in the pan. But as long as people are exaggerating in his favor, I'll counter-balance the exaggeration)

But you said that Penny was the 2nd best player in the mid-90's. That's basically a number of years, not the single year of 1995. And it's a wonder how the 2nd best player for a number of years finished no higher then 3rd in MVP voting in any single year.

I will say again that I don't believe penny was better then any of those players on that list I made, and that list didn't even include John Stockton or Alonzo Mourning.

In 1995...Penny's best year apparently by your estimation...He finished 18th in scoring, 15th in assists, and 16th in steals. And he wasn't in the top 100 in rebounds. He did have a lot of Sportscenter Highlights though, maybe that explains the high regard he has in this thread.

But setting all that aside, the primary reason I'm being argumentative is because I think the comparison in the OP is simply an invalid one. And your posts tend to prove it. You want to take a player who has had a 14 year career, isolate his best year, and then compare it to a player who has played a grand total of 92 NBA games. It's absurd. We don't know how good Brandon Roy is going to be in HIS prime, but right now it looks like it might be pretty good.

I could ask who was better: Roy now or penny in the 02/03 season when he averaged 10pts, 4ast, and 4reb over 58 games and it would not be a bit more absurd then the original comparison. And the truth is, that 02/03 season is as indicative of penny's career as is the 1995 season.

[Wizenheimer]

-= original quote snipped =-



I think he was talking about swingmen. Penny's skillset surpasses that of Roy's without even a blink.

And I don't get all this talk about how Penny couldn't lead his team w/o Shaq non-sense. He led the Shaq-less Magic to 45 win season and averaged 30 points in the playoffs. O yea, Penny basically played with just Nick Anderson while Roy is playing with Aldridge, Webster, Outlaw, etc. That Blazers team is extremely talented with or without Oden anchoring the paint. Give me Penny.

That statement I highligthed is really quite comical in retrospect.

Prior to this season, it was almost universally believed at RealGM that the Blazers were going to suck this year. I saw dozens of predictions here that portland would end winning 18-27 games this year and end up high in the lottery again. This was a sentiment shared by the predominantely east coast sportwriters by the way. Just look at the preseason predicitons of Hollinger and Simmons for instance.

And for damn sure "extremely talented" weren't adjectives used to describe the Blazers. Roy was said repeatedly to be unathletic with a low ceiling. Aldridge was said to be over-rated and terribly soft. Webster was said to be a bust. Outlaw was said to have a extremely low basketball IQ. And Jones was said to be a throwaway scrub that Phoenix was glad to be rid of.

And Portland started the season looking like they would meet those low expectations by starting out at 5-12. Then a funny thing happened. Brandon Roy went to the coach and said that he needed to run the offense more. The coach agreed, Roy asserted himself on the floor, took over running the team, and the Blazers have gone a tear.

And miraculously the Blazers have gone from a bunch of lottery-bound losers to "extremely talented".

Maybe just the way that the vast majority of RealGM posters underestimated the Blazers, they are doing the same by underestimating Roy in this thread.

[gavran]

You still falied prove why Roy is better or close to what Penny was in 96.....
And the question is Roy NOW and Penny in 94-97, and yet you're bringing up Penny's stats in 2003 and talking about Roy in the future.....IRRELEVANT. We're comparing one player early in his carrier to another player early in his carrier....

[Fenix]

Wait, we're talking about Penny's best season against this year's Roy, right? Penny wins that one easily. He was taller, more athletic, better playmaker and - like a lot of you already said - a far superior post player. He'd be a rich man's Dwyane Wade if that version of him played today. I can't think of one single reason why I'd take Roy over Penny in his best season.