RealGM

The subject of Artis Gilmore's ridiculous exclusion from the HOF has come up on these boards again. Thought it would be interesting to compare him to Patrick Ewing, who most people think is a lock for the Hall.

Career Stats:

Artis Gilmore 19 years, 5 in the ABA, 5 All def teams, 1MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 1 ABA Championship...note that he was a more efficient scorer in the NBA
12.3 reb 2.3 ast/3.1to 2.4blk/3.4fouls 18.8pts@.582fg% (.623 tsp)

Patrick Ewing 17 years, 3 All defense teams, no MVPs, no championships
9.8 reb 1.9ast/3.0to 2.4blk/3.4fouls 21.0pts@.504Fg% (.553 tsp)

Gilmore was the bigger, stronger player. Ewing the quicker player with an outside/midrange game that Gilmore never developed. Gilmore is even or has a statistical edge in pretty much every major category except volume scoring where his efficiency edge outweighs Ewings slightly greater scoring (Ewing was also a slightly better FT shooter though Gilmore was solid; both drew fouls at similar rates). Gilmore also has significant extras (MVP, championship though Ewing played in a far more competitive period for great centers.

I'm not saying that Gilmore was clearly better than Ewing; I am saying it is close and even ignoring Gilmore's ABA days, very comparable. Yet the NBA ignores Gilmore and Ewing will probably get into the HOF within his first couple of years of eligibility. There is someone on the committee blackballing him (and other more marginal ABA greats like Mel Daniels and George McGinnis) for having played in a rival league.

GET OVER IT!

Good post. One of the things about Gilmore is that he hurt his knee in his fourth season in the NBA, and he was a different player after that. Gilmore had a great first step before that, and was good at kicking the ball out when defenders would collapse on him. After the knee injury, he was much more a strict low post player. He become more efficient, but his assist numbers dropped too.

Still, I'm inclined to think that Artis's NBA career is more or less equal to Ewing's. You might want to give Ewing a slight nod because he had more seasons at/near his peak. But that's only because you're not including Artis's ABA years...and in those years (and in a couple of first NBA years), I think Artis was better than Ewing ever was.

I also think that the C position was (much) more competitive in Artis's first 5-6 NBA seasons compared to Ewing's competition. The top Cs are more or less comparable. The close to midpoint C in the late 70s was a guy like Swen Nater or Billy Paultz (in one of their good years). The dropoff was steeper in the 1990s. Comparing the two best years for Ewing (1991) and Gilmore (1978), you can see this when you match the Cs they went against one to one.

1978 C--1991 C
1. Kareem--DRob
A terrific, close comparison.
2. Walton--Hakeem
Walton played 58 games this year. He won the MVP. Hakeem played even fewer games. Walton had a greater impact.
3. McAdoo--Daugherty
McAdoo got a ton of grief from the New York media, who were pretty much on the warpath. But you've got to give credit to the 26.5 ppg and 12.5 rpg. Daugherty had a fine year at 21.6 ppg and 10.9 rpg, but Doo is still ahead. But, you say, Daugherty is a great passer and played on better teams. Which is often true. Except McAdoo had more assists this season. And his team won almost 10 more games.
4. Lanier--Seikaly
This one is easy. Lanier was still in his peak period; 24.5 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 3.4 apg, with great range shooting .527. Seikaly had a good year with 16.4 ppg and 11.1 rpg, but he was no Bob Lanier.
5. Cowens--Parish
Both had slipped, but Parish had slipped far more. Cowens was still near his peak at nearly 19 ppg and 14 rpg. Parish was on the slide, but still put up 14.9 and 10.6.
6. Issel--Moses
Issel is near his peak. Moses averaged 10.6 and 8.1. Issel, though undersized, was a terrific player...the Nugs went to the WCF finals in 1978, and Issel was a 21.6-10.3-3.8 player.
7. Adams--Laimbeer
Adams was a great passer and very good scorer that, like Issel, was undersized. Still, he averaged 15.5 points, 8.1 rebounds, and 3.2 assist in 27.3 mpg on a 49 win team. Laimbeer is well down the slide, averaging 11.0 ppg and 9.0 rpg.
8. Unseld--Eaton
Very different players. Eaton was a defensive monolith...but he didn't run the court well, wasn't much of a rebounder, and didn't shoot or score at all. He was on the slide too...5.0 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 2.4 bpg. Unseld wasn't much of a scorer either by this point..only 7.6 ppg. But Unseld got over 11 boards a game, and averaged over 4 assists a game. And--oh yeah--the Bullets won the title.
9. Nater--Vlade
Again, different player types. Similar in size...Nater was a slightly bulkier guy--but Nater had a vertical of about a quarter of an inch because he had bad knees. But he was a good shooter and elite rebounder and good scorer too. Vlade was just a kid this season...he averaged 11.2 ppg and 8.2 boards. Nater was a 15.5-13.2 player.
10. Paultz--Duckworth
Duckworth had all the promise two years earlier, but was already fat and practically running away from rebounds in 1991. He did score 15.5 a game, though. Still 6.6 rebounds and 34 total blocks for a 26 year old 7 foot C stinks. The Whopper scored just as much (15., grabbed about two more boards a game, had twice as many assists a game, and blocked almost six times as many shots.

After this, the NBA players really drop off...Olden Polynice and an aging James Donaldson probably head the list. Maybe Beonoit Benjamin. In 1978, we haven't gotten to the young Robert Parish (12.5-8.3 in 24 mpg) or Jack Sikma (10.7-8.3 in 27 mpg). Sam Lacey was still getting close to 9 points and 9 boards and 4 assists a game in under 30 mpg. Jim Chones (15.0-10.3) and James Edwards (15.2-7.4) had good years. Hell, Steve Hawes was close to a double-double guy; so was Rich Kelley. This was all in a 22 team league; almost 20% smaller than the league in 1991; over 25% smaller than the league today.

It's true that Cs like Shaq and Zo went into the elite group along with Drob and Hakeem in the mid 90s. But the top 5 Cs in 4 year intervals from 1969 to 1981 look something like this

1969--Wilt, Reed, Russell, Thurmond, Hayes
1973--Kareem, McAdoo, Cowens, Lanier, Thurmond
1977--Walton, Kareem, Lanier, Gilmore, Cowens
1981--Moses, Kareem, Parish, Gilmore, Sikma

and that's in a smaller league with better lower tier players at the position. So I think Artis was not only better than Ewing, he was better/at his best against better competition.

Hadn't done the analysis of competing centers, thanks