RealGM

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:30 am**

Who was better athlete and why?
I think Howard's stronger and jumps more, but I've always been impressed by how Hakeem was light on his feet.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:45 am**

Olajuwon; he was exceedingly strong, something commented upon by both Shaq and Moses Malone and insanely coordinated and fast for a guy of his size (6'10, 260-ish). He had footspeed that Dwight can only dream of (pardon the pun and noting that Dwight's hardly lead-footed) and he had cat-like balance and agility. This is a guy who moved like a guard despite being built like a center.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:24 pm**

hakeem

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:25 pm**

hakeem he was able to jump up as high on his 2nd jump as his first.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:01 pm**

I think you need to wait for Dwight to enter his prime. He just turned 22 a couple months ago.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:48 pm**

MagicalMan wrote:I think you need to wait for Dwight to enter his prime. He just turned 22 a couple months ago.

Athletic prime. Not a lot of players get even more athletic as they age.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:55 pm**

There are different types of athletes, and both Howard and Hakeem were amazing linear athletes...ie, run, jump, strength, etc. I don't know which I would choose...Hakeem is underrated in this area because he generally only did what he had to do, keeping himself under control, but a quick Youtube search of his earlier years will astonish you.

But when you consider integrated athleticism, by that I mean the ability to string different motor skills together in a fluid action, balance, hand and foot speed, eye-hand coordination, Hakeem is on a different level, certainly from Howard, possibly from anyone who has ever played.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:49 pm**

tsherkin wrote:Olajuwon; he was exceedingly strong, something commented upon by both Shaq and Moses Malone and insanely coordinated and fast for a guy of his size (6'10, 260-ish). He had footspeed that Dwight can only dream of (pardon the pun and noting that Dwight's hardly lead-footed) and he had cat-like balance and agility. This is a guy who moved like a guard despite being built like a center.

Kobe called Dwight Howard the strongest player he's every played with/against.

There is no question in my mind that Dwight Howard is the most athletic big man to ever step on an NBA court.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:00 pm**

Patterns wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Kobe called Dwight Howard the strongest player he's every played with/against.

Link?

There is no question in my mind that Dwight Howard is the most athletic big man to ever step on an NBA court.

There you are, Patterns! So not only the 60s, not only the 80s, but even the distant prehistory of the 90s isn't enough to satisfy you and basically everything worth noticing - including athleticism - happened in the current decade? :crazy:

We don't even have to resort to Wilt about Dwight's "record" athleticism: not that I expect you to remember that, but pretty much everyone old enough may confirm that young Shaq or Hakeem were more athletic than Howard. If we talk about not strength (which is vastly dependent on body mass), but pure hops, then record of the current era belongs to prime Shawn Kemp - he truly moved like a guard and was able to duplicate even in more impressive way each single dunk Dwight was ever capable of.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:05 pm**

Patterns wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Kobe called Dwight Howard the strongest player he's every played with/against.

The strongest guys of 2 eras...Moses Malone earlier, and Shaq later...called Hakeem the strongest player they had ever faced.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm**

Harry Palmer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

The strongest guys of 2 eras...Moses Malone earlier, and Shaq later...called Hakeem the strongest player they had ever faced.

To be fair, I'd rather have both of them than Hakeem in the strength department. Nothing against the Dream: these both were just thicker in proportion to height than him and at least as muscular (plus obviously Shaq was heavier). Furthermore, their style of play confirms impressive strength: they were knocking people left and right, while Hakeem was more of finesse player.

Trivia: I remember seeing 2 guys, from which even Shaq was bouncing off like a pingpong ball during the game. Somebody wanna guess who they were? ;-)

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:25 pm**

Myth_Breaker wrote: Furthermore, their style of play confirms impressive strength: they were knocking people left and right, while Hakeem was more of finesse player.

That's a misconception. Well, sort of.

When Hakeem first came into the league, he was almost purely a power/speed/athleticism guy. Here, look at him early.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBrEsNS9zKg

It wasn't till later that, for the combined reasons that he had the freakish athleticism to allow for it and the horrid teammate support to demand it, he developed the arsenal of moves we now associate with him. But even those rely on his incredible core strength...if he didn't have the power, they wouldn't need to account for it and would play him as a finesse guy, making it less effective.

Seriously, he was never the big bulky guy like Moses or Shaq, but his power was extraordinary, in terms of real, functional strength.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:38 pm**

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

There you are, Patterns! So not only the 60s, not only the 80s, but even the distant prehistory of the 90s isn't enough to satisfy you and basically everything worth noticing - including athleticism - happened in the current decade? We don't even have to resort to Wilt about Dwight's "record" athleticism: not that I expect you to remember that, but pretty much everyone old enough may confirm that young Shaq or Hakeem were more athletic than Howard. If we talk about not strength (which is vastly dependent on body mass), but pure hops, then record of the current era belongs to prime Shawn Kemp - he truly moved like a guard and was able to duplicate even in more impressive way each single dunk Dwight was ever capable of.

Kobe did an interview of Dwight and Dwight did an interview of Kobe during the beginning or half time of the LA/ORL game in ORL. There is no link but if you know where to look, you can find the game in archive and look. I am not lying. Ask Magic fans.

First of all, Shawn Kemp wasn't nearly as dominant as Dwight. He doesn't weigh as much, isn't as strong, and doesn't jump as high. I was old enough to see Kemp play if you're wondering. Dwight dunks the ball even easier than pre-injury Amare and Dwight is much bigger than Amare. If Dwight is within several feet of the basket, he's dunking that sh*t.

Shaq, while very athletic for his size is still not the athlete of Dwight. Shaq's post game is terribly underrated. He has a far better post game than Dwight which is a delusion to his athletic ability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1fNRbNwvD0

Watch #1. Dunks are a good indication of how athletic an NBA player is. Hakeem would only dream of being able to jump like that even though he weighs much less than Dwight.

And I hate how everyone from the past is automatically better than players in the present. People say that basketball in 50's, 60's, 70's is tougher than today's and today's basketball is the softest doesn't know what they are talking about. Old fans think that everything in the past is better just like how your grandfather think everything in the past is better.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:42 pm**

[quote="Harry Palmer"][/quote]

Sorry, but I think rather your notion about Hakeem's Shaq-like strength is misconception. Speed, athleticism, dynamics - yes. Pure strength - what I was talking about - not to the extent of Moses, lest Shaq. I mean: you saw much more often Olajuwon leaving his defender in the dust than overpowering him - may this defender be Kareem or Admiral - right?

Ultimate proof: if Hakeem really was as strong as you claim, he wouldn't be so dominated by prime Mark Eaton. Vs. him: 6-17, 4-11, 5-14, even freakin 2-15 from the field?! Come on...
To the lesser extent it repeated with another - though inferior - physical Jazz center in Ostertag during 1996/97 season, when Jazz eliminated Rockets and Ostertag earned his huge contract. I don't have to add that Ostertag was Shaq's b***, right?

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:54 pm**

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Sorry, but I think rather your notion about Hakeem's Shaq-like strength is misconception.

I didn't say his strength was Shaq-like. I said it was much, much greater than many people realize, and an extreme part of his game. If that's a misconception, as noted, it's not just mine, but mine, Shaq's and Moses'.

Speed, athleticism, dynamics - yes. Pure strength - what I was talking about - not to the extent of Moses, lest Shaq.

I would say it was close to Moses, seriously. Moses played him when Hakeem was 18, and said he already couldn't move the guy...he was amazed, said it was the first time he'd ever come up against someone who just wouldn't move when he wanted him to.

The point Shaq and Moses were making was, I think, that Hakeem's strength wasn't as overtly displayed. It was the kind you get from people who do physical work all the time; less mass-based, more just inert power.

I mean: you saw much more often Olajuwon leaving his defender in the dust than overpowering him - may this defender be Kareem or Admiral - right?

Later, yes. As mentioned, earlier, more power. Going over and through people, as opposed to around them. Phi Slamma Jamma.

Ultimate proof: if Hakeem really was as strong as you claim, he wouldn't be so dominated by prime Mark Eaton. Vs. him: 6-17, 4-11, 5-14, even freakin 2-15 from the field?! Come on...

How is this ultimate proof of anything? Match-up issues happen for all kinds of reasons, and one of the reasons Hakeem struggled against Eaton was that they used Eaton as a seal and rotated their help defenders off the bounce. This wasn't new to Hakeem, who probably faced more true doubles and triples than any player I've ever seen, but Eaton played the seal extremely effectively.

But even if my perspective is flawed, I don't see how you can assume the reason for the match-up issue was Hakeem not being strong...at all. I'm tempted to find a player Shaq struggled against, and suggest that that means he wasn't powerful, or something. It's not that simple.

To the lesser extent it repeated with another - though inferior - physical Jazz center in Ostertag during 1996/97 season, when Jazz eliminated Rockets and Ostertag earned his huge contract. I don't have to add that Ostertag was Shaq's b***, right?

Again, same response. I can point out people Hakeem dominated and Shaq didn't...what would that prove?

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:15 pm**

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
I don't have to add that Ostertag was Shaq's b***, right?

well, not that much actually, if you ask me...

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:34 pm**

Harry Palmer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Myth_Breaker wrote:
-= original quote snipped =-

Sorry, but I think rather your notion about Hakeem's Shaq-like strength is misconception.

I didn't say his strength was Shaq-like. I said it was much, much greater than many people realize, and an extreme part of his game. If that's a misconception, as noted, it's not just mine, but mine, Shaq's and Moses'.

That's what I said first: "To be fair, I'd rather have both of them than Hakeem in the strength department." - and than continued on how Hakeem was more of a finesse player and weaker COMPARED to Shaq or Moses. So is there any misconception from your part on what I've meant, or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing?
And I hope I don't have to add I don't underestimate Hakeem's athleticism at all, including strength. Hey, in the earlier post here I rated him above Dwight in that department.

Quote:
Speed, athleticism, dynamics - yes. Pure strength - what I was talking about - not to the extent of Moses, lest Shaq.

I would say it was close to Moses, seriously. Moses played him when Hakeem was 18, and said he already couldn't move the guy...he was amazed, said it was the first time he'd ever come up against someone who just wouldn't move when he wanted him to.

The point Shaq and Moses were making was, I think, that Hakeem's strength wasn't as overtly displayed. It was the kind you get from people who do physical work all the time; less mass-based, more just inert power.

Still, not to the extent of Moses/Shaq... Hey, I remember even Anthony Mason during 1994 Finals matching Hakeem as to physicality under the basket quite well.

Quote:
I mean: you saw much more often Olajuwon leaving his defender in the dust than overpowering him - may this defender be Kareem or Admiral - right?

Later, yes. As mentioned, earlier, more power. Going over and through people, as opposed to around them. Phi Slamma Jamma.

See above.

Quote:
Ultimate proof: if Hakeem really was as strong as you claim, he wouldn't be so dominated by prime Mark Eaton. Vs. him: 6-17, 4-11, 5-14, even freakin 2-15 from the field?! Come on...

How is this ultimate proof of anything? Match-up issues happen for all kinds of reasons, and one of the reasons Hakeem struggled against Eaton was that they used Eaton as a seal and rotated their help defenders off the bounce. This wasn't new to Hakeem, who probably faced more true doubles and triples than any player I've ever seen, but Eaton played the seal extremely effectively.

If you are saying so... and what's exactly the excuse in case of duels vs. Ostertag?

But even if my perspective is flawed, I don't see how you can assume the reason for the match-up issue was Hakeem not being strong...at all. I'm tempted to find a player Shaq struggled against, and suggest that that means he wasn't powerful, or something. It's not that simple.

Shaq never regularly struggled against anybody, so I agree it's not so simple. Besides, you can struggle against someone from a variety of reasons, but when you struggle vs. someone like Eaton, whose about the only assets are strength and size, then it is painfully clear why you struggle.

Quote:
To the lesser extent it repeated with another - though inferior - physical Jazz center in Ostertag during 1996/97 season, when Jazz eliminated Rockets and Ostertag earned his huge contract. I don't have to add that Ostertag was Shaq's b***, right?

Again, same response. I can point out people Hakeem dominated and Shaq didn't...what would that prove?

If you listed people known only from their physicality... yes, it would be quite a argument.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:43 pm**

Hakeem is more athletic, but that doesn't take anything away from Dwight, since both are probably top 5 in terms of most athletic big men in NBA history.

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:40 pm**

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

well, not that much actually, if you ask me...

You happen to be Utah's fan, right? ;-)

Well:

Shaq vs. Ostertag:
25,7 ppg on .538 shooting/11,9 rpg/2,1 apg/0,8 spg/2,8 bpg.

Shaq in his career:
25,6 ppg on .524 shooting/11,6 rpg/2,7 apg/0,6 spg/2,4 bpg.

(Granted, you may say these career numbers are a bit distorted due to taking into account recent years when Shaq's aging - but on the other hand, it's more than offset by the fact that in earlier years O'Neal while playing vs. Jazz had to pay attention also to the "little" problem named Karl Malone).

Ostertag vs. Shaq:
4,2 ppg on .426 shooting/5,7 rpg/0,5 apg/0,2 spg/1,8 bpg.

If it's not absolute owning, please tell me what is. :-)

Posted: **Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:40 pm**

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Sorry, but I think rather your notion about Hakeem's Shaq-like strength is misconception. Speed, athleticism, dynamics - yes. Pure strength - what I was talking about - not to the extent of Moses, lest Shaq. I mean: you saw much more often Olajuwon leaving his defender in the dust than overpowering him - may this defender be Kareem or Admiral - right?

Ultimate proof: if Hakeem really was as strong as you claim, he wouldn't be so dominated by prime Mark Eaton. Vs. him: 6-17, 4-11, 5-14, even freakin 2-15 from the field?! Come on...
To the lesser extent it repeated with another - though inferior - physical Jazz center in Ostertag during 1996/97 season, when Jazz eliminated Rockets and Ostertag earned his huge contract. I don't have to add that Ostertag was Shaq's b***, right?

Ahhhh I love the standar RealGM argument. Hop on over to basketballreference.com and start posting stats.

A good defender is a good defender. Deke has held Shaq to some pretty piss poor games over the years as have Yao Ming, Alonzo Mourning, and David Robinson. And don't try to pawn it off on them being better players because Eaton was a fabulous defensive player on teams that played great overall defense. I'm guessing you don't know this, but he did win a couple DPotY's back in the 80's.

As for Ostertag, what did he get one year of Hakeem before he started into his twilight years. Nice argument Dubya, has Greg never heald Shaq to >.500 shooting????

Finally, I might be mistaken, but I don't think Harry ever said Hakeem was as strong as Shaq. He only said Shaq and Moses Malone said Hakeem was the strongest guy they ever played against which is true.

RealGM

Dwight Howard vs Hakeem Olajuwon (athletic prime)

Dwight Howard vs Hakeem Olajuwon (athletic prime)