2nd Greatest SF of All-time: Havlicek, Dr J or Elgin Baylor

JordansBulls · Post #1 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:41 pm

Since ESPN hasn't come out with the Top SF's of all time, who would you say is the 2nd greatest SF of all-time as we know Bird will be the obvious #1?

Is the 2nd Greatest SF of All-time: John Havlicek, Dr J or Elgin Baylor?

That Nicka · Post #2 » by **That Nicka** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:37 pm

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. Elgin Baylor
4. John Havlicek
5. Rick Barry
6. Scottie Pippen
7. LeBron James
8. Dominique Wilkins
9. James Worthy

rpa · Post #3 » by **rpa** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:44 pm

Since Oscar Robertson wasn't on their SG list I'd have to assume he's on their SF list. And if that's the case, he's either #1 or #2 (yes, possibly better than Bird)

That Nicka · Post #4 » by **That Nicka** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:50 pm

rpa wrote:Since Oscar Robertson wasn't on their SG list I'd have to assume he's on their SF list. And if that's the case, he's either #1 or #2 (yes, possibly better than Bird)

He's #2 on their PG list

rpa · Post #5 » by **rpa** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:51 pm

That Nicka wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

He's #2 on their PG list

Ahh, missed it and figured ESPN wasn't THAT stupid. Guess I was wrong.

Warspite · Post #6 » by **Warspite** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:59 pm

rpa wrote:Since Oscar Robertson wasn't on their SG list I'd have to assume he's on their SF list. And if that's the case, he's either #1 or #2 (yes, possibly better than Bird)

Oscar was a PG...

IMHO DrJ was head and shoulders above Hondo and Baylor. In a recent interview with NBA TV he was asked about coming to the 76ers from the ABA. He said that the defenses were actualy better in the ABA and that it was easier to play in the NBA. He however was taken into Coach Cunninghams office and told "We dont have any 30ppg players here. We have 3 20ppg players." So he sacrificed for the team but he said he would have np and it might have been a little easier to duplicate his ABA stat line in the NBA.

Who was the ABA DrJ?? Karl Malone with MJs ability. He guarded a 5 Kentucky Colonels and led his team in ppg, rebs, asts, blocks, steals. If you ever get a chance to watch ABA DrJ please do because it may change your entire ranking of GOAT players.

rpa · Post #7 » by **rpa** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:05 pm

Warspite wrote: Oscar was a PG...

I'd say he was as much a PG as Pippen was a PG (or Lebron, to give a current example). To me Robertson was more of a wing player with a handle/passing ability as good as most PGs.

sp6r=underrated · Post #8 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:14 pm

Julius is the second best small forward based on the opinions of basketball historians, statistics, and awards.

There is strong debate though about who is third all-time between Hondo, Baylor, and Barry. The argument for Hondo is based on his defense and team success. Barry can claim to have single handly led a team to a title, and also used to beat Hondo regularly for 1st team All-NBA. Baylor was the most explosive scorer in the bunch, while playing in a league not suited to his game.

hermes · Post #9 » by **hermes** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:18 pm

dr. J

conleyorbust · Post #10 » by **conleyorbust** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:50 pm

Bird first with the Doc a VERY close second. Who knows what would have happened had circumstanced been different for Erving in his prime.

I think Baylor goes below the other two... I'm underating him here but I think of him as closer to a Nique' type of guy. Could really fill it up but wasn't that efficient... and great rebounder.

Between Barry and Hondo, I gotta go with Barry. He's another guy that gets underappreciated because he played in the ABA for a big chunk of his prime. He was like Bird and The Doc in that he was a wing player who could score efficiently enough at high volumes and pass well enough that he could take a team to a championship... he never really had the talent around him that Bird did which is why people talk about how he dragged that team through the finals and then beat a 60 win team featuring two frontcourt hall of famers in or near their prime.

Hondo was great too but he couldn't dominate on offense the same way Barry could. He was Pippen before there was Pippen.

Post #11 » by **5DOM** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:02 pm

going to be LeBron

mudyez · Post #12 » by **mudyez** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:35 pm

I'm undecided between lebron and dr.j, but in the end I think lebron has a chance to become the best at his position

JordansBulls · Post #13 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:21 pm

mudyez wrote:I'm undecided between lebron and dr.j, but in the end I think lebron has a chance to become the best at his position

You think Lebron is the 2nd best SF all time right now?

:eek1:

ThaRegul8r · Post #14 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:13 am

JordansBulls wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

You think Lebron is the 2nd best SF all time right now?

Does this really suprise you? *raises eyebrow* I mean, with the other thread about Chris Paul and Deron Williams going to be top five point guards of all time? Whenever the next new thing comes along, people are quick to start talking about "all time" before they've even done anything instead of letting their careers unfold and then we can see what they'll do.

writerman · Post #15 » by **writerman** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:08 am

conleyorbust wrote:Bird first with the Doc a VERY close second. Who knows what would have happened had circumstanced been different for Erving in his prime.

I think Baylor goes below the other two... I'm underating him here but I think of him as closer to a Nique' type of guy. Could really fill it up but wasn't that efficient... and great rebounder.

Between Barry and Hondo, I gotta go with Barry. He's another guy that gets underappreciated because he played in the ABA for a big chunk of his prime. He was like Bird and The Doc in that he was a wing player who could score efficiently enough at high volumes and pass well enough that he could take a team to a championship... he never really had the talent around him that Bird did which is why people talk about how he dragged that team through the finals and then beat a 60 win team featuring two frontcourt hall of famers in or near their prime.

Hondo was great too but he couldn't dominate on offense the same way Barry could. He was Pippen before there was Pippen.

Comparing Hondo to Pippen is, IMO, a gross insult to Havlicek. Havlicek was a leader, something Pippen never was. Hondo had to carry a team on his back, something Pippen couldn't do. I'll admit I have a prejudice in favor of great defenders, and I don't apologize for that. IMO Hondo was far and away the finest defender to ever play the SF position. If I had to pick one player to defend Jordan or anyone else you would care to name in his size range in a deciding 7th game, I'd pick Havlicek in a nanosecond without batting an eye; and I'd sleep like baby having made that decision, because I know if Hondo couldn't do the job, it couldn't be done by anyone else.

Also, his offense is being seriously underrated here. Hondo was as explosive offensively as anyone you care to name.

Pippen was a fine player--but overrated here. A talented career second banana incapable of ever being a true top banana.

Post #16 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:07 am

Julius.

Anyone uncertain about this should look at the Nets and Nuggets in their last year in the ABA and first year in the NBA.

Summary:

'75-76: The Nets are the best team in the ABA, Nuggets are 2nd.
'76-77: The Nuggets have the second best record in the NBA, Nets are an order of magnitude worse than any team in the league.

What happened? Denver kept their team together (and showed that they were elite in any league). The Nets lost their best scorer, rebounder, assister, shotblocker, and thief. How did the Nets lose all those guys? They only lost one, Erving. He was the Nets possibly more than anyone has been their team in history. There's nobody who led their team in every major category and achieved anything like the success Erving did.

TheSheriff · Post #17 » by **TheSheriff** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:21 pm

It is Dr. J. Hondo is number 3. Baylor, nevertheless, was the greatest player ever to have no left hand.

TheSheriff · Post #18 » by **TheSheriff** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:28 pm

mudyez wrote:I'm undecided between lebron and dr.j, but in the end I think lebron has a chance to become the best at his position

The just like Joe Barry Carol was the best Power-forward ever in 1983, right? And Walton was better was already better than Russell in 1977, correct? :nonono:

wigglestrue · Post #19 » by **wigglestrue** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:07 pm

I would say...Dr. J, Elgin, Hondo.
It's very, very close between the three, though.
They're all in the top 10-15 all time range.

Post #20 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:35 am

I'm pretty comfortable with Dr. J at #2.

He's a guy who I usually ranked in the top-10 before I started watching a lot of Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq (so early in my basketball life) and he's still top-15 without a doubt.

He was older, injured and sacrificing for his team in the NBA, all of that's true and served to suppress his unearthly scoring ability and he did come up big when it counted.

Havlicek was a fantastic player and a great choice at #3.

Baylor is a tougher call but I have him 4th. He's a guy who's oft-overlooked because few people who discuss him now actually SAW him but he was there at the beginning of the game's shift towards above-the-rim acrobatics, back when people would put your teeth into the floor for trying that sort of stuff. He was a great rebounder, a stunning athlete, an underrated passer (and especially so given how many years he played alongside West)...

He's a guy who wasn't a stunningly efficient guy ITO FG% but people forget that he attacked aggressively, drew lots of fouls, was a 78% FT shooter on his career, he's one of those guys whose FG% ROSE in the playoffs...

He had some pretty nasty handles, too, which a lot of people forget, and a nasty mid-range shooter.

I'd put money that modern medicine would have limited the impact of the knee injuries that eventually ended his career, too, and you'd have seen him be a dangerous scorer for much longer.

I'd say Hondo and Baylor are closer than either of those two and Dr. J, though; Erving was just straight-up nasty, even if he wasn't a huge volume scorer in the NBA.