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Andrea Bargnani and Martell Webster, a tale pf two players. Seemingly they would have very little in common; one is a European who played professional for a while before being drafted first overall at the age of 21, and the other was drafted straight out of high school, 6th overall. One plays in the West, one in the East. One is a 7-0 center, one is a 6-7 swing. One is black, one is white.

Nothing in common, right?

Wrong.

Bargnani this year: 10.8 pts, 3.9 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 0.5 blocks, 0.3 steals, .394 fg%, .368 3pt% in 25 minutes.

Webster's numbers: 10.2 pts, 4.0 rebounds, 1.2 assists, 0.4 blocks, 0.6 steals on .416 fg%, .367 3pt% in 28 minutes.

This isn't even really an either/or, though you can go that way if you want. It's just that I happened to notice Webster's numbers when I was looking at league shooters, and it jumped out at me how in-line with Bargnani they were. I rarely recall seeing 2 such similar lines. They're also both somewhat young...Webster's just a little over a year younger...and play similar styles, with both taking around 80% jumpers.

You forgot a huge difference between the two--Bargnani has a single RoY vote from last year

mojomarc wrote:You forgot a huge difference between the two--Bargnani has a single RoY vote from last year

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that he would have gotten that vote had he played for the Raptors last year, even if it was his second season.

Adjusted to 40 minutes:

Bargs: 17.3 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 2.0 turnovers, 0.5 steals, 0.7 blocks, 50.5 TS%, 11.24 PER.

Webster: 14.5 points, 5.6 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.5 turnovers, 0.8 steals, 0.5 blocks, 53.7 TS%, 11.88 PER.

So, yeah. Bargs scores more, Webster scores more efficiently. The rest is a wash. I'm just happy to see that Bargs' numbers stacked up favourably against those of at least one player that isn't likely to be out of the league by 2010.

On another feel-good note, Bargs >>>>> Mark Madsen.

Andrea Bargnani is not healthy this is why hes underachieving,
anyway how many centers can shoot the 3?...........


i take andrea bargnani.

Schadenfreude wrote:Adjusted to 40 minutes:

Bargs: 17.3 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 2.0 turnovers, 0.5 steals, 0.7 blocks, 50.5 TS%, 11.24 PER.

Webster: 14.5 points, 5.6 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.5 turnovers, 0.8 steals, 0.5 blocks, 53.7 TS%, 11.88 PER.

So, yeah. Bargs scores more, Webster scores more efficiently. The rest is a wash. I'm just happy to see that Bargs' numbers stacked up favourably against those of at least one player that isn't likely to be out of the league by 2010.

On another feel-good note, Bargs >>>>> Mark Madsen.

The efficiency difference isn't that extreme, and the other just tranlates to taking more fga/40, so imo even over 40 it comes out exceptionally similar.

Harry Palmer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



The efficiency difference isn't that extreme, and the other just tranlates to taking more fga/40, so imo even over 40 it comes out exceptionally similar.

Basically, I posted the per-40 stats simply because I spent two minutes looking them up, and damned if I would let that time go to waste.

Schadenfreude wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Basically, I posted the per-40 stats simply because I spent two minutes looking them up, and damned if I would let that time go to waste.

Gotcha.

I just love the fact that 2 guys of entirely different backgrounds, positions, etc. are basically playing the exact same ball. Obviously both are known primarily as shooters so there's that off the top, but looking at how in-line their other numbers are...it's weird.

I remember the Gay/TT physical similarities, exact same birth date, etc. gave me a somewhat similar turn. I still think some team has to get those two together in a front court and just run, run, run.

Schadenfreude wrote:
On another feel-good note, Bargs >>>>> Mark Madsen.

Not as a rebounder or on defense

Schadenfreude wrote:
On another feel-good note, Bargs >>>>> Mark Madsen.

But can he dance?

they don't really resemble each other at all

Harry Palmer wrote:Andrea Bargnani and Martell Webster, a tale pf two players. Seemingly they would have very little in common; one is a European who played professional for a while before being drafted first overall at the age of 21, and the other was drafted straight out of high school, 6th overall. One plays in the West, one in the East. One is a 7-0 center, one is a 6-7 swing. One is black, one is white.

Nothing in common, right?

Wrong.

Bargnani this year: 10.8 pts, 3.9 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 0.5 blocks, 0.3 steals, .394 fg%, .368 3pt% in 25 minutes.

Webster's numbers: 10.2 pts, 4.0 rebounds, 1.2 assists, 0.4 blocks, 0.6 steals on .416 fg%, .367 3pt% in 28 minutes.

This isn't even really an either/or, though you can go that way if you want. It's just that I happened to notice Webster's numbers when I was looking at league shooters, and it jumped out at me how in-line with Bargnani they were. I rarely recall seeing 2 such similar lines. They're also both somewhat young...Webster's just a little over a year younger...and play similar styles, with both taking around 80% jumpers.

There are some other players with similar numbers....

What about Bostjan Nachbar? 10.1 pts, 3,6 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 0.2 blocks, 0.7 steals on .409 fg%, .363 3pt% in 22 minutes.

or (partially)

Francisco Garcia - 11.5 pts, 3.3 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.6 blocks, 1.0 steals on .450 fg%, .404 3pt% in 26 minutes.

Hakim Warrick - 10.0 pts, 4.4 rebounds, 0.6 assists, 0.4 blocks, 0.4 steals in 21 minutes.

Linas Kleiza - 11.1 pts, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 0.2 blocks, 0.7 steals on .467 fg%, .341 3pt% in 25 minutes.

Those stats really reveal, how bad C (or PF, whatever) at 7-0 Bargnani is. He averages almost the same rebounding and blocking numbers as 6-7 or 6-8 wing players and those SFs (o.k., warrick is more a PF) are average rebounders. Last year, all Raptors fans laughed at me, when I said Bargnani is a wasted nr. 1 pick. Do they still disagree with me? I doubt!!!

a-rod wrote:Andrea Bargnani is not healthy this is why hes underachieving,
anyway how many centers can shoot the 3?...........


i take andrea bargnani.

How many teams want their center primary offense to be shooting 3's? I might just be a hater but if my 7ft center was putting some similar rebounding and shot blocking #'s to SF id be a bit disappointed.

Milkdud wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



How many teams want their center primary offense to be shooting 3's? I might just be a hater but if my 7ft center was putting some similar rebounding and shot blocking #'s to SF id be a bit disappointed.

Jazz fans seem fairly happy with their center.

I find that they are pretty similar for this season, I'm to lazy to pick out the per-40 stats, but I'd hazard a guess that Okur's and Barney's stats should look some what the same.

T-Spot wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Jazz fans seem fairly happy with their center.

I find that they are pretty similar for this season, I'm to lazy to pick out the per-40 stats, but I'd hazard a guess that Okur's and Barney's stats should look some what the same.

Okur's at 17 pts, 8.6 rebounds, 2.4 assists, .84 steals, .48 blocks, and I don't have TS%, etc., but he's shooting .437 from the field, .372 from 3 and takes 73% jumpers.

So as light in the loafers as he is, he's still a lot heavier than Bargs or Webster. When Mehmet Okur, in the (I think?) worst rebounding year of his career, is outboarding you by almost 40%, I'd say its safe to say you have a rebounding issue.

Okur also getting that while playing next to Boozer who gobbles up rebounds (10+ a night).

Milkdud wrote:Okur also getting that while playing next to Boozer who gobbles up rebounds (10+ a night).

Bosh is also a 10ish rebound guy [his stats are messed up this year because he started the season with a bum knee and heel, which makes it hard to snag boards.]

Okur gets much more consistent minutes than Bargnani.

T-Spot wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Bosh is also a 10ish rebound guy [his stats are messed up this year because he started the season with a bum knee and heel, which makes it hard to snag boards.]

Okur gets much more consistent minutes than Bargnani.

His rebounds this year aren't messed up. His rebounds this year are exactly in line with his career rebound numbers. He has cracked the double digit rebounding numbers exactly once, and that was in a year where he missed 23 games.

He has a fairly consistent pattern, wherein he usually starts out rebounding pretty well, is at or around 10 at the AS break, and wears down over the second half to end up around 9.

Okur's minutes should, if anything, work against him. Rebounding more than almost any stat is one which incorporates endurance...ie, to what degree you see an effect of minute disparity, it tends to work such that more minutes reduces, not increases, your ability to sustain your rate.

Like with Bosh for example.

(dovetail!)

Harry Palmer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



His rebounds this year aren't messed up. His rebounds this year are exactly in line with his career rebound numbers. He has cracked the double digit rebounding numbers exactly once, and that was in a year where he missed 23 games.

He has a fairly consistent pattern, wherein he usually starts out rebounding pretty well, is at or around 10 at the AS break, and wears down over the second half to end up around 9.

Okur's minutes should, if anything, work against him. Rebounding more than almost any stat is one which incorporates endurance...ie, to what degree you see an effect of minute disparity, it tends to work such that more minutes reduces, not increases, your ability to sustain your rate.

Like with Bosh for example.

(dovetail!)

Eerrr..In Boozer's first four years he also only cracked 10 boards once also.....Bosh played heavy min's in his first few seasons, so its no wonder he could not get boards, he was too tired....

[Grasp straws].

Meh, Bargnani sucks at rebounding.

Everything else is on Okur level for this season. I'm not to fussy about a rebound or two.

T-Spot wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Jazz fans seem fairly happy with their center.

I find that they are pretty similar for this season, I'm to lazy to pick out the per-40 stats, but I'd hazard a guess that Okur's and Barney's stats should look some what the same.

They're happy with the results on offense, but the Jazz's lack of interior defense and shotblocking is probably their biggest flaw. And Okur is also playing next to the banger/rebounding machine that is Boozer.

I think Bargs will be a productive player in the right situation, but I don't like him playing next to Bosh. He needs to play next to and spread the floor for a low post player who can play defense and rebound. Thats not Bosh.