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All-Dull Team versus All-Zany Team
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:44 pm
by rrravenred
In this match-up between the stolid professionals and the wild-eyed maniacs, who would win?
All-Dull Team]
PG John "Toss to Malone. Two dribbles, score" Stockton
SG Mitch "22ppg and no one cares, 22ppg and no one cares" Ritchmond
SF Chris "Small change from Midrange" Mullin
PF Tim "Wonderful <yawn> fundamentals" Duncan
C Kareem "I'm so glad Magic does the media" Abdul Jabbar
All-Zany Team]
PG Stephon "Best PG in the NBA" Marbury
SG Latrell "Feed my family or I choke you" Sprewell
SF Denis Rodman (he really needs no additional info, reall)
PF Charles "I love New York City; I've got a gun." Barkley
C Bill "Flower Child" Walton
(Criteria used include both on and off-court behaviour... suggestions for adds, moves and changes is welcome)
For mine, the Zany team has a slight edge in Talent, although Timmy would absolutely destroy Charles defensively. Stock would also use those spiked elbows to good effect against Marbury (who, let's remember, was a damn good PG in his prime). However, Rodman and Spree would effectively cover their opposite numbers and as a team the Zanys have more offensive weapons (despite the awesome low-post two-headed prospect of Timmy and Kareem)...
Thoughts?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:47 pm
by SOUL
Dull team would wipe the floor with them.
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:49 pm
by Milkdud
How on earth does a team with Duncan, Stockton and Kareem be considered a lesser talented team? The "Dull" team would destroy the Zany team.
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:05 pm
by rrravenred
Milkdud wrote:How on earth does a team with Duncan, Stockton and Kareem be considered a lesser talented team? The "Dull" team would destroy the Zany team.
Walton>Kareem - definitely not by much, but it's there. Peak, uninjured Walton wiped the floor with the NBA. In both of the games in which this was true.
Barkley >> Timmy- TD is a clear winner, but Barkley in his MVP prime was multifaceted awesome. He would work Timmy hard, and his range would help drag Timmy from his comfort zone, lessening his team impact
Rodman >> Mullin. Chris was good. Extremely good. Rodman STILL has more impact as a defender.
Spreewell > Mitch. I love Mitch and think he's criminally underrated when we talk about great SG of the 90s, but Spree was just plain NASTY in his peak, on both ends of the floor. The Knicks of the late 90s
Marbury < < < Stockton - by
just a bit. But prime Marbury was a 22/9 dynamo. He's not trash in this company, even if he's (to my mind) clearly the least talented player in this comparision.
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:13 pm
by technologic
rrravenred wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Walton>Kareem - definitely not by much, but it's there. Peak, uninjured Walton wiped the floor with the NBA. In both of the games in which this was true.
Barkley >> Timmy- TD is a clear winner, but Barkley in his MVP prime was multifaceted awesome. He would work Timmy hard, and his range would help drag Timmy from his comfort zone, lessening his team impact
Rodman >> Mullin. Chris was good. Extremely good. Rodman STILL has more impact as a defender.
Spreewell > Mitch. I love Mitch and think he's criminally underrated when we talk about great SG of the 90s, but Spree was just plain NASTY in his peak, on both ends of the floor. The Knicks of the late 90s
Marbury < < < Stockton - by
just a bit. But prime Marbury was a 22/9 dynamo. He's not trash in this company, even if he's (to my mind) clearly the least talented player in this comparision.
Peak Walton <<< Peak Kareem (statistically and defensively)
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:30 pm
by gswhoops
Soul wrote:Dull team would wipe the floor with them.
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:35 pm
by penbeast0
Actually, Walton was probably a good step up from Kareem defensively. In his two relatively (65 and 58 games) uninjured seasons, both during Kareem's peak years, Walton was voted over Kareem for 1st team All-D both times and over him for 1st team All- NBA once despite significantly weaker stats.
Despite this the "dull" team wipes the floor with the "zany" team. The dull team has outside shooting to spread the floor with 3 solid outside shooters to, well, Marbury . . . Mullin's man defense can be hidden since Walton won't burn him and he's a nice passing lane pest . . . Dull team has big advantage at PG and PF and advantages everywhere except arguably at SF depending on how you rate Rodman's defense and rebounding (both teams have great rebounding at the C and PF so it's not as crucial) v. Mullin's outside shooting and playmaking.
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:42 pm
by Milkdud
I commented on the matchups a disagree with your statements.
I'm a big Walton fan, I mean I'm a blazer fan so I think ive got a decent handle on Walton's peak. That being said I don't see how you can take a player who was at best a 19ppg 14rpg 5apg player and say he way better then a guy who gave you 34ppg, 16rpg, 4.5apg? He also was able to shoot a better FG% and get to the line almost twice as much.
Now on to Rodman vs Mullin now clearly Dennis was a pretty special player during his time but matching him up on Mullin kills he best ability which would be rebound. Are you telling me that Rodman would be getting all those rebound if he has to chase Mullin around the 3 point line? Heck if you want to make an arguement how Rodman is such a great rebound/defender it would make alot more sense to atleast match him up with Duncan then a great outside shooter.
I had to go back and do some fact checking before I commented on Mitch vs Spree and when I did I was even more shocked that you think Spree is the better guy. At best its a push but you mentioned Spree's days with the knicks as your bench mark which frankly his play was on the decline that during his GS days. Richmond was a more efficient scorer and way better a shooter. Spree was a better defender but not so much as id overlook Richmond scoring more and having higher FG,FT and 3 point percents.
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:50 pm
by rrravenred
technologic wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Peak Walton <<< Peak Kareem (statistically and defensively)
Stats aren't the whole story.
KAJ's Stats for Walton's MVP Year
25.9 / 12.9 / 4.3 / 3.0 (.550) (All D second team)
Walton's MVP Stats
18.9 / 13.2 / 5.0 / 2.5 (.522) (All D first team)
Now you can quite reasonably argue that this was on the downside of KAJ's career (and what a long and gradual descent it was, from such a magnificent peak) since he was 30, but given this discrpancy between their numbers and the fact that KAJ placed fourth that year in the MVP voting (at 62 games, still playing more than Walton) it's reasonable to ask whether Walton's impact was reasonably recorded in the stats.
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:05 am
by rrravenred
Milkdud wrote:I commented on the matchups a disagree with your statements.
Absolutely.
Milkdud wrote:I'm a big Walton fan, I mean I'm a blazer fan so I think ive got a decent handle on Walton's peak. That being said I don't see how you can take a player who was at best a 19ppg 14rpg 5apg player and say he way better then a guy who gave you 34ppg, 16rpg, 4.5apg? He also was able to shoot a better FG% and get to the line almost twice as much.
Simply because (as mentioned, the stats don't tell the story). I'm willing to be pushed around on this, as I was going on the match-ups between the two rather than early-70s Kareem.
Milkdud wrote:Now on to Rodman vs Mullin now clearly Dennis was a pretty special player during his time but matching him up on Mullin kills he best ability which would be rebound.
I disagree to an extent. Rodman was a defensive pest who could defend both low-post and perimeter. I actually believe that liberating him from the low-post frees him to be an extremely debilitating help-defender. Walton and the Round-Mound provide some pretty effective and athletic rebounding beef in any case.
Milkdud wrote:Are you telling me that Rodman would be getting all those rebound if he has to chase Mullin around the 3 point line? Heck if you want to make an arguement how Rodman is such a great rebound/defender it would make alot more sense to atleast match him up with Duncan then a great outside shooter.
Sure. The question for me was where to put Barkley / Rodman. If you switch them over, you have Mullin annhialating Sir Charles offensively. The question then becomes to what extend Rodman can nullify Duncan in the post and limit his passing from there. They CAN be switched, although I think Mullin burns Barkley more than Duncan does.
Milkdud wrote:I had to go back and do some fact checking before I commented on Mitch vs Spree and when I did I was even more shocked that you think Spree is the better guy.
Once again, I feel stats don't tell the story. The post-choking Spree was a far stabler and far more valuable player to my mind and he was the heart of that NY Finals run. That's a perception on my part, which I can't necessarily back up.
Milkdud wrote:At best its a push but you mentioned Spree's days with the knicks as your bench mark which frankly his play was on the decline that during his GS days. Richmond was a more efficient scorer and way better a shooter. Spree was a better defender but not so much as id overlook Richmond scoring more and having higher FG,FT and 3 point percents.
QFT. Mitch was a scorer, and a volume shooter at that. Efficient too. I still think the defensive difference is significant enough to separate them, although I'm very willing to be persuaded.
Re: All-Dull Team versus All-Zany Team
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:45 am
by technologic
rrravenred wrote:Stats aren't the whole story.
KAJ's Stats for Walton's MVP Year
25.9 / 12.9 / 4.3 / 3.0 (.550) (All D second team)
Walton's MVP Stats
18.9 / 13.2 / 5.0 / 2.5 (.522) (All D first team)
Now you can quite reasonably argue that this was on the downside of KAJ's career (and what a long and gradual descent it was, from such a magnificent peak) since he was 30, but given this discrpancy between their numbers and the fact that KAJ placed fourth that year in the MVP voting (at 62 games, still playing more than Walton) it's reasonable to ask whether Walton's impact was reasonably recorded in the stats.
_________________
Thoughts?
Walton won MVP because he was the best player on the best team. Not because he was the clear best player in the league (Portland record: 58-24 vs. LAL: 45-37 with both missing considerable time).
19-13-5 (Walton) vs. 35-17-5 (Kareem) is too large of a disparity in statistics to ignore. Especially when both were defensive masters (although Walton might have been better in that department as shown above).
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:20 am
by One of Shemps Kids
Rasheed Wallace and Artest would be on the bench (or maybe starting if the only criteria is zany-ness).
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:06 am
by ecuhus1981
I'm a bit of an underdog type of guy, so I would love a chance to coach the zany's.
I would make one defensive adjustment: Rodman on Duncan. Between the nipple piercings rubbing against an opponent's back, the razor-sharp elbows he was known to give when he boxed out, and the sweet nothings Dennis would whisper in their ear, I don't think a passive-aggressive player like Duncan stands a chance. (Yes, this paragraph did give me the creeps too, but I still wrote it.)
Barkley would put 40 on Mullin in the post, easily (let's just hope Bavetta doesn't sub in for him; it could become a track meet!). Spree would force Mitch to feed his family; as skinny as Latrell is, Richmond just might believe him. The UCLA alums would duke it out in the post, but I think Walton's transition game would mitigate the damage from KAJ's half-court dominance. And with Stephon giving you "about 15 points, 6 assists and 5 dimes", there's no way the All-Zany team could lose!
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:00 am
by D.Brasco
ecuhus1981 wrote:I'm a bit of an underdog type of guy, so I would love a chance to coach the zany's.
I would make one defensive adjustment: Rodman on Duncan.
Between the nipple piercings rubbing against an opponent's back, the razor-sharp elbows he was known to give when he boxed out, and the sweet nothings Dennis would whisper in their ear, I don't think a passive-aggressive player like Duncan stands a chance. (Yes, this paragraph did give me the creeps too, but I still wrote it.)
Barkley would put 40 on Mullin in the post, easily (let's just hope Bavetta doesn't sub in for him; it could become a track meet!). Spree would force Mitch to feed his family; as skinny as Latrell is, Richmond just might believe him. The UCLA alums would duke it out in the post, but I think Walton's transition game would mitigate the damage from KAJ's half-court dominance. And with Stephon giving you "about 15 points, 6 assists and 5 dimes", there's no way the All-Zany team could lose!
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:50 pm
by gonnadunkonU
I'd take the dull team without hesitation.
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:09 pm
by conleyorbust
ecuhus1981 wrote: I don't think a passive-aggressive player like Duncan stands a chance. (Yes, this paragraph did give me the creeps too, but I still wrote it.)
eh, I think that the exact opposite is true. Duncan plays head games as well as Rodman. He would piss Rodman off by not reacting to all the trash talk.
As far as the teams go I have to give it to the dull team. Duncan and KAJ in the post together on D would mean that there would be no layups. Not a one. The offensive spacing on that team would be just insane too, every player on that team can hit a jumper, you have a HOF pg dishing it without turning it over and two of the greatest post players of all time.
No way the "zany" team is taking this one.
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:16 pm
by Nebroc
[quote="rrravenred"][/quote]
Did you say Walton is better then Kareem and Charles is better then Duncan?
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:00 pm
by rrravenred
Nebroc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Did you say Walton is better then Kareem and Charles is better then Duncan?
Peak Walton over Kareem, yes, though with heavy reservations. Charles over TD? Pff! Read more carefully.
What I DID say is that Charles may be able to draw Duncan out of the post on D, out of his comfort zone. The zany team MAY be able to win this if they turn it into up-and-down the floor and try to challenge the transition defence.
I'm surprised no one has been able to come up with alternate players who fit the "dull" or "zany" critiera better...
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:13 pm
by Nebroc
rrravenred wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Peak Walton over Kareem, yes, though with heavy reservations. Charles over TD? Pff! Read more carefully.
What I DID say is that Charles may be able to draw Duncan out of the post on D, out of his comfort zone. The zany team MAY be able to win this if they turn it into up-and-down the floor and try to challenge the transition defence.
I'm surprised no one has been able to come up with alternate players who fit the "dull" or "zany" critiera better...
Peak Walton was great yes but Kareem was a scoring machine with a unguardable shot and a better defender. And yes your Barkly theory is nice and all but what happens on the othr end when Duncan goes to work in the post?
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:05 pm
by nyu3
Rodman would be guarding Duncan.