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It is clear that MJ and Hakeem were #1 and #2 respectively in the 90's as far as who was the best, however whom would you consider the 3rd best player in the 90's?


90's only - Charles Barkley (1x MVP, 1x Finals Appearance), K.Malone (2x MVP, 2x Finals Appearance), D.Robinson (1x MVP, 3x PER leader), or Shaq (1 Finals Appearance, 2x PER leader) who was the 3rd best player?

Robinson went to the finals...

Nebroc wrote:Robinson went to the finals...

Not as a dominant player though.

In the 90's Barkley was probably the most dominant out of all those guys ...

He was unstoppable in 93 ... and among the top 5 players in the league in the years before that ...

O'Neal really became a dominant force during the Laker championship seasons, 2000-02 ...

Malone was dominant in his MVP year ... but not as dominant as 93 Barkley ...

While I consider Robinson great, the other guys were just a bit better than him ...

To me it's either DRob or Shaq. Robinson is so underrated on Realgm it's a shame.

As much as Barkley solidified his all time great status in Phoenix, I think he was a much better player in Philly. During the 80's and 91, 92 Barkley was just unstoppable. Once he went to Phx he started to shoot 3 ptrs a lot more frequently messing up his efficiency imo.

Malone I think isn't as great as the others. He played with Stockton and that inflated his numbers imo.......

Franchise_411 wrote:
O'Neal really became a dominant force during the Laker championship seasons, 2000-02 ...

Malone was dominant in his MVP years ... but not as dominant as 93 Barkley ...

While I consider Robinson great, the other guys were just a bit better than him ...

Years of domination= ownage. Mailman.

JordansBulls wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Not as a dominant player though.

Drob did everything Shaq did on offense + better defense

^Exactly. People highly underrated Drob here because of that Hakeem series.

It is Robinson or Barkley. I pick Barkley, though you really can't go wrong with picking either of them. I think Shaq is the one who doesn't belong here because his real greatness began in 2000, and Malone is the 3rd best in this group.

Tough call.

Shaq was quite dominant in the 90s and dragged a team that was pretty thin after the big 3 into the Finals, where he himself did very well. He was a monster but didn't have the sort of team success one might hope for on account of Jordan and then on account of his teammates lacking testicles against the Rockets (Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, I'm looking at you).

Karl Malone had consecutive Finals appearances, a couple of MVPs, had some big scoring years and some great team success.

Barkley was good in the 90s and especially so in '93 but wasn't actually a stunner for the whole decade. He remained a great passer and rebounder throughout but his scoring tailed off after his MVP season and he started to get injured a lot, didn't mix well with Hakeem when he joined the Rockets...

He definitely doesn't belong in this conversation, not next to Shaq, Malone and David Robinson.

David Robinson

David Robinson's best years were in the 90s and that decade was capped with a title for him. He had an MVP year, 8 All-Star appearances, a DPOY and four All-NBA 1st team appearances.

That's more 1st Team appearances than Olajuwon (3) and Shaq (1).

Shaq was 3rd Team 3 times and 2nd Team twice.


He made the 2nd team 3 times and the 3rd team once. And all that despite playing only 6 games in the 96-97 season. What else... a scoring title, a rebounding title, a blocked shots title, 2 BPG titles, two total rebounds titles, three years atop the league in PER (consecutively), 4 years as the top DWS guy, 2 as the top WS guy, one as the top OWS guy 9WS = win shares)... 4 years with the best DRTG, 2 years with the best WSAA (win shares above average).

He had three second round appearances and a WCFs appearance before Duncan was drafted and while playing on some pretty weak teams compared to his competition (the Jazz, the Sonics, the Suns, the Blazers...

The Admiral did a lot. He takes a lot of flak for his numbers going down in the playoffs but he didn't really have a stunning amount of help whilst going up against some really good teams.

Hakeem Olajuwon

So obviously, you're thinking about the MVP, the 2 DPOYs, the 2 Finals MVPs to go with his two rings.

You're thinking about him peaking as a scorer, winning that '94 title with like Tiny Tim and some dude from the local YMCA... Two titles each in total blocks and total rebounds (2 in defensive rebounds and 1 in offensive rebounds as well). 4 top-5 finishes in scoring (3rd twice, 4th twice). Couple of RPG titles.

90-91 and 91-92 represented the 4th and 5th consecutive years he led the league in DRTG (so two years of that in the 90s). 2 years at the top of DWS in the 90s. A 2nd- and 3rd-place finish in WSAA.

Olajuwon was obviously dominant; he was one of the best rebounders in the league, one of the best defenders (arguably the best defender of the decade, actually, given that he did his thing AND scored, compared to a guy like Mutombo who did no scoring worthy of mention). And there were the titles won, and won with less help than Robinson had during the 93-94 season.

That year, they got taken out by the Jazz. Admiral had posted about 30/11/5 in the regular season, led the league in FTM, FTA, PPG, PER, WS, WSAA, he was All-NBA and All-Defensive 2nd team (behind Olajuwon on both; Olajuwon was the MVP/DPOY)...

And then he crashed hard against the Jazz.

The Spurs were the slowest team in the league, a top-4 offense and a top-9 defense (4th and 9th, respectively).

He went from 29.8 ppg, 10.7 rpg and 4.8 apg on 50.7% FG (57.7% TS) to 20/10/3.5 on 41.1% FG (47.1% TS). He also dropped from 20.7 FGA/g to 18.25 FGA/g.

The Jazz took them out in the first round in a 3-1 series, then beat the Nuggets in 7 games and then the Rockets smoked them 4-1. They were 7th in both offense and defense.

That's probably the biggest knock on Robinson in the 90s, his big come-down in the playoffs. And then of course the same the year after against the Rockets, though he fared better than did Patrick Ewing in 93-94 (Ewing looked obscenely bad on offense against the Rockets in the '94 Finals).

So I think in terms of postseason performance, especially compared to a guy like Shaq, you've got to knock Robinson down a peg even though he's the guy who largely has the achievements to stack up to Olajuwon (and even a few that Dream didn't, like that scoring title).

Shaq did better against Dream in the Finals than Admiral OR Ewing, actually played quite well.

Malone played very well but especially in the latter half of the 90s, his postseason efficiency took a big hit (though that was an excessively slow, grind-it-out era and he was in his early/mid 30s and relying on his J more... minding that he started his career 4 years before Robinson and 7 years before Shaq (a year after Olajuwon).

Tough call; Malone was a regular-season monster worth as much as Robinson in that regard and a better passer in the late 90s. He was a two-time MVP, something neither Robinson, Olajuwon and Shaq all failed to match and he did it in the decade and took an MVP from Jordan, which was no mean feat (neither Admiral nor Dream won an MVP in a year during which Jordan played more than 17 games, and obviously neither did Shaq).

Karl Malone

Well, here it is...

Consecutive Finals appearances where he went to 6 games against the Bulls, a year leading the league in PER, two years at the top of the WS list, two years leading in WSAA, top 10 in DWS in 7 years during the decade (including a 2nd place finish and 3 top 5 finishes total), 5 years in the top-10 of TS% (three 5th place finishes), 6 top-10 finishes in RPG (including two 4th place finishes), 4 2nd place finishes in PPG (including being top-5 EVERY year of the decade and top-3 7 times), led the league in FTM 7 times, led the league in FTA 6 times, led the league in defensive boards twice, played 82 games 7 times, All-NBA 1st Team every year of the decade, 3 All-Defensive First Team selections, an All-Star Game MVP (FWIW), and yeah, those two MVPs.

Oh, right: 5 finishes in the top-5 in MVP voting BESIDES the two years he won the MVP and then three finishes at 7th or 8th.

So he was top-8 in the MVP race every year of the decade, top-5 for 70% of the decade, and top-3 for 40% of the decade (won twice and had a 2nd- and 3rd-place finish).

I think Malone convincingly takes the cake here over Shaq, Barkley and D-Rob. He makes a convincing run at Olajuwon, though Dream's titles hand him the 2nd-place argument in the end.

So yeah, Karl Malone; Mailman FTW.

kooldude wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Drob did everything Shaq did on offense + better defense

No he didn't; he was much less effective on O in the playoffs, less efficient and less capable at getting to the line (Shaq averaged 10+ FTA/g 10 times; Robinson, 4 times).

Robinson was a face-up big man, predominantly; Shaq was a backdown scorer who worked from the low blocks exclusively.

Robinson was a better defender and a better rebounder but never a better offensive weapon.

Ever.

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



No he didn't; he was much less effective on O in the playoffs, less efficient and less capable at getting to the line (Shaq averaged 10+ FTA/g 10 times; Robinson, 4 times).

Robinson was a face-up big man, predominantly; Shaq was a backdown scorer who worked from the low blocks exclusively.

Robinson was a better defender and a better rebounder but never a better offensive weapon.

Ever.

He was less effective in the playoffs but his regular season TS% was comparative to Shaq's, at times higher and had more APG in the 90s.

kooldude wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



He was less effective in the playoffs but his regular season TS% was comparative to Shaq's, at times higher and had more APG in the 90s.

And yet Robinson's TS was a product of his FT shooting, not his live-action abilities. Compare their respective FG%s and while noting APG, do remember that Robinson was a slasher and Shaq is a backdown scorer, which dramatically changes your playmaking opportunities.

Meantime, back to FG%...

Robinson's a career 51.8% shooter to Shaq's career 58.0%.

That's a MASSIVE gap in shooting efficacy.

Now, playoff FG%?

D-Rob: 47.9% (-3.9%)
Diesel: 56.6% (-1.4%)

Playoff efficacy is quite noticeably in Shaq's favor; Robinson only shot 50%+ in the playoffs four times in his career and one of those was his last year in the league. Two were his first two seasons.

He was awful in the playoffs compared to his regular season efficiency and Shaq has not been.

D-Rob doesn't really touch Shaq despite the comparable TS values because it's all FT% for Robinson vs. Shaq in that respect and that's much less meaningful that it might seem... as borne out by Shaq's ability to lead two teams to the Finals, be a part of a three-peat squad as the go-to guy and then make serious contributions as the #2 on another title squad.

More to the point, Shaq scored MORE than Robinson in the 90s.

Shaq scored 28+ ppg three times in the decade; Robinson did it once in his career. Shaq did it twice more after the 90s ended (in consecutive years, at that).

There's no comparison between the two as scorers, Shaq'll win every time.

^But FT shooting is an aspect of offense so why should Drob be faulted for being a better FT shooter?

Again, if Drob's style of play allows him to make more passes that ultimately result in higher assists than Shaq, why is that negative? Passing is part of offense too. Shaq's def a better scorer.

Shaq was better in the playoffs but he also have better help. Shaq had Penny and a pre-prime Kobe. Drob had Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson....

I'm not sure why you bought up Shaq's success with the 3peat and the Heat title run when this is strictly about the 90s.

kooldude wrote:^But FT shooting is an aspect of offense so why should Drob be faulted for being a better FT shooter?

Because the level of impact is too weak to really be admissible. Yeah, he's more reliable at the line (a LOT more) but it didn't translate into measurable advantages in offensive capacity. Shaq still scored more, was still more efficient from the field, still drew more fouls...

Again, if Drob's style of play allows him to make more passes that ultimately result in higher assists than Shaq, why is that negative? Passing is part of offense too. Shaq's def a better scorer.

Because his style of play was a definite negative in the playoffs because he did NOT adjust well to playoff defenses. He was a fine passer, but so was Shaq; he was merely limited by the spots he occupied within the offense. Moreover, Robinson's passing didn't gainsay him any kind of advantage. Moreover, Shaq's actually been a more effective passer in the postseason, with a career average 0.5 APG higher.

Of course, Robinson had a few years in the Duncan era where he was slowed down by being a secondary or tertiary offensive concern but if you examine his playoff career up to and including 99-00 (to include all his best seasons), he averaged 2.8 apg...

The same as Shaq.

So, when it counted, he wasn't any more prolific than Shaq as a passer.

And mind that O'neal's career average as I've discussed it has also been suppressed by his time as a secondary player. So if I goto Shaq before he got to Miami, his career playoff APG average is 3.11.

HIGHER than Robinson's.

And Shaq putting up 4.6 apg over 12 games in the 95-96 playoffs is better than anything D-Rob did in the postseason, even his career-best postseason passing performance of 4.0 apg over 10 games.

So where's the passing advantage?

Robinson had one season above Shaq's career-best APG performance.

One, when he averaged 4.8 apg in 93-94. It was an outlier. Aside from that, he only got to 3.0+ apg twice in his career: 3.7 apg in 92-93 and 3.0 in 95-96.

Shaq, by comparison, has averaged 3.0+ apg 5 different times.

So I ask again, does Robinson REALLY have an advantage on account of one regular season outlier?

I don't believe so, no.

And as far as scoring efficiency, remember that Shaq came within 0.3 of Robinson's career-best in OWS three times (beating it twice) and holds a very significant advantage there on his career. At 0.311 OWS/g, he's got a sizeable advantage over Robinson at .274.

Shaq was better in the playoffs but he also have better help. Shaq had Penny and a pre-prime Kobe. Drob had Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson....

And Terry Cummings. And Willie Anderson, and Rod Strickland, and Mo Cheeks. And Paul Pressey (past his prime).

And he didn't play in the 91-92 playoffs when he had Antoine Carr.

And Dale Ellis.

Yes, Shaq has benefited from a lot of top-heavy help and Robinson's teams weren't that great, but we're talking about individual performance here, not team performance.

I'm not holding Robinson's inability to title before Duncan against him, I'm talking about playoff scoring ability.

You think Penny helped Shaq score in isos against Olajuwon in the 94-95 Finals any better than what Robinson had helping him in the WCFs that year? Penny was too busy force-feeding the other guys on the team.

I'm not sure why you bought up Shaq's success with the 3peat and the Heat title run when this is strictly about the 90s.

I was only pointing out that Shaq has never had a problem adjusting to the playoffs, while Robinson has seen a rather dramatic dip in production in his postseason career even if you look at his prime.

the maiiilman

robinson

I have to go with Malone. The one thing I respected was how much his game developed over the years. He went from an above-the-rim physical specimen to a really well-rounded player, able to shoot with range, pass the ball and play excellent defense.

Take Jordan out of the mix, and he would have won four scoring titles, and however many more MVPs. Granted, he tended to fade in the clutch sometimes and that hurts his cause. But so did Robinson, whom I always felt was great mainly because he was such a ridiculous physical specimen. Malone was too, but his game was far more developed than Robinson's ever was.

Sedale Threatt wrote:Granted, he tended to fade in the clutch sometimes and that hurts his cause. But so did Robinson, whom I always felt was great mainly because he was such a ridiculous physical specimen. Malone was too, but his game was far more developed than Robinson's ever was.

FWIW, Dirk tends to fade in the clutch as well and, of greater import, how many big men who play like big men have really been clutch?

I can think of two centers.

Can you guess who they are?

How about PFs... I can think of guys who are clutch down the stretch with rebounding and defense and even some fourth-Q scoring (guys like Duncan and Garnett) but who generally prefer not to take the Big Shot but no one who you'd really look at and say "he's clutch" the same way you would of Bird, West, MJ, etc.

Think of the best PFs of the 90s and 00s... we're talking about Kemp, Barkley, Webber, Malone...

You could toss in a few seasons from Derrick Coleman, Tom Chambers, a little Larry Nance, maybe some Detlef Schrempf, maybe a nod to that one season of Juwan Howard's, a little Vin Baker, some McDyess...

Then you start hitting guys like Garnett, Dirk, JO, a little Amare, some Marion, a year of Elton Brand...

So now I've REALLY stretched the definition of "best" in order to give you as large a pool of players as possible, but think about that.

Of that fairly large list, how many of those forwards have really been considered clutch?

Duncan hit that shot with 0.4 seconds left before Fisher hit his miracle shot but he'd been known to fade in the fourth a bit, to flub FTs, etc. Malone had his various issues, Webber was a known choker...

PFs and Cs aren't clutch... they can only do so much. They often rely on post-ups and pick-and-rolls, all of which are time-consuming things that generally work within the scope of the offense, there aren't a lot of freelance guys at those positions who are good enough to be considered clutch players.

The best of the best at the end of games are guards and swing forwards like Bird, Jordan, West, Havlicek, Kobe, etc. Why? Because they're more maneuverable and often have superior range.

Dirk, well, he's been up and down when it counted, has had both good moments (the '06 series against San Antonio against Dallas) and bad ones (the GSW series, the Miami series, the 00-01 playoffs, the 05-06 playoffs) and hasn't really come out with a favorable balance.

But in Dirk's defense, there's another guy who failed at the greatest of levels and still managed to build a reputation as a clutch player:

Magic Johnson.

And anyone passingly familiar with the '84 Finals knows that he committed a couple of different costly gaffes that basically won Boston the title that year. He made up for it in spades, sure, and Dirk will have to do that now.

But just now, at the present time, there's really no separation between the PFs of the 90s and 00s in terms of clutchness, IMO, so I don't think it's a really valid point to raise in this type of discussion, whether it be for/against Dirk, Malone, Shaq, D-Rob, any of these guys.

Robinson>Shaq>Malone>Barkley

So Malone