Paul Pierce VS Ray Allen

ToffKobe · Post #1 » by **ToffKobe** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:27 pm

Ok so both these guys are on the same team, but I was talking to my girl and she was telling me how she thinks Ray Allen will win MVP in the finals if KG doesn't. So that sparked me to say that he's the 3rd best player on the team after KG and Pierce and she disagreed.

She told me how his game was better in every way that counted and how she thought Ray Allen could beat him 1 on 1 and we argued for a bit. Now Pierce is better than Allen in pretty much all statistical categories so I brought that up. She insisted if she were to ask other guys she knew they would say Allen is better lol.

With that said I wanted your opinions on who you think is more effective for the Celtics. They're both very important and integral pieces of their team of course, but who is more IMPORTANT to the team? Also who is better in general (not in regards to statistical categories) and who do you think would win a game of 1 on 1?

6and33areGOD · Post #2 » by **6and33areGOD** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:09 pm

So far this year it has definitely been Pierce. Allen is a much better three point shooter, and slightly better ball handler, but it ends there. Pierce has a better post up game, and although he's not your typical ultra-quick slasher, he's much better at using his size to get to the hoop. Not to mention Pierce has come up with shut-down D at clutch times this year (not all 48 mins, but he often comes up with clutch charges).

The Rondo Show · Post #3 » by **The Rondo Show** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:17 pm

Paul Pierce without a doubt. I love Ray, and he's just been money in the clutch but Pierce is slightly better scorer, a better rebounder, better playmaker and is playing D at a near All-NBA level this year. His adjusted +/- is quite a bit better than Ray's as well.

ToffKobe · Post #4 » by **ToffKobe** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:30 pm

Thanks for your input C's fans.

Exactly how I feel. I think what she meant to say was that Allen is more clutch lol, as kobeSTOPkobeDONT pointed out. I think that's maybe what she based it on lol. But I'll definitely be sure to send her this link directly.

NetsForce · Post #5 » by **NetsForce** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:12 pm

Ray Allen easily, Paul Pierce is cancer in the clutch.

hermes · Post #6 » by **hermes** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:15 pm

overall pierce is better

Albanian Damien · Post #7 » by **Albanian Damien** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:20 pm

I think Pierce is better but I think Ray Allen would win in a one on one.

EvadedHavoc · Post #8 » by **EvadedHavoc** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:11 pm

More important? This comes down to whats more important : Ray Allens reputation as the BEST shooter in the league and Clutch 4th Quarter Baskets / Gamewinners or Pierce's Ability to get to the line almost at will.

I honestly cant answer this.

Silk Wilkes · Post #9 » by **Silk Wilkes** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:23 pm

I got Allen any day. Man, his jumpers and Jason Kapono's are just a joy to watch.

However, I traded both Allen and Pierce for Kobe in 2K8

to play alongside Dwight Howard, Rasheed Wallace and Jason Kidd

.

A.J. · Post #10 » by **A.J.** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:37 pm

Ray Allen without a doubt

JordansBulls · Post #11 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:31 pm

Paul Pierce all the way, I don't even think this is close.

big123 · Post #12 » by **big123** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:23 pm

Pierce

bballcool34 · Post #13 » by **bballcool34** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:34 pm

Career is arguable, but this year it's Pierce without a doubt- though both are very important on the Celtics, but play different roles.

risktaker91 · Post #14 » by **risktaker91** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:07 am

Give me Paul Pierce.

kooldude · Post #15 » by **kooldude** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:45 am

in before kgceltics

celticfan42487 · Post #16 » by **celticfan42487** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:41 am

You're going to have to wait a long time for kgceltics. He's been suspended for a couple months now.

Pierce, it's not close. Ray Allen is a better three point shooter. That's it.

Pierce is more clutch then Ray. To Ray's credit he got the ESPN play shot, and the all-star game.

But that hides his complete lack of ability to create a shot for himself.. his only go-to play is dribble a little to the left shot over a 7 footer and miss a shot. Thankfully we have Pierce to create an open look for him.

[little known fact ever game winner Ray has hit this year has come after Pierce passed it to him, every game winner missed has been Ray "creating" for himself then just shooting]

The Rondo Show · Post #17 » by **The Rondo Show** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:38 pm

celticfan42487 wrote:Pierce is more clutch then Ray. To Ray's credit he got the ESPN play shot, and the all-star game.

But that hides his complete lack of ability to create a shot for himself.. his only go-to play is dribble a little to the left shot over a 7 footer and miss a shot. Thankfully we have Pierce to create an open look for him.

[little known fact ever game winner Ray has hit this year has come after Pierce passed it to him, every game winner missed has been Ray "creating" for himself then just shooting]

Long post alert:

You're kidding yourself if you think Pierce has been anywhere near as clutch as Ray has, and this comes from a Pierce fan...not a hater like NetsForce.

Pierce has played very well in big spots defensively (minus the Washington games) and has passed well in the clutch, but he has an eFG% of 27.5% in the last 5 minutes of games that are 5 point games or less. That's horrible. Ray has an eFG% of more than double that, 56.7%, in those same situations.

Ray has 3 game winners and 2 game tying 3's (in games they went on to lose, one against Detroit and one against Orlando) while Pierce has 1 game winner against Miami (and Ray passed it to him, I guess Pierce can't create his own shot!!!).

And no, every game winner Ray Allen has hit has not been from Pierce considering the last one he hit was him coming off a screen and Cassell passing him the ball. So that's not a fact, it's just a lie. The one he hit against Toronto was hardly an amazing play by Pierce either, KG set a great pick that knocked the Raptor down and Ray got open from 3 because of it. Pierce made a simple inbounds pass and Ray hit the game winner.

The Charlotte buzzer beater wasn't due to Pierce' ability to create a shot either. It was a bad inbounds pass knocked way up in the air, Pierce caught it and passed to Ray Allen who hit a deep 3. Very nice play by Pierce (and even more so Eddie House for getting his hands on that inbounds pass), but the play didn't happen because Pierce was incredible at breaking his man down off the dribble, forced the D to help out and he passed to Ray like you mislead everyone to believe he's done over and over. He's done that once on Ray's big shots, the one in Orlando where Ray hit the game tying 3 only to see Hedo hit that amazing buzzer beater.

Again, I'm a huge Pierce fan and there's no doubt he is a better player (and has been significantly better this year) than Ray, but Ray has been significantly better in the clutch. There's no denying that unless you are a massive Paul Pierce homer.

Oh, and I'd say the ability to come off screens well and hit clutch 3's is "creating for yourself". You make it out to be like Ray Allen is merely a spot up shooter who can't do anything w/o Pierce, please stop, the guy is a borderline future HOFer.

celticfan42487 · Post #18 » by **celticfan42487** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:04 pm

kobeSTOPkobeDONT wrote:
celticfan42487 wrote:Pierce is more clutch then Ray. To Ray's credit he got the ESPN play shot, and the all-star game.

But that hides his complete lack of ability to create a shot for himself.. his only go-to play is dribble a little to the left shot over a 7 footer and miss a shot. Thankfully we have Pierce to create an open look for him.

[little known fact ever game winner Ray has hit this year has come after Pierce passed it to him, every game winner missed has been Ray "creating" for himself then just shooting]
Long post alert:

You're kidding yourself if you think Pierce has been anywhere near as clutch as Ray has, and this comes from a Pierce fan...not a hater like NetsForce.

Pierce has played very well in big spots defensively (minus the Washington games) and has passed well in the clutch, but he has an eFG% of 27.5% in the last 5 minutes of games that are 5 point games or less. That's horrible. Ray has an eFG% of more than double that, 56.7%, in those same situations.

Ray has 3 game winners and 2 game tying 3's (in games they went on to lose, one against Detroit and one against Orlando) while Pierce has 1 game winner against Miami (and Ray passed it to him, I guess Pierce can't create his own shot!!!).

And no, every game winner Ray Allen has hit has not been from Pierce considering the last one he hit was him coming off a screen and Cassell passing him the ball. So that's not a fact, it's just a lie. The one he hit against Toronto was hardly an amazing play by Pierce either, KG set a great pick that knocked the Raptor down and Ray got open from 3 because of it. Pierce made a simple inbounds pass and Ray hit the game winner.

The Charlotte buzzer beater wasn't due to Pierce' ability to create a shot either. It was a bad inbounds pass knocked way up in the air, Pierce caught it and passed to Ray Allen who hit a deep 3. Very nice play by Pierce (and even more so Eddie House for getting his hands on that inbounds pass), but the play didn't happen because Pierce was incredible at breaking his man down off the dribble, forced the D to help out and he passed to Ray like you mislead everyone to believe he's done over and over. He's done that once on Ray's big shots, the one in Orlando where Ray hit the game tying 3 only to see Hedo hit that amazing buzzer beater.

Again, I'm a huge Pierce fan and there's no doubt he is a better player (and has been significantly better this year) than Ray, but Ray has been significantly better in the clutch. There's no denying that unless you are a massive Paul Pierce homer.

Oh, and I'd say the ability to come off screens well and hit clutch 3's is "creating for yourself". You make it out to be like Ray Allen is merely a spot up shooter who can't do anything w/o Pierce, please stop, the guy is a borderline future HOFer.

Long post reply

I was refering to game winners. Not a nice shot that came before the end of the game. That was a critical shot and allowed the Celts to hold onto the lead but it wasn't a game winning shot like the one against CHA. The 5 minutes stat is a nice one to see who a team goes to, but it isn't a game winning stat.

Ray Allen 8 for 18 .444 2 2 free throws 0 assists 2 turnovers

Paul Pierce 7 for 20 .350 8 10 free throws 5 assists 3 turnovers

Those are game winning stats. Like I said, Ray is a better three point shooter but in the end Pierce walks away with more wins for his teams. It's a joy to have them together, one who creates for his team and the other who knocks shots down.

In the end though when Ray is with the ball in the end of the game he just moves a little and shoots then misses. He's never passed the ball to an open teammate for a game winner in the past 3 years going on his fourth.. that includes a 50 win season team, and again this year when doubled he just held onto the ball realized he couldn't dribble away and shot it over a Center, 7 footer, and missed.

The 5 min stat is a okay one, but how bout we don't ignore that eFG% favours 3s and doesn't consider free throws?

+/- THIS YEAR [wich Ray has been very clutch don't get me wrong] This year Ray is a 0, Pierce a 3 on that very same statistic that you just used.

Other things the stat you looked at shows:

Ray turns over the ball .5 units more in clutch time then Pierce (why? because he fumbels the dribble, including one play I'm sure you remeber where he dribbled it off his knee and out of bounds. He actually turned it over one more time then Pierce in clutch time last night so this stat will be updated in Pierce's favor soon).

Attempts 4 unit less free throws (wich hasn't accounted the 8 more Pierce got against HOU in that game wich you know was a huge amount far more then any other game this year, once updated this stat will favour Pierce moreso)

And isn't Ray a great Free throw shooter? Not in that stat of clutch you gave. In fact 78% is Ray's free throw shooter. As a 90% overall he must only miss during close games according to that stat. Pierce respectively in many more attempts hits 82% of those. (oh and again this stat will be updated to reflect Ray's miss last night miss during the loss while the game was still close against NO.)

Ray's assits totals in that stat you listed is 2.6 units, Pierce 6.0 units

So those are other things listed in the stat you listed. You already concided steals and blocks [wich combined is almost as large an advantage for Pierce as his assists stats have been]. But at least you managed to list one of the 3 stats Ray leads Pierce in 5 minutes till end of the game listings [the others are points per 48 minutes and rebounds]

etopn23 · Post #19 » by **etopn23** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:20 pm

Why are you using stats that go through 2006?

celticfan42487 · Post #20 » by **celticfan42487** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:25 pm

Well because originally I was usuing those stats because the game winning stat was teh quickest source of clutch play and only measured one thing, conversions and failures of game winners.

the 5 minute stat I'm pretty sure is just this year and is a bunch of stats that overall favor Pierce quite a bit. Either way I'm happy with that stats :wink: