RealGM

who would you rather take?

If I could know that Carmelo would play as many years with as little diminution in value and as much loyalty to the franchise as Nique . . . I'd take him for his greater efficiency and potentially better defense. But without knowing that, Nique.

^i was gonna say melo, but you make a great point i have to agree with you....

i take dominique.

I stick with 'Melo, personally. Wilkins was less efficient and the rebounding difference isn't actually significant, especially this year. Moreover, 'Melo is the superior passer and that's pretty significant.

Yeah, 'Nique played at a really high level for a really long time but 'Melo is still my pick.

tsherkin wrote:I stick with 'Melo, personally. Wilkins was less efficient and the rebounding difference isn't actually significant, especially this year. Moreover, 'Melo is the superior passer and that's pretty significant.

Yeah, 'Nique played at a really high level for a really long time but 'Melo is still my pick.

Are you suggesting Niques stats wouldnt change at all playing in todays game/rules?

The more I see of Melo the more he looks like Karl Malone or Terry Cummings. He simply doesnt have the athletic ability to play above the rim and hes playing more like his coach Adrian Dantley. If Melo can be a successful playing SF with a leap that barley gets over a sheet a paper Nique could be something special.

Nique would have to work on his dribble but if he could take as many steps as Wade or LBJ he could dunk from the 3pt line. I just believe Niques %s would increase in todays game especialy if he didnt have the green light he did in ATL and played a more team oriented game (with todays zone it is essential). I think of Nique on the Spurs, Bulls or playing with a Jason Kidd or CP3 and he could realy shine.

Thats not to mention the differance in defense. Melo makes Nique look like Bowen and Nique took more than a few plays off. Simply put Melo would struggle on defense vs WNBA and most Mid Major NCAA teams. Its not that he cant he simply wont play defense because his lateral quickness requires him to think or play instinctive defense (much like Larry Bird) and hes not doing it.

Warspite wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Are you suggesting Niques stats wouldnt change at all playing in todays game/rules?

I think he'd get to the line a little more, sure, but he was still a high-volume chucker who was considerably less efficient than his contemporaries and who was limited because his passing wasn't that great.

The more I see of Melo the more he looks like Karl Malone or Terry Cummings. He simply doesnt have the athletic ability to play above the rim and hes playing more like his coach Adrian Dantley. If Melo can be a successful playing SF with a leap that barley gets over a sheet a paper Nique could be something special.

This is pretty well as wrong as it gets.

'Melo has the best first step in the league, or close to it and he's got plenty of vertical leap. He's just more interested in his very efficient and effective style of high-post offense. He's got good handles, a nasty mid-range J and a very good isolation skill set. He gets oops and dunks all the time, I don't see how your comment has any factual basis at all. I think that he's playing more like his coach has to do with the fact that... Dantley is his coach.... rather than any perceived lack of ability to do otherwise.

"A leap that barely gets over a sheet of paper" is HYSTERICAL because it's so patently incorrect. 33.5 inches is a LOT more than what you represent and that's stand-still, no-step vertical. That's almost three feet straight up.

Warspite man, don't sling garbage.

Nique would have to work on his dribble but if he could take as many steps as Wade or LBJ he could dunk from the 3pt line. I just believe Niques %s would increase in todays game especialy if he didnt have the green light he did in ATL and played a more team oriented game (with todays zone it is essential). I think of Nique on the Spurs, Bulls or playing with a Jason Kidd or CP3 and he could realy shine.

I dunno, if you're going to add Kidd or CP3, then you have to project the impact that would have on Melo, who has a fairly poorly constructed team that relies heavily on stuff that doesn't work well in the playoffs.

Anthony is a much more skilled player than 'Nique ever has. Wilkins had a really nice bank shot in the late 80s and a beautiful bump-and-fade his whole career... but he was never as dangerous as is 'Melo.

Thats not to mention the differance in defense. Melo makes Nique look like Bowen and Nique took more than a few plays off.

That's also a gross mischaracterization that's based on hearsay. 'Melo's a deceent team defender, he's just not a particularly good help defender (OK, he's a terrible help defender).

He has other focuses and his coach isn't calling him to task on it often enough and couldn't teach him anything about it even if he did.

Mewlo hazs gots no hops!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AFviIfeMc7s

NetsForce wrote:Mewlo hazs gots no hops!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AFviIfeMc7s

That shows no athletic ability and Warspite you are right he barely cleared that sheet of paper.

that was a nasty dunk
melo is pretty special, if he defended better he'd be great

haha, he said Carmelo does not have athletic ability....


maybe compared to Nique.

Melo's first step is flat out nasty, and he's extremely strongly built, runs the floor with ease....

I'll take that with a 34 inch vertical over someone who leaps through the roof and lacks in the other spots.

Melo not playing D is such a poor exaggeration, also his rebounding and passing are vastly underrated. He leaks out on most plays, plays with a dominant rebounder.

He doesn't get the ball in spots to create, so considering his role as a finisher in the offense, his APG are actually pretty good, and he gets these points and assists playing with another very high usage star player.

Melo is vastly underrated IMO.

NO-KG-AI wrote:
Melo not playing D is such a poor exaggeration, also his rebounding and passing are vastly underrated. He leaks out on most plays, plays with a dominant rebounder.

Actually, this year, 'Melo's "weak rebounding" is a flat-out lie... he's averaging 7.4 rpg, which is very good from the 3. He's no Shawn Marion but again, he leaks out as you said and Denver is the fastest team in the league.

He doesn't get the ball in spots to create, so considering his role as a finisher in the offense, his APG are actually pretty good, and he gets these points and assists playing with another very high usage star player.

Posting 3.5 apg is generally pretty good for a wing player, especially one who is called upon to score so much rather than create for others. And of course, AI and Anthony Carter combine for like 12, 13 apg because the ball runs through their hands in the capacity of playmakers much more often.

What a player measures at in vert at a predraft camp several yrs in the past is meaningless. I measured out at a 48" vert in 1988. How great of a dunker do you think I am?

I admit I havent seen alot of the Nuggets. I have attended 2 Nuggets practices and seen them live in person 3 times. I being a Pistons fan have watched the Pistons Nuggets game several times (It makes me feel much better after a Pistons loss (73pts in the 1st half)) I havent been any closer to melo than 10 ft and although Im only paraphrasing Tim Legler, Fred Carter and George Karl I could be wrong.

Melo is in a great setup where hes not the #1 option or focus of the defense. His team plays with very little offensive structure and none of his frontcourt teammates have a good offensive game. Its not like Hes shareing with Mosses Malone, Kevin Willis. Give Nique a shooter like JR Smith and he would be alot more productive IMHO.

Nique needs to be a 2nd option to be successfull today but he certainly could very well be. I certianly would trade Tayshon Prince for Nique but I wouldnt for Melo.

the differance in talent between LBJ and Melo is ceratinly greater than Nique and MJ so would it not be a fair conclusion that LBJ or even Melo are better than MJ? If you believe Melo who is not a top 10 player in the NBA is better than a top 10 player of the his era its logical to believe that players like Bird, MJ and Magic simply arent good enough to be top players today.

I dont believe Melo is better than Nique, Dantley, King, Mullin or Moncrief if you do I certainly would like to hear an argument other than FG% especialy when they never faced each other or even played by the same rules.

My simple question is this:

If you replace Nique with Melo does he then outplay Bird and the Celtics lose in that game 7? Do you believe Melo is better than Bird? Why I asked is that many people believed Nique was after that game and that Birds supporting cast was the differance.

Warspite wrote:What a player measures at in vert at a predraft camp several yrs in the past is meaningless. I measured out at a 48" vert in 1988. How great of a dunker do you think I am?

Right but this was only a few years ago and there are 4 and a half years of 'Melo highlights that prove you completely incorrect about his athletic ability.

I admit I havent seen alot of the Nuggets. I have attended 2 Nuggets practices and seen them live in person 3 times. I being a Pistons fan have watched the Pistons Nuggets game several times (It makes me feel much better after a Pistons loss (73pts in the 1st half)) I havent been any closer to melo than 10 ft and although Im only paraphrasing Tim Legler, Fred Carter and George Karl I could be wrong.

Wow, even I've seen them more than you and I live in Canada...


Tim Legler and Fred Carter are of questionable scholarly value. George Karl is less so, but I've watched Melo dunk on people, so if Karl's saying Melo can't jump then he's just stupid.

Melo is in a great setup where hes not the #1 option or focus of the defense. His team plays with very little offensive structure and none of his frontcourt teammates have a good offensive game. Its not like Hes shareing with Mosses Malone, Kevin Willis. Give Nique a shooter like JR Smith and he would be alot more productive IMHO.

Eh, 'Melo has plenty of structure, you just need to watch more Denver ball. Their fastbreak is very well structured and he IS the #1 option (and was leading the Nuggets to the playoffs before AI came along).

JR Smith is a fine shooter but he's hot and cold even moreso than your typical 3ball sniper. 'Nique had some troubles because the bigs his management team brought in used the same damned spots he did.

Nique needs to be a 2nd option to be successfull today but he certainly could very well be. I certianly would trade Tayshon Prince for Nique but I wouldnt for Melo.

'Nique would be a fine 1st option in the league today; 'Melo's just better.

the differance in talent between LBJ and Melo is ceratinly greater than Nique and MJ

Umm, what?

Jordan wiped the floor with 'Nique as both a scorer and a defender and as a passer in addition to all that. The disparity between MJ and 'Nique was FAR greater than that between LBJ and Melo. Trust me. I've watched Lebron in HS and in the NBA quite a bit and likewise Melo and I've watched a very large amount of both 'Nique and MJ.

I dont believe Melo is better than Nique, Dantley, King, Mullin or Moncrief if you do I certainly would like to hear an argument other than FG% especialy when they never faced each other or even played by the same rules.

King, Moncrief and maybe Dantley are all very compelling arguments, though I'd argue that Melo is at the very least better than was Dantley. King was injured overmuch but he was a phenomenal player and was better than Wilkins, for that matter. Moncrief was of course a phenomenal passer and defender but not as good a scorer.

Mullin was even worse on D than Melo and not a superior scorer, though certainly a superior shooter.

If you replace Nique with Melo does he then outplay Bird and the Celtics lose in that game 7? Do you believe Melo is better than Bird? Why I asked is that many people believed Nique was after that game and that Birds supporting cast was the differance.

Melo is obviously inferior to Bird. And many people are stupid for believing one outstanding performance means anything. Besides, Bird outplayed 'Nique that game anyway.

I think 'Melo is more capable than 'Nique as a scorer, yes. I think he's a comparable rebounder at the worst and a considerably better passer.

Where to begin?

1. You have the hindsight of history so its easy to draw the correct conclusion but its arrogant and very wrong to question those that were there in the moment. Im sure one day when you talk about 911 some snot nose brat will call you stupid for having an irrational thought on that day. Remember this post when that happens.

2. Chris Mullin 91 2 steals 4rebs 25.7ppg .536FG Ill take that today over Melo thankyou.

3. You miss my point in that I have seen these guys in person during practice and know what there weakness is becasue I see them being coached. Working at the US Airlines Arena has some perks and I attend close practices and know what the coaches are working on and what troubles they are having. No George Karl doesnt have a big playbook. Hes a iso, draw a double team, reverse the ball kind of guy. Its high school level offense.

4. Nique was the 2nd best SF in the NBA for about 75% of his carreer. You may like other players and or what they did but they werent better. If Melo is the 2nd best SF of the 80s 5-10 yrs before you have even seen his prime Why cant a Melo fan say hes on par with Bird and certainly already better than Baylor, Barry and Pippen????

Honestly if a 23yr old Melo is better than the best Nique ever was then a 30yr old Melo might be a GOAT candidate. What is LBJ then??? Certainly better than Nique, Baylor, Barry and DrJ. LBJ is already on Birds level and hes 10 yrs younger. Surely hes the GOAT????

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-Actually, this year, 'Melo's "weak rebounding" is a flat-out lie... he's averaging 7.4 rpg, which is very good from the 3. He's no Shawn Marion but again, he leaks out as you said and Denver is the fastest team in the league.

He leads all SF's in offensive boards this year. I am not going to say that he is leaps and bounds better then the "Human Highlight Real" was, but I think he does a lot of the little things a bit better.

Warspite wrote:Where to begin?

1. You have the hindsight of history so its easy to draw the correct conclusion but its arrogant and very wrong to question those that were there in the moment. Im sure one day when you talk about 911 some snot nose brat will call you stupid for having an irrational thought on that day. Remember this post when that happens.

lol, I think it's a little different in this case. I know you're massively incorrect about 'Melo's athleticism. I have raw statistical evidence and a host of empirical evidence in the form of footage. If I were to work at it, I'd find qualitative evidence as well all over draft sites and news pages commenting about this since he hit the league. Questioning 'Melo's athletic ability is foolish. I don't meant to imply that you in particular are a fool but the preponderance of evidence supports the notion that Carmelo Anthony is a very athletic player.

2. Chris Mullin 91 2 steals 4rebs 25.7ppg .536FG Ill take that today over Melo thankyou.

Do remember that he was pretty much a soft shooter for all but three years of his career and that you're picking up his career-best season from when he was 4 years older than 'Melo is now. Mullin reinvented his game completely midway through his career and it's unfair to really look at that next to what 'Melo's accomplished here. Mullin had a longer college career and the season you're describing was also 6 years into his career ('Melo's in his 5th season), so for a variety of reasons, your argument is a bit shaky.

Too, you have to consider that Mullin was playing with Mitch Richmond and Tim Hardaway, so it was EXCEEDINGLY difficult to guard him really well, while 'Melo has Allen Iverson and... no one else of consequence on offense instead of 2 other 22.9+ ppg scorers.

3. You miss my point in that I have seen these guys in person during practice and know what there weakness is becasue I see them being coached. Working at the US Airlines Arena has some perks and I attend close practices and know what the coaches are working on and what troubles they are having. No George Karl doesnt have a big playbook. Hes a iso, draw a double team, reverse the ball kind of guy. Its high school level offense.

It's simple but that doesn't mean unstructured... If you'd said "simple," I'd have agreed with you.

4. Nique was the 2nd best SF in the NBA for about 75% of his carreer. You may like other players and or what they did but they werent better.

I disagree with that vehemently. King was better when he was healthy, Dantley was arguably better at his peak... I'd even argue that Alex English was a guy you could look to as of comparable value.

Dominique Wilkins wasn't a stunningly efficient scorer but he was explosive and could go off at any given time. He was very talented but no, he wasn't the 2nd-best SF in the league for a fairly long time.

Bird was better than him every year of his career and Dr. J was better than him until the 84-85 season and as I said, King and others took their runs at him as well. Pippen was better than him through the 90s, Grant Hill was better than him from the moment he was drafted...

So really, he was more like 3rd-best or so for his entire career.

If Melo is the 2nd best SF of the 80s 5-10 yrs before you have even seen his prime Why cant a Melo fan say hes on par with Bird and certainly already better than Baylor, Barry and Pippen????

What kind of melodramatic garbage is this? First of all, we're not agreed that he's equivalent to the second-best SF of the 80s because I don't think 'Nique was better than a healthy Bernard King, Julius Erving or Larry Bird and find a good argument to be made for Dantley and English at their respective peaks. So it's more like the 3rd- to 5th-best SF from the 80s 5-10 years before his prime, which is a lot different.

Honestly if a 23yr old Melo is better than the best Nique ever was then a 30yr old Melo might be a GOAT candidate. What is LBJ then??? Certainly better than Nique, Baylor, Barry and DrJ. LBJ is already on Birds level and hes 10 yrs younger. Surely hes the GOAT????

Again, more hyperbole for the sake of shock value, ridiculous. You assume that the development curve doesn't get shallower and then plateau, which is fallacious and I know you're doing this for something other than good reason because I've read your other posts.

'Nique at 30 was a good baller, sure. A VERY good baller, yes. But I think it's important to remember that he was a volume shooter and for his period not an especially efficient one, at that. He was a breath-taking athlete and a talented scorer but Melo's scoring at a rate right now that's comparable to the best years 'Nique ever posted and he's managing to do it despite being weaker at the foul line by 3-5% and scoring in similar volumes despite taking around 3 fewer shots per game. They're comparable rebounders, but 'Melo's been better this season and last season as a passer than 'Nique was at any point in his career.

Of note too is that even as a rookie and BEFORE the rule changes, he was drawing fouls at a rate superior to Wilkins, suggesting that even if Wilkins were to play in the modern era, he wouldn't manage to be as efficient at drawing fouls as is 'Melo. More importantly, 'Melo takes a lot more shots going TO the rim as opposed to AWAY from it the way 'Nique had a habit of doing.

Dominique Wilkins has achieved the strange distinction of being both over- and underrated.

He's better than a lot of people think because they usually merc him for being a turnstile defender, which isn't accurate (though he was mediocre) and a ball-hog (which he was not, though he was certainly a high-volume shooter) and while it's true that he was perhaps more athletic and a better dunker than Jordan, his place in NBA history is not so lofty that it is sacrilege to say that 'Melo is better even now.

I think Nique's best seasons (1990 and 1991) were slightly better than anything 'Melo has produced so far...And between 1986 and 1993, Nique was drawing plenty of fouls too...he averaged 8 FTA a game over a 9 year span. that's more or less equal to 'Melo. Their shooting percentages are very similar too. Just not a lot to choose ro between them.

Nique is a weird player to evaluate. He was the Alpha Dog on some miserable teams that did very well in a highly competitive period. When "better" players arrived, they didn't help. I think that's largely because

1) The main "addition"--Moses--was shot by the time he got to Atlanta. I know, I know...he averaged 20 and 12 in his first year. After though, he stunk. The numbers don't tell the story.
2) The other "additions" were to some degree paper players--better on a stat sheet than on the court. Reggie Theus was, for whatever reason, a locker room cancer. Kevin Willis was always effective...but not as effective as his numbers suggest.

I think Nique suffers from the "he's an a******" syndrome. A few years ago, I said that I thought Dominique Wilkins was slightly better than Clyde Drexler. It's very close, so close that's it's a judgment call, but that was my feeling. You would think I'd gone to Italy and shot the Pope. People freaked. But they were virtual contemporaries; both got their first MVP vote in 1985. Nique last showed up in MVP voting in 1994; it was 1995 for Drexler. Nique made All-NBA teams between 1986 and 1994; Drexler did it between 1988 and 1995. And, at the time, Dominique Wilkins got more All-NBA first and second team (and third team) selections, and did slightly better in MVP voting. Drexler's teams did better...but he had more support. And, like I said, Nique's teams did very well for a while.

Let me make it clear. I don't care for 'Nique's style of play. But it was very effective, and it was very effective for a long, long time. He's good on paper; I actually think he was better on the court. When people try to knock Dominique, they focus on paper issues. But...look at those Hawks teams from 1986 to 1988. They're miserable. They won 50+ games a year and some playoff series...and that was when the Celtics were still great and the Bad Boys Pistons were on the rise. Nique has to get credit for that kind of stuff. He didn't have an AI or a Marcus Camby alongside him. He had a young Kevin Willis (who was play, but not great in his first few seasons) and Doc Rivers. After that, it was Randy Wittman and Cliff Levingston. They were winning 50-57 games a year in a brutal conference. I think Nique had good intangibles that got overshadowed by players that had great intangibles...players like Bird and Magic and Isiah and Hakeem and MJ.

Melo? Man, I look at the Nuggets, and I think they're loaded. Melo's got a dominant player--AI--alongside him who is not only playing great but has accommodated his game to mesh with Melo. They've got a terrific rebounder and defender (and low post passer) in Camby. Carter is a pretty good PG. They've got some chum, but there are some very good, very effective bench players. Given all that, I think the team underperforms. So I'm not sure that Melo has the intangible effect on a team that Dominique had. That's the (small) difrerence between them for me right now.

TrueLAfan wrote:I think Nique's best seasons (1990 and 1991) were slightly better than anything 'Melo has produced so far...And between 1986 and 1993, Nique was drawing plenty of fouls too...he averaged 8 FTA a game over a 9 year span. that's more or less equal to 'Melo. Their shooting percentages are very similar too. Just not a lot to choose ro between them.

Ah, but upon closer inspection (FTA/FGA):

86-87: .415 (22.6)
87-88: .335 (25.1)
88-89: .298 (22.0)
89-90: .340 (20.9)
90-91: .350 (20.2)
91-92: .385 (21.
92-93: .396 (22.3)

He had one good year in this regard but you're forgetting that he was taking a high volume of shots to draw those fouls (FGA/g is in brackets beside each year). I contest the notion that raw FTA/g is a good measure of one's foul-drawing ability.

'Nique definitely suffered from roster issues, I don't think there should be any question that the Hawks would have done better if their management had thought a little more carefully about what they were doing.

I think Nique suffers from the "he's an a******" syndrome. A few years ago, I said that I thought Dominique Wilkins was slightly better than Clyde Drexler. It's very close, so close that's it's a judgment call, but that was my feeling. You would think I'd gone to Italy and shot the Pope. People freaked. But they were virtual contemporaries; both got their first MVP vote in 1985. Nique last showed up in MVP voting in 1994; it was 1995 for Drexler. Nique made All-NBA teams between 1986 and 1994; Drexler did it between 1988 and 1995. And, at the time, Dominique Wilkins got more All-NBA first and second team (and third team) selections, and did slightly better in MVP voting. Drexler's teams did better...but he had more support. And, like I said, Nique's teams did very well for a while.

I'd take Clyde over 'Nique in a New York Minute... If you've got a player like Clyde who can pass as effectively as he did, it's worth a lot more than a higher-volume scorer at comparable efficiency.

Melo? Man, I look at the Nuggets, and I think they're loaded. Melo's got a dominant player--AI--alongside him who is not only playing great but has accommodated his game to mesh with Melo.

No he hasn't, he's merely throttled back his shot attempts, otherwise he's playing like he has every other year of his career.

More importantly, Melo was winning with this team even before Iverson arrived. He had three consecutive first-round appearances before Iverson and a 49-win season, too; AI hasn't done anything appreciable to change the fortunes of this team, I think his presence may actually be holding them back because he doesn't offer more shooting.

They've got a terrific rebounder and defender (and low post passer) in Camby.

Camby actually spends more time in the high post but he's certainly a very valuable player. Bear in mind that in his first three years alongside Melo, he played 72, 66 and 56 games and it's only recently that he's been healthy. Hard to judge how well the Nuggets would have done with a healthy Camby and no Iverson... probably about the same as an unhealthy Camby and no Iverson.

Carter is a pretty good PG. They've got some chum, but there are some very good, very effective bench players. Given all that, I think the team underperforms. So I'm not sure that Melo has the intangible effect on a team that Dominique had. That's the (small) difrerence between them for me right now.

Anthony Car- are you kidding me? Anthony Carter is a journeyman replaceable nobody. He's OK, sure, but he's also critically flawed in many areas. This is a team that gave up Steve Blake and replaced him with this guy...

I vehemently disagree with you, True... I've watched Melo and the Nuggets for about five years now and I've been watching him take some pretty craptacular teams to the playoffs and then watched AI not really panning out. I think his presence is more like a Moses Malone than anything special because he doesn't appreciably change the dynamic of the team. 'Melo's first three years felt a lot like 'Nique's Hawks to me because the parts were mismatched, ineffective, injured, etc.

Well, we