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Whos better..

some people say Kemp was..

I say AMARE is better than Kemp ever was by a landslide

Pmoney wrote:Whos better..

some people say Kemp was..

I say AMARE is better than Kemp ever was by a landslide

Never ever. Kemp was at least as good offensive player, regardless of regular season numbers (which are skewed due to Shawn playing for as stacked and balanced team as those Sonics). Show me Amare IMPROVING his numbers against elite defense like Kemp did vs. Rodman and Bulls during 1996 Finals and then we'll talk (and no, 2006 WCF vs. Spurs don't count since they decided to shut down everyone else and let Amare score at will, completely unlike 1996 Finals, when the whole Bulls' defense focused on Shawn). Also Kemp was even more athletic than even pre-injury Stoudemire: I know that it's exaggeration while repeated by some posters as to prime C-Webb or McDyess, but about Kemp it's actually right: viewed from distance, you could confuse him with a guard, and an elite one. Passing would be technically a tie, but Shawn was more willing passer (didn't have such issues about being alpha male as Amare keeps to have in Phoenix). While defense goes undoubtedly to Kemp, so I'm comfortable with saying he's the superior overall player.

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Never ever. Kemp was at least as good offensive player, regardless of regular season numbers (which are skewed due to Shawn playing for as stacked and balanced team as those Sonics). Show me Amare IMPROVING his numbers against elite defense like Kemp did vs. Rodman and Bulls during 1996 Finals and then we'll talk (and no, 2006 WCF vs. Spurs don't count since they decided to shut down everyone else and let Amare score at will, completely unlike 1996 Finals, when the whole Bulls' defense focused on Shawn). Also Kemp was even more athletic than even pre-injury Stoudemire: I know that it's exaggeration while repeated by some posters as to prime C-Webb or McDyess, but about Kemp it's actually right: viewed from distance, you could confuse him with a guard, and an elite one. Passing would be technically a tie, but Shawn was more willing passer (didn't have such issues about being alpha male as Amare keeps to have in Phoenix). While defense goes undoubtedly to Kemp, so I'm comfortable with saying he's the superior overall player.

Eh, I think that Amare has done enough in the playoffs to consider his performance against Tim Duncan legit. Passing would technically be a tie but Amare doesn't have TO problems of the same magnitude that Kemp had.

As far as Kemp playing on a stacked team, sure but so is Amare... Nash is a better passer than Payton but it wasn't like Kemp was being held back by pg play either.

Keep in mind that Amare is scoring quite a bit more than Kemp ever did at a noticably higher rate than Kemp ever did. Its pretty hard to discount that.

I'd still say that at their absolute peaks Kemp may have been a little better because he was a little better as a rebounder and defender but its a whole hell of a lot closer than you make it seem.

Also, Kemp was only at the level Amare is at now for 3 years, which is the same amount of time Amare has been at that level. As of today we don't know if Amare is gonna self destruct the same way Kemp is or if he is going to continue to improve until his late 20s.

Give me the Baby Maker.

conleyorbust wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Eh, I think that Amare has done enough in the playoffs to consider his performance against Tim Duncan legit. Passing would technically be a tie but Amare doesn't have TO problems of the same magnitude that Kemp had.

As far as Kemp playing on a stacked team, sure but so is Amare... Nash is a better passer than Payton but it wasn't like Kemp was being held back by pg play either.

Keep in mind that Amare is scoring quite a bit more than Kemp ever did at a noticably higher rate than Kemp ever did. Its pretty hard to discount that.

I'd still say that at their absolute peaks Kemp may have been a little better because he was a little better as a rebounder and defender but its a whole hell of a lot closer than you make it seem.

Also, Kemp was only at the level Amare is at now for 3 years, which is the same amount of time Amare has been at that level. As of today we don't know if Amare is gonna self destruct the same way Kemp is or if he is going to continue to improve until his late 20s.

In short, since I don't have much time now: I didn't even say anything about Kemp being much better, only about him being clearly better for now, regardless of what may happen or not happen in future. Also I'd love to see Shawn playing in the Sonics (where he still wasn't as much created as main scorer as Amare is in the Suns) next to Shaq instead of next to Sam Perkins. I beat the amount of defensive attention he'd receive then would make him a scoring champ candidate.

REGINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN

Kemp and its not close

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



In short, since I don't have much time now: I didn't even say anything about Kemp being much better, only about him being clearly better for now, regardless of what may happen or not happen in future. Also I'd love to see Shawn playing in the Sonics (where he still wasn't as much created as main scorer as Amare is in the Suns) next to Shaq instead of next to Sam Perkins. I beat the amount of defensive attention he'd receive then would make him a scoring champ candidate.

I'm sure it would help some yeah, but how long has Amare been playing next to Shaq? Amare's breakout third season at age 22 he scored 26 ppg (25.9 per 36) on 61.7TS% - Kemps top scoring season he dropped about 20 (21.2 per 36) on 63.1TS%. I think that its a safe assumption that Amare's superior scoring numbers aren't a product of playing with Shaq. For the record, Kemp had almost 2 more TOs per 36 (1.9) in his best season as a scorer than Amare had in that 04-05 season which we are using so we don't include the near two months with Shaq.

It doesn't mean that Amare is a better player by any means but in the two seasons he's had a clean bill of health since Nash arrived he's scored a lot more than Kemp ever did and in the one season he was limited a little because of the surgery (last season) he outpaced any of Kemp's scoring seasons in terms of volume and efficiency as a scorer while being significantly less TO prone.

Like I said, I could see why someone would pick Kemp but I look at Kemp more as a guy who gets romanticized because he has the best highlight reels ever and he still had so much unfulfilled promise.

conleyorbust wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I'm sure it would help some yeah, but how long has Amare been playing next to Shaq? Amare's breakout third season at age 22 he scored 26 ppg (25.9 per 36) on 61.7TS% - Kemps top scoring season he dropped about 20 (21.2 per 36) on 63.1TS%. I think that its a safe assumption that Amare's superior scoring numbers aren't a product of playing with Shaq. For the record, Kemp had almost 2 more TOs per 36 (1.9) in his best season as a scorer than Amare had in that 04-05 season which we are using so we don't include the near two months with Shaq.

It doesn't mean that Amare is a better player by any means but in the two seasons he's had a clean bill of health since Nash arrived he's scored a lot more than Kemp ever did and in the one season he was limited a little because of the surgery (last season) he outpaced any of Kemp's scoring seasons in terms of volume and efficiency as a scorer while being significantly less TO prone.

Like I said, I could see why someone would pick Kemp but I look at Kemp more as a guy who gets romanticized because he has the best highlight reels ever and he still had so much unfulfilled promise.

1) I was actually referring to Amare's sudden improvement above theoretical Shawn's level that clearly occurred only after Shaq came.
2) I think I've already said this, but I may repeat: I don't think Kemp is clearly superior player here, yet he is superior. Do you disagree with this general thesis, or just have something vs. my specific arguments?

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



1) I was actually referring to Amare's sudden improvement above theoretical Shawn's level that clearly occurred only after Shaq came.
2) I think I've already said this, but I may repeat: I don't think Kemp is clearly superior player here, yet he is superior. Do you disagree with this general thesis, or just have something vs. my specific arguments?

Yeah, I disagree with this:

Never ever. Kemp was at least as good offensive player, regardless of regular season numbers (which are skewed due to Shawn playing for as stacked and balanced team as those Sonics).

I mean, you are saying that Shawn could be at Amare's level without Shaq but the pre-Shaq Amare was still significantly more prolific as a scorer than any incarnation of Kemp, even last season when he was coming off of a career threatening surgery. This season, pre-Shaq, Amare was putting up significantly better numbers on offense than Kemp had ever touched, Shaq really pushed the volume of scoring to the next level (and the fact that Marion needed more touches).

I think its a HUGE stretch to assume that Kemp could produce as well as Amare, especially given that he was way more turnover prone. Again, comparing only Amare's 04-05 campaign (not his best scoring season) to Kemp's best scoring season in 95-96 you are making the assumption that Kemp could have added almost 5 points to his scoring average while only decreasing his TS% by a little over 1%, and he'd STILL have almost 2 more TOs per game even if that didn't go up.

I just think its way too much of a leap to say that Kemp was "at least as good" on offense because it implies that not only do you think that Kemp could have significantly upped his scoring without hurting his %s but that he might have been able to surpass Amare's scoring average (that being the "at least" part) - and all that is disregarding the turnovers which are usually neglected but that differential is pretty impressive.

I'll agree that even though Kemp didn't defend or rebound as well as he probably could have, he was pretty safely ahead of Amare which might give him the leg up on the whole. I also think that Kemp is one of the most over-romanticized players in history and that is reflected by some of the comments here. I mean, there are threads where people have said he should make the HOF - he had 3 (maybe 5) seasons where he was something special.

Of course I could be completely off base in saying that Kemp couldn't have upped his game that significantly but the rest of his career doesn't really back that up.


EDIT: I think his overhyped-ness comes from what I call my "Jordan-associative principle" wherein anything associated with Jordan becomes almost as mythologized as him. People watched Kemp play well against the Bulls and suddenly thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I also think this applies to Kobe as he is so often compared to MJ stylistically that people think that he must be the best player in the game since MJ and don't mention Duncan or Shaq (again, its not necessarilly untrue but I think it is in the back of peoples heads).

Kemp was in the era that most people here watched. I remember him being flashy and fun to watch but I didn't get the feeling that he could match up with a Malone or Barkley in terms of scoring and Amare's two best seasons prolly can. Did you get that feeling?

Give me The Mighty Tyrant King.(that's amare).

This has been done to death, and Kemp was my favorite player growing up. This is another example of overrated past players though. Kemp was the superior defender, but Amare is light years ahead of him in scoring. I think Amare can take over and dominate a better than Kemp ever could imo.

Shawn Kemp was the more athletic of the two and the better skilled player because he was defensively sound.

Kemp played for a Seattle team with a shared offence and no player scored 20. However, he routinely was a help defender and switch defender on guards/forwards/centres. He had the better jumpshot and the slightly better left handed drive.

It's difficult to look at points to say Amare is better offensively because of the different defences played in those eras. Kemp played in the heart of the handcheck era.

Shawn could hold his own against centres. Amare obviously cannot.

That said, Amare is clearly in the conversation and it's not a leaps and bounds argument. It's Kemp by a nose.