RealGM

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:57 pm**

Who's the better player, pg, and who do you take for your team?

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:12 pm**

Calderon all day, every day.

It's not even close.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:29 pm**

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ejo01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ora01.html

Calderon's one of the best offensive PG in the league. Rondo's one of the best defensive PG in the league. Calderon's defense is mediocre at best, bad at worst. Rondo's offense is good, his only significant weaknesses being poor 3pt and FT percentages. Calderon will turn 27 this September. Rondo turned 22 in February.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:31 pm**

wigglestrue wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldejo01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ora01.html

Calderon's one of the best offensive PG in the league. Rondo's one of the best defensive PG in the league. Calderon's defense is mediocre at best, bad at worst. Rondo's offense is good, his only significant weaknesses being poor 3pt and FT percentages. Calderon will turn 27 this September. Rondo turned 22 in February.

With that said...Calderon.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:01 pm**

Depends on the team. For a team like the Celtics, I might stick with Rondo. They are all about defense at every position, and they can deal with the inferior play making because KG is one of the best play making PFs in the league, and Ray and Paul are both very good play makers for their positions. They also don't need Calderon's outside shot as much, since they have the best perimiter shooter in the game in Ray Allen, a solid perimiter shooter in PP, and a solid mid-range shooter in KG.

For most teams though, I'd pick Calderon. The Celtics offense runs well through players other than the PG, but that's not the case for a lot of teams. Most teams would benefit more from Calderon's smooth running of the offense and excellent outside shooting (.523/.429/.908 on the season, vs .492/.263/.611 for Rondo) than they would from Rondo's far superior d and slightly superior slashing.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:20 pm**

Rondo and its not even close

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:31 pm**

right now? Calderon pretty easily

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:51 pm**

Calderon by far.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:25 pm**

Calderon easily.

Generally one takes the better,

Mid-range shooter [duh], 3-point shooter [duh], play-maker [5th in the league in assists, and he plays what, 30 minutes per game?], descision maker, [5-1 AST/TO ratio?], more experienced [26-27 is the right age. He isn't old [still has 5-6 years left in the tank] and has a lot of NBA and Euroleague/international experince], and the smarter player [I guess this is somewhat like descision making, but he just knows where the open man is, and when to time the pass/lob.]

over the guy who is the good defender.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:36 pm**

How much does defense at the PG position really matter in regards to winning basketball games?

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:43 pm**

maxwellcu wrote:How much does defense at the PG position really matter in regards to winning basketball games?

Depends on the team, I guess.

But again, Rondo isn't some one-dimensional defensive specialist. If a guy like Calderon has Rondo beat in an aspect like playmaking/decisionmaking/intelligence, it's not by nearly as much as Rondo has Calderon beat on D. Rondo is a great defensive PG and a very good offensive PG. Calderon is a great offensive PG and a weak defensive PG.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:35 pm**

Rondos percentages on offense would beg to differ. He is a bad offensive player and a good defender. Rondo is putting up under average starting point guard %'s while playing with 3 all stars and franchise players. They make Rondo and Perkins look so much better both of them should really be giving the three of them some of there money they recieve on there next contract because they would be nothing without the three of those guys.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:59 pm**

Scalabrine wrote:Rondos percentages on offense would beg to differ. He is a bad offensive player and a good defender. Rondo is putting up under average starting point guard %'s while playing with 3 all stars and franchise players. They make Rondo and Perkins look so much better both of them should really be giving the three of them some of there money they recieve on there next contract because they would be nothing without the three of those guys.

See, this is what pisses me off: Laziness. All you had to do was look up what Rondo did last season was as a starter, without the Big 3, and you would have saved everyone the heaping of ignorance you just vomited up. Oh wait a sec, even worse...you actually called his %'s "under average"? That's inexcusable, worse than laziness...outright lying. His FG% is 49.2%, and his midrange percentage is 43.8%, and both of those are above average for a starting point guard. He is a bad three point shooter and a bad free throw shooter, and that's it. The rest of his offense is very good. Taking you off ignore to see what you wrote was a dumb idea. Back you go.

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:11 am**

And I guess that's where you'll be going too.

Learn how discussions actually work next time. It doesn't go "It's right because I said so." Try listening to others' opinions for a change.

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:20 am**

Scalabrine wrote:Rondos percentages on offense would beg to differ. He is a bad offensive player and a good defender. Rondo is putting up under average starting point guard %'s while playing with 3 all stars and franchise players. They make Rondo and Perkins look so much better both of them should really be giving the three of them some of there money they recieve on there next contract because they would be nothing without the three of those guys.

Like wigglestrue has stated, people keep saying this and it has zero validity in relation to Rondo. I agree that the big 3 make Perkins (and Big Baby, Powe) look better on offense then they really are. But with Rondo it's completely the opposite.

Rondo's averages this year as a starter: 10.6 points, 5.1 assists, 4.2 rebounds, 1.7 steals
Rondo's averages last year as a starter: 10.6 points, 5.8 assists, 5.4 rebounds, 2.4 steals
Rondo's averages this year when at least 1 on the big 3 is out: 15 points, 5 assists, 6 rebounds, 1.8 steals

Saying that Rondo plays with the big 3 so he should have big assists numbers is just saying things without thinking. The big 3 can create their own shots and have the ball in their hands much of the time. How can he put up numbers when he doesn't have the ball?

In fact, I would say being the pg in Toronto is much easier to get high assist numbers then in Boston. Toronto has a bunch of spot up shooters and no penetrators. As a result, the pg has the ball in his hands a lot and when he passes the ball to a player, that player usually shoots because that is what Kapono/Parker/Bargnani do best and they make a good percentage of their outside shots. They can't penetrate and create their own shot really so much of the time when Calderon or Ford passes the ball that player shoots it.

On the other hand, the big 3 can penetrate and get a better shot/draw a foul. As a result, the pg doesn't get credit for the assist.

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:21 am**

maxwellcu wrote:How much does defense at the PG position really matter in regards to winning basketball games?

Very important, because most PGs adept the penetrate-and-kick style, having a good defensive PG can help prevent penetration into the lane (or limit penetration), with that being said i still take calderon.

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:42 am**

wigglestrue wrote:-= original quote snipped =-Oh wait a sec, even worse...you actually called his %'s "under average"? That's inexcusable, worse than laziness...outright lying. His FG% is 49.2%, and his midrange percentage is 43.8%, and both of those are above average for a starting point guard. He is a bad three point shooter and a bad free throw shooter, and that's it. The rest of his offense is very good. Taking you off ignore to see what you wrote was a dumb idea. Back you go.

The only starting point guards shooting at a worse overall rate (as measured by TS%): Kidd, Hinrich, Telfair and Conley...if you consider the latter two to be starters. So yes, his percentages are below average.

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:48 am**

MVP16 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Like wigglestrue has stated, people keep saying this and it has zero validity in relation to Rondo. I agree that the big 3 make Perkins (and Big Baby, Powe) look better on offense then they really are. But with Rondo it's completely the opposite.

Rondo's averages this year as a starter: 10.6 points, 5.1 assists, 4.2 rebounds, 1.7 steals
Rondo's averages last year as a starter: 10.6 points, 5.8 assists, 5.4 rebounds, 2.4 steals
Rondo's averages this year when at least 1 on the big 3 is out: 15 points, 5 assists, 6 rebounds, 1.8 steals

Saying that Rondo plays with the big 3 so he should have big assists numbers is just saying things without thinking. The big 3 can create their own shots and have the ball in their hands much of the time. How can he put up numbers when he doesn't have the ball?

In fact, I would say being the pg in Toronto is much easier to get high assist numbers then in Boston. Toronto has a bunch of spot up shooters and no penetrators. As a result, the pg has the ball in his hands a lot and when he passes the ball to a player, that player usually shoots because that is what Kapono/Parker/Bargnani do best and they make a good percentage of their outside shots. They can't penetrate and create their own shot really so much of the time when Calderon or Ford passes the ball that player shoots it.

On the other hand, the big 3 can penetrate and get a better shot/draw a foul. As a result, the pg doesn't get credit for the assist.

So are we going to say Rondo's better than Deron williams because he has an easier team to play with? How about CP? Maybe Nash? Come on; it's one thing to say what Rondo can do. It's a whole other thing than what he actually does do.

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:10 am**

Derekman wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

So are we going to say Rondo's better than Deron williams because he has an easier team to play with? How about CP? Maybe Nash? Come on; it's one thing to say what Rondo can do. It's a whole other thing than what he actually does do.

How did you draw that from my post? I didn't even say whether Rondo is better then Calderon. All I did is argue the notion that the big 3 make Rondo look better and getting a lot of assists is easy for a pg in that system. I said it's the opposite and it's easier to get a lot of assists for a pg in Toronto's system.

In regards of what Rondo does do, I posted the stats of what he has done last year as a starter without the big 3 and this year when at least one of the big 3 have been out. All the stats refute the notion held by many that the big 3 hide Rondo's weaknesses and make him look better then he really is. In reality, it's probably the opposite.

Posted: **Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:11 am**

calderon, rondos d was overrated his rookie year, hes quite bad defending pick and rolls

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Calderon vs. Rondo

Calderon vs. Rondo