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Is Melo a Top 10 or 15 Player in the Association?
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:30 am
by magicfan4life05
Mr Michael Wilbon jr. said he was on this on his show and I need confirmation from the most objective and knowledgeable posters of the land...
do you agree with him?
Carmelo Anthony
Denver Nuggets
Position: F
Height: 6-8 Weight: 230
College: Syracuse
Player file | Team stats
2007-08 Statistics
PPG 25.7
RPG 7.4
APG 3.4
SPG 1.3
BPG 0.5
FG% 0.492
FT% 0.786
3P% 0.354
MPG 36.4
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:41 am
by conleyorbust
Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
KG
Paul
Dwight
Dirk
Amare
Wade (healthy)
Yao
Deron
are all guys that I put above him with 100% certainty
Nash
AI
Boozer
Bosh
TMac
Manu
Pierce
Butler
Gasol
Billups
Jefferson (who I don't like)
West
are all up there too, I think some have stronger cases over him than others. He might around 15, but who knows.
A lot of these dudes are older but guys like Oden, Bynum, and Smith are all closing in on him.
Melo is great now but he was special coming into the league and could really be something in the end if he puts him mind to it.
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:38 am
by Silk Wilkes
conleyorbust wrote:Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
KG
Paul
Dwight
Dirk
Amare
Wade (healthy)
Yao
Deron
Bosh (moved past him imo)
AI (better that melo imo, just being held by by sharing)
Nash (2-time MVP, Phoenix is nothing without him)
are all guys that I put above him with 100% certainty
Nash
AI
Boozer
TMac
Manu
Pierce
Butler
Gasol
Billups
Jefferson (who I don't like)
West
are all up there too, I think some have stronger cases over him than others. He might around 15, but who knows.
A lot of these dudes are older but guys like Oden, Bynum, and Smith are all closing in on him.
Melo is great now but he was special coming into the league and could really be something in the end if he puts him mind to it.
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:42 am
by wigglestrue
Some day perhaps, especially if he begins playing defense.
Absolutely not right now.
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:55 am
by NO-KG-AI
Youngblood wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Bosh a bad season by his standard, and Melo improved his all around game a lot, how did Bosh move ahead?
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:04 am
by Kosta
NO-KG-AI wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Bosh a bad season by his standard, and Melo improved his all around game a lot, how did Bosh move ahead?
He didn't, I don't think. They're on the same level as players, same class and about the same range at about top 15, neither is clearly above the other. But I do believe Bosh brings more positive intangibles, such as leadership and a healthy locker room presence.
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:23 am
by Silk Wilkes
NO-KG-AI wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Bosh a bad season by his standard, and Melo improved his all around game a lot, how did Bosh move ahead?
Bosh became a true leader in the locker room, he still averaged 22 and 9 on a down year. I personally saw a lot of improvement on his post defense which used to be non-existent.
Melo doesn't play D and he gets in trouble.
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:45 am
by Baller 24
Turnover machine, terrible defense, perimeter shot absolutely sucks, and can't do anything but score. Thats definitely not top 15.
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:31 am
by ubernathan
Honestly, Melo is the 3rd best player on the Nuggets in regards to team success. Camby and Iverson are both better if you want to win, and Iverson is better as a pure talent.
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:40 am
by A.J.
If he played better D then maybe he could be in the dicussion.
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:09 pm
by Phenomenologist
Maybe you guys should check that stats again. Despite having to come back from injury two separate times, and being clearly hampered by his knees during these times, Bosh put up the best season of his career. His overall stats went down mostly because he played 2.5 less minutes then last year (though he did return to nearly the same defensive rebound rate as in his first 3 years). But his scoring rate was the best of his career, as was his FT% and thus TS%. He was remarkably efficient, having put up a nearly 24 PER, to Melo's 21.16. By no means is that a definitive measure, but given Bosh' vastly superior defensive contribution (differential, opposing players PER, watching games), the fact that he's a big, and that he's a model citizen who doesn't pout whenever things go slightly awry makes him the obvious choice over Melo. The realgm boards vastly underrate Bosh - he finished 9th in PER this year and had a much better defensive contribution then most people realize (even in an off year due to injury).
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 6:18 pm
by NO-KG-AI
"He plays no defense"
I hate when people say such stupid things. Anyway Bosh isn't a big, he doesn't anchor a D and he's only a decent rebounder, and he's perimeter oriented on offense.
Melo is an average man defender, and a below average team defender, he wouldn't look so bad if the Nuggets didn't play so uptempo either though, like a lot of their guys.
He's also at least a top 3 scorer in the league, he can put up 30 ppg on GREAT efficiency.
He grabs 7.5 rebounds as a wing, can't ask for much more there.
He gets 3.5 assists as a guy who plays off the ball... Melo isn't creating like Kobe's and LeBron's, so his assist numbers are pretty good.
I'd say Melo is right on the cusp of the top 10.
And a huge lol to the guy who thinks Camby is better, it's clear that you haven't watched a single nuggets game. Camby is garbage, he rips rebounds from his own teammates, sucks on offense, plays crappy man D, and tries to bring the ball up as if he is the PG and stifles the fastbreak.
Edit: I think my point is, there is a huge gap between Melo and Bosh's scoring, but there isn't a huge gap anywhere else.
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 6:56 pm
by Phenomenologist
Melo scores 3.5 more points per 40 then Bosh does, but on a TS of 56.8% versus 58.8% for Bosh. That is a HUGE difference in efficiency. Melo is a higher volume, lower efficiency scorer then Bosh. And given that they both have huge Usage rates, it's a dubious assertion that Bosh isn't capable of adding the extra shots that account for the discrepancy. Adding to Bosh' edge in efficiency is that his Turnover ratio is 2% lower then Melo's. And their AST ratios are remarkably similar given that Bosh is a big (which he clearly is, he's played only PF and C in his career, and is the prototypical elbow player, drawing 8.5 FT attempts per game).
Defensive contribution is always difficult to measure but based on the conventional stats of this sort, Bosh is leaps and bounds ahead of Melo. Consider:
1. The Raptors allow 3 points MORE per 100 possessions with Bosh off the floor while the Nuggets allow 4.7 points LESS per 100 possessions with Melo off the floor.
2. Melo allows opposing players about a 16.5 PER despite not covering elite players very often. Bosh allows opposing players about a 14.5 PER despite playing out of position at Center almost half the time.
Bosh has generally outperformed Melo in most of the popular comprehensive stats (i.e. PER, win shares, etc.) throughout his career. Of course, stats can be misleading, and as such I'm trying to avoid being too obscure. But what I'm providing is sure as hell more useful then simply comparing their respective attributes based on per game statistics and superficial perceptions (and subsequently concluding that since only their scoring seems to be far apart, that Melo should get the nod).
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:44 pm
by T-Spot
NO-KG-AI wrote:
Edit: I think my point is, there is a huge gap between Melo and Bosh's scoring, but there isn't a huge gap anywhere else.
Melo is scoring 3 more points a game this season than Bosh, despite playing in a high tempo system [as compared to Bosh playing in one of the slowest tempo's in the league. You used tempo as a justification for Melo's bad D, but
conveniently ignored it in your offensive break down] and taking 4-5 more shots than Bosh per game.
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:27 pm
by Phenomenologist
T-Spot wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Melo is scoring 3 more points a game this season than Bosh, despite playing in a high tempo system [as compared to Bosh playing in one of the slowest tempo's in the league. You used tempo as a justification for Melo's bad D, but conveniently ignored it in your offensive break down] and taking 4-5 more shots than Bosh per game.
This is another reason adjusted stats (like PER) give Bosh such an edge. Good point, I meant to include that.
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:34 pm
by Silk Wilkes
Phenomenologist wrote:Melo scores 3.5 more points per 40 then Bosh but does, but on a TS of 56.8% versus 58.8% for Bosh. That is a HUGE difference in efficiency. Melo is a higher volume, lower efficiency scorer then Bosh. And given that they both have huge Usage rates, it's a dubious assertion that Bosh isn't capable of adding the extra shots that account for the discrepancy. Adding to Bosh' edge in efficiency is that his Turnover ratio is 2% lower then Melo's. And their AST ratios are remarkably similar given that Bosh is a big (which he clearly is, he's played only PF and C in his career, and is the prototypical elbow player, drawing 8.5 FT attempts per game).
Defensive contribution is always difficult to measure but based on the conventional stats of this sort, Bosh is leaps and bounds ahead of Melo. Consider:
1. The Raptors allow 3 points MORE per 100 possessions with Bosh off the floor while the Nuggets allow 4.7 points LESS per 100 possessions with Melo off the floor.
2. Melo allows opposing players about a 16.5 PER despite not covering elite players very often. Bosh allows opposing players about a 14.5 PER despite playing out of position at Center almost half the time.
Bosh has generally outperformed Melo in most of the popular comprehensive stats (i.e. PER, win shares, etc.) throughout his career. Of course, stats can be misleading, and as such I'm trying to avoid being too obscure. But what I'm providing is sure as hell more useful then simply comparing their respective attributes based on per game statistics and superficial perceptions (and subsequently concluding that since only their scoring seems to be far apart, that Melo should get the nod).
Game. Set. Match.
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:21 am
by NO-KG-AI
Melo is playing next to another top 5 scorer with 0 playmakers. Melo was scoring 30 ppg on 50% shooting when he had Andre Miller as his PG, and he was the only scorer(like Bosh). I can't believe people honestly think Bosh is a better scorer than Melo.
Edit: It's even fine if you think Bosh is a better player, I personally think a player with a dominant facet of his game is more valuable than an all around player. Melo is a dominant scorer IMO, Bosh isn't.
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:30 am
by Phenomenologist
NO-KG-AI wrote:Melo is playing next to another top 5 scorer with 0 playmakers. Melo was scoring 30 ppg on 50% shooting when he had Andre Miller as his PG, and he was the only scorer(like Bosh). I can't believe people honestly think Bosh is a better scorer than Melo.
Edit: It's even fine if you think Bosh is a better player, I personally think a player with a dominant facet of his game is more valuable than an all around player. Melo is a dominant scorer IMO, Bosh isn't.
I just want to note that Melo's TS% this year was the best of his career. Now, I'm not saying he's benefiting from having worse playmakers around (i.e. no Miller), but you may be somewhat undervaluing Iverson's playmaking ability, as well as the degree to which Melo uses iso plays (though I do grant that a player's efficiency usually goes up as their Usage goes down and visa versa, obviously in a diminishing fashion).
Having said all this, I agree with you. I do think that Melo is the better scorer and Bosh the better all around player. In terms of who is preferable to have on your team, I would almost always take Bosh, except in extreme cases of need (i.e. one of the biggest goals of a basketball team is to minimize the duplication of skills/talents).
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:53 am
by NO-KG-AI
I don't undervalue AI as a distributor, he's more of a drive and dish guy though, which isn't really a benefit to Melo.
Last year after the suspension, Melo's game never got back to what it was before that, he was unbelievable before that.
I've been lobbying for Denver to go for Hinrich, and the rumor is up there now on the wiretap, I'd love to see how AI and Melo play with a guy that can check shooting guards, get them the ball in their sweet spots, and space the floor with his 3 point shooting.
But yea, we agree for the most part.
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:20 am
by KyleCleric
No