Round 2 is set (home teams determined by lower 1st round pick):
EAST:
Cleveland(AJ) at New York(randomhero)
Orlando(TmacUnited) at Miami(penbeast)
WEST:
Nuggets(Myth Breaker) at Golden State(TMACFORMVP)
Clippers(TrueLAfan) at Mavericks(ss_mav)
Please get your writeups up by Monday, judging starts Tuesday 9A EST
That gives everyone a weekend and a weekday.
2nd Round All-Time League Head to Head Matchups
Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal
2nd Round All-Time League Head to Head Matchups
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penbeast0
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2nd Round All-Time League Head to Head Matchups
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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TrueLAfan
- Senior Mod - Clippers
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CLIPPERS v. MAVERICKS
Mavs Rotation:
Willis Reed/Bill Laimbeer
Karl Malone
Grant Hill/Billy Cunningham
Dale Ellis/Bill Sharman
Oscar Robertson
Spot minutes: Sam Jones, George McGinnis
Clippers Rotation:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Brad Daugherty
Buck Williams/Horace Grant
Bobby Jones/Tayshaun Prince
Joe Dumars/Michael Cooper
Gary Payton/Michael Cooper
Spot minutes/good cologne guys: Fat Lever, Jamaal Wilkes, K.C. Jones
Position Analysis
Gary Payton vs. Oscar Robertson. Oscar is a terrific player; in modern terms, he's around a 26-6-11 player. Fundamentally sound, high percentage shooter...there's a reason he's an all-time elite player. I expect Payton to do as well as he can on Oscar...GP is lighter, but not too far off in overall size. He can (and will) body up to Oscar. And Oscar's D is nothing to write home about; Oscar won't cut into Payton as much as Payton will cut into Oscar...although, since Oscar starts from a high point, he'll still be a more productive player. But it will be close enough...the range of Payton compared to many 60s players means Oscar will be farther out of his comfort zone on D, where GP can use his quickness to better effect. And Oscar was a difficult guy as the #1 player on teams...Oscar wasn't a trash talker; he was flat out mean to teammates. His teams underperformed until he went to the Bucks; the peak Oscar led his teams to, essentially, .500 records.
Joe Dumars vs. Dale Ellis. I'm loving this matchup. Dale Ellis is a pure scorer. He's not a good passer and he's a horrible defender. Ellis may outscore Joe D--although not by much, given that Ellis is being guarded by a terrific defender, and Dumars is being guarded by...Dale Ellis. And the Mavs offense will slow down or stop when Ellis gets touches; he gets more turnovers than assists. He's a black hole on offense. I'm counting on Joe D to not just light up Dale Ellis, but to make the smart passes when Ellis does try to play D on him. And Ellis can't look for much help from Oscar, who is not a top level defender himself.
Bobby Jones vs. Grant Hill. Grant Hill was a very complete player in his peak from around 1996 to 2000. But he was a little soft and wasn't a takeover type of player--hence the failure to make the playoffs or first round exit in every year of his career. His biggest strength is probably his passing...but that's going to be largely countered by two factors
1) He won't get nearly as many touches as he's used to
2) The length of Bobby Jones at SF
As I'll show, Grant Hill will probably only get to take about 13 to 13.5 shots a game for this team. Those reduced touches will cut his assists down--down by a good 10-15%. All of a sudden, Grant Hill is a 17-7.5-6 guy in 38 or 39 minutes a game. Compare that to Bobby Jones at 14-7.5-3.5 in 31 minutes a game. Jones scores as much per minute and rebounds better...with Jones playing elite D. I'm happy with Bobby Jones here.
Buck Williams vs. Karl Malone. Great matchup. I'm not going to tell you that Buck Williams is better than Karl Malone--he's not. Buck may be a slightly better defender, but that's a tough call (I personally feel Malone is overrated as a defender). Malone is clearly a superior offensive playwer. But Buck always played Malone well, cutting his scoring and rebounding. And since Karl will likely have to take a hit because he can't shoot as much, the difference between the players is going to be substantially reduced. The differecne between Buck and Karl in this series will not be bearly as great as the differecne between...
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Willis Reed. Someone once told me, "Well, Willis Reed always defended Kareem well." And I asked..."When?" Reed's teams did better...did you know that in the Bucks 66-16 run, the Knicks hung four of the 16 losses on the Bucks? And there were three times that Willis outscored Kareem in their 16 meetings in 1970 and 1971. But then there were 13 times that Kareem outscored Willis. The Bucks lost to the Knicks in the 1970 playoffs...but look at what Kareem did in that series
Game one: 35 points, 15 rebounds
Game two: 36 points, 23 rebounds, 11 assists (how's that for a triple double?)
Game three: 33 points, 31 rebounds
Game four: 38 points, 9 rebounds
You look at that and go...wow. That's 35.5 points and 19.5 boards a game. Against Reed at his absolute peak--Reed was the MVP in 1970. (Keep in mind that the first three times the met in the regular season that year, Kareem averaged 31.3 and 17.) Here's the scary part...that's Kareem as a rookie. He got better.
Like the other starters on the Mavericks, Reed is going to lose some touches...and he's already outscored by 7-10 points a game, and outrebounded by 2 or 3 boards. Kareem is already considerably better; he's going to get even more of a boost.
Strategies/Miscellaneous
Team shooting: This is what I mean about running out of shots.
Dale Ellis (1987-91)--18.8 shots per game
Oscar Robertson (1961-5)--21.9 shots per game
Grant Hill (1996-2000)--16.6 shots per game
Karl Malone (1990-4)--18.9 shots per game
Willis Reed (1967-71)--17.0 shots per game
TOTAL--93.2 shots a game.
Well, that just won't work. I figure this team still has about 44 minutes of court time for its bench players...and if those bench players take only 14 shots in that time, the Mavs have got to cut more than 17 shots a game from their starters toget down to 90 shots a game. That's around 20%. Grant Hill, for instance, would go from 16.6 shots a game to 13.3 shots per game. Karl Malone goes to 15.5 shots per game; he averages 23 ppg instead of over 28. Willis Reed goes to 14 shots per game--he's now a 17.4 ppg player. Dale Ellis scores under 20 a game. And that leaves the bench players taking a shot every 3.2 minutes, which isn't a whole lot...so if you're expecting a lot of scoring punch off the bench, forget it. But what it really means is this...you have to change your views of the players. The shots have to come from someone. If you take three or four shots a game from Grant Hill...hey is that Grant Hill as good as Bobby Jones? Would Willis Reed at 17 points a game have won an MVP? How much does scoring 20% less and getting 10-15% fewer assists affect our views of players?
My team has, in effect, no changes. (Well, Payton shoots about 7% less.) My starters went from 74.3 shots to 72.1 shots per game. So the players you remember or read about are exactly the players I get. And that also means no issues with shooting, no potential chemistry issues. That's not the case with the Mavericks. The players they put on the court will not be the same. Keep that in mind.
We'll run, but when that fails, we'll "settle" for the skyhook. We're going to utilize our backcourt passing. Oscar is a passing wizard...but Payton 's tough man-D, and the length of Bobby Jones on the perimeter will make things tougher for him. The range of my guard trio of Payton/Dumars/Cooper will help with separation and keep perimeter defenders from doubling. The guard D of the Mavs is an issue here. Oscar was good, not great, on that end. Dale Ellis was, well, lousy. There's no other way to put it. We're going to exploit that in every offensive category.
The strength of the Mavs bench is their scoring punch. But they aren't going to have shots...so how good of players are Billy Cunningham, George McGinnis, and Bill Sharman with so few shots? I'll go with the top level D and defensive pressure of Coop, Grant, Tayshaun, and Daugherty.
Better balance, better defensive pressure, better playoff performance, better efficiency...better team. That's the Clippers.
Mavs Rotation:
Willis Reed/Bill Laimbeer
Karl Malone
Grant Hill/Billy Cunningham
Dale Ellis/Bill Sharman
Oscar Robertson
Spot minutes: Sam Jones, George McGinnis
Clippers Rotation:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Brad Daugherty
Buck Williams/Horace Grant
Bobby Jones/Tayshaun Prince
Joe Dumars/Michael Cooper
Gary Payton/Michael Cooper
Spot minutes/good cologne guys: Fat Lever, Jamaal Wilkes, K.C. Jones
Position Analysis
Gary Payton vs. Oscar Robertson. Oscar is a terrific player; in modern terms, he's around a 26-6-11 player. Fundamentally sound, high percentage shooter...there's a reason he's an all-time elite player. I expect Payton to do as well as he can on Oscar...GP is lighter, but not too far off in overall size. He can (and will) body up to Oscar. And Oscar's D is nothing to write home about; Oscar won't cut into Payton as much as Payton will cut into Oscar...although, since Oscar starts from a high point, he'll still be a more productive player. But it will be close enough...the range of Payton compared to many 60s players means Oscar will be farther out of his comfort zone on D, where GP can use his quickness to better effect. And Oscar was a difficult guy as the #1 player on teams...Oscar wasn't a trash talker; he was flat out mean to teammates. His teams underperformed until he went to the Bucks; the peak Oscar led his teams to, essentially, .500 records.
Joe Dumars vs. Dale Ellis. I'm loving this matchup. Dale Ellis is a pure scorer. He's not a good passer and he's a horrible defender. Ellis may outscore Joe D--although not by much, given that Ellis is being guarded by a terrific defender, and Dumars is being guarded by...Dale Ellis. And the Mavs offense will slow down or stop when Ellis gets touches; he gets more turnovers than assists. He's a black hole on offense. I'm counting on Joe D to not just light up Dale Ellis, but to make the smart passes when Ellis does try to play D on him. And Ellis can't look for much help from Oscar, who is not a top level defender himself.
Bobby Jones vs. Grant Hill. Grant Hill was a very complete player in his peak from around 1996 to 2000. But he was a little soft and wasn't a takeover type of player--hence the failure to make the playoffs or first round exit in every year of his career. His biggest strength is probably his passing...but that's going to be largely countered by two factors
1) He won't get nearly as many touches as he's used to
2) The length of Bobby Jones at SF
As I'll show, Grant Hill will probably only get to take about 13 to 13.5 shots a game for this team. Those reduced touches will cut his assists down--down by a good 10-15%. All of a sudden, Grant Hill is a 17-7.5-6 guy in 38 or 39 minutes a game. Compare that to Bobby Jones at 14-7.5-3.5 in 31 minutes a game. Jones scores as much per minute and rebounds better...with Jones playing elite D. I'm happy with Bobby Jones here.
Buck Williams vs. Karl Malone. Great matchup. I'm not going to tell you that Buck Williams is better than Karl Malone--he's not. Buck may be a slightly better defender, but that's a tough call (I personally feel Malone is overrated as a defender). Malone is clearly a superior offensive playwer. But Buck always played Malone well, cutting his scoring and rebounding. And since Karl will likely have to take a hit because he can't shoot as much, the difference between the players is going to be substantially reduced. The differecne between Buck and Karl in this series will not be bearly as great as the differecne between...
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Willis Reed. Someone once told me, "Well, Willis Reed always defended Kareem well." And I asked..."When?" Reed's teams did better...did you know that in the Bucks 66-16 run, the Knicks hung four of the 16 losses on the Bucks? And there were three times that Willis outscored Kareem in their 16 meetings in 1970 and 1971. But then there were 13 times that Kareem outscored Willis. The Bucks lost to the Knicks in the 1970 playoffs...but look at what Kareem did in that series
Game one: 35 points, 15 rebounds
Game two: 36 points, 23 rebounds, 11 assists (how's that for a triple double?)
Game three: 33 points, 31 rebounds
Game four: 38 points, 9 rebounds
You look at that and go...wow. That's 35.5 points and 19.5 boards a game. Against Reed at his absolute peak--Reed was the MVP in 1970. (Keep in mind that the first three times the met in the regular season that year, Kareem averaged 31.3 and 17.) Here's the scary part...that's Kareem as a rookie. He got better.
Like the other starters on the Mavericks, Reed is going to lose some touches...and he's already outscored by 7-10 points a game, and outrebounded by 2 or 3 boards. Kareem is already considerably better; he's going to get even more of a boost.
Strategies/Miscellaneous
Team shooting: This is what I mean about running out of shots.
Dale Ellis (1987-91)--18.8 shots per game
Oscar Robertson (1961-5)--21.9 shots per game
Grant Hill (1996-2000)--16.6 shots per game
Karl Malone (1990-4)--18.9 shots per game
Willis Reed (1967-71)--17.0 shots per game
TOTAL--93.2 shots a game.
Well, that just won't work. I figure this team still has about 44 minutes of court time for its bench players...and if those bench players take only 14 shots in that time, the Mavs have got to cut more than 17 shots a game from their starters toget down to 90 shots a game. That's around 20%. Grant Hill, for instance, would go from 16.6 shots a game to 13.3 shots per game. Karl Malone goes to 15.5 shots per game; he averages 23 ppg instead of over 28. Willis Reed goes to 14 shots per game--he's now a 17.4 ppg player. Dale Ellis scores under 20 a game. And that leaves the bench players taking a shot every 3.2 minutes, which isn't a whole lot...so if you're expecting a lot of scoring punch off the bench, forget it. But what it really means is this...you have to change your views of the players. The shots have to come from someone. If you take three or four shots a game from Grant Hill...hey is that Grant Hill as good as Bobby Jones? Would Willis Reed at 17 points a game have won an MVP? How much does scoring 20% less and getting 10-15% fewer assists affect our views of players?
My team has, in effect, no changes. (Well, Payton shoots about 7% less.) My starters went from 74.3 shots to 72.1 shots per game. So the players you remember or read about are exactly the players I get. And that also means no issues with shooting, no potential chemistry issues. That's not the case with the Mavericks. The players they put on the court will not be the same. Keep that in mind.
We'll run, but when that fails, we'll "settle" for the skyhook. We're going to utilize our backcourt passing. Oscar is a passing wizard...but Payton 's tough man-D, and the length of Bobby Jones on the perimeter will make things tougher for him. The range of my guard trio of Payton/Dumars/Cooper will help with separation and keep perimeter defenders from doubling. The guard D of the Mavs is an issue here. Oscar was good, not great, on that end. Dale Ellis was, well, lousy. There's no other way to put it. We're going to exploit that in every offensive category.
The strength of the Mavs bench is their scoring punch. But they aren't going to have shots...so how good of players are Billy Cunningham, George McGinnis, and Bill Sharman with so few shots? I'll go with the top level D and defensive pressure of Coop, Grant, Tayshaun, and Daugherty.
Better balance, better defensive pressure, better playoff performance, better efficiency...better team. That's the Clippers.
Re: 2nd Round All-Time League Head to Head Matchups
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TMACFORMVP
- Retired Mod
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Re: 2nd Round All-Time League Head to Head Matchups
ATL Golden Sate Warriors vs. Denver Nuggets
First off I'd like to say, best of the luck to you Myth Breaker and tell you, that you've built a fantastic team and I've always been a fan of your teams in previous competitions. Should hopefully be a good series and may the best team win.
Denver Nuggets(Myth_Breaker)
PG-Chauncey Billups/Alvin Robrtson
SG-Reggie Miller/Don Buse/Raja Bell
SF-Rick Barry/Marques Johnson
PF-Dennis Rodman/Amare Stoudemire/Vin Baker
C-Wilt Chamberlain/Mark Eaton
Golden State Warriors (me)
PG-Kevin Johnson/Norm Van Lier
SG-Ray Allen/Rip Hamilton
SF-Scottie Pippen/Eddie Jones/Toni Kukoc
PF-Shawn Kemp/Elton Brand/Paul Silas
C-Hakeem Olajuwon/Elmore Smith
Positional by Positional Analysis
PG-Kevin Johnson vs. Chauncey Billups
Key match-up to watch for, both PG's have strengths that can take advantage of the other. Billups can use his strong post game to post up KJ (though that goes away from Wilt which might not be the smartest option) and punish him in the post. On the other hand KJ can use his slashing ability/quickness to attack Billups who has been proven in the past to struggle against quicker guards.
Overall Billups is the better defensive guard because of his strength, but KJ isn't really a slouch in that department and more prolific in terms of getting into the passing lanes. Offensively Billups is a FAR better three point shooter, but KJ is better in every other aspect of the game by a pretty hefty margin. More efficient, gets to the line better, and a far better play-maker/passer.
I think KJ can use his advantages more-so than Billups can in THIS series, which would lead me to believe KJ gets the edge in this matchup. He really was one of the most underrated PG's to have ever played. I think if he were to play today, he'd be the best PG in the NBA and no less than #3.
Edge: Golden State
SG-Ray Allen vs. Reggie Miller
In the scheme of things both provide the same role, shooting. And nobody in the history of the league has done it better than both of these guys. Both are clutch and can shoot the lights out of the ball from ANYWHERE on the floor.
Reggie's Five Best Seasons (statistical standpoint)
Seasons-89-90, 90-91, 91-92, 92-93, 96-97 (combined)
Points: 22.4
Rebounds: 3.5
Assists: 3.6
Steals: 1.2
FG%: 49
three%: 39
Allen's Five Best Seasons (statistical standpoint)
Seasons 00-01, 03-04, 04-05, 05-06, 06-07
Points: 24.0
Rebounds: 4.7
Assists: 4.1
Steals: 1.3
FG%: 45
three%: 39
Scoring wise, they're similar accounting for efficiency and volume of scoring if not a slight edge to Reggie. Allen clearly has the better all around game and they're comparable defenders. Considering their play in the playoffs (where both players step up) but Reggie does more-so, IMO it's a push or the slightest of edge to Reggie
Again probably a PUSH, but if not possibly the slightest of edge to Reggie.
SF Scottie Pippen vs. Rick Barry
Let's get this out of the way, Barry is the better player, but I think in an All-Time league where scoring is easy to come by, Pippen is the comparable rebounder but far better defender, passer and just all around player. Pippen would definitely do a better job on Barry, then Barry would do on Pippen if they were to choose that matchup
Edge to Barry, but in the grand scheme of things Pippen might be a more valuable piece in terms of winning a series.
PF- Shawn Kemp vs. Dennis Rodman
Battle of different games. Rodman rebounder/defender SUPREME, Kemp an explosive offensive player with great finishing ability. Overall he'd definitely slow down Kemp but Rodman wasn't much to worry about on the offensive end which lowers his value since he can be left to go and either double or help. I honestly don't need his scoring as much, just focus on rebounding and don't make the differential TOO big.
Wash
C- Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Wilt Chamberlain
One word describes this matchup, WOW. Arguably two of the top three two way C's to have ever played the game, just absolutely dominant on both ends. Defensively, they're almost a wash if not a SLIGHT edge to Hakeem, but Wilt was better in every other category (passing, scoring, and rebounding). Hakeem would be a better option in the clutch though considering he is not a poor FT shooter like Chamberlain and is able to stay on the floor.
Looking at the stats, Wilt would trump any player in the league by a HUGE margin, but I honestly think factoring in pace, shot attempts (in the 50 point per game season, he nearly averaged 40 shot attempts per game and 17 FTA's per game, that's absolutely ridiculous!!) and minute distribution (where Wilt averaged one season OVER 48 minutes per game...) the stats and impact would be similar.
Anyways, no excuses, but factoring in all those accounts, Wilt would still get the edge, but Hakeem would definitely hold his own and it'd be a matchup of the century!
Bench
Tough comparison, comparable defensively with great defensive players on both sides. Buse, Bell, Robertson, Eaton and Johnson to Jones, Smith, Brand, Van Lier and Silas. Considering it's comparable defensively, I feel I have the edge offensively. Hamilton is a consistent 20 ppg option, as well as Brand (very unselfish so I'd see no reason why they wouldn't adjust) and Jones was a also a very good offensive player in his prime (4th all time in three point made). Even a guy like Kukoc can come off the bench and provide an all around offensive game and good play-making ability.
I tried to build a bench that'd be good on both ends and really give a spark off the bench, and I can see Myth had the same plan, but I think while we're comparable defensively off the bench, I definitely have the more offensive firepower which would give me the advantage in this matchup
Edge: Golden State
Defensive Comparison
Another tough one, Wilt-Hakeem is probably a wash, Billups and Rodman have the edge over their counterparts (but considering Rodman wasn't much of an offensive player, then it's almost irrelevant since Kemp is bound to outproduce Rodman on the offensive end) and where I feel I take the edge with the benches being near similar is the Pippen v. Barry matchup. Barry is not regarded as a good defender while Pippen is arguably the GOAT defender at the SF position, he was just ridiculous man to man and weakside.
My TWO best defensive players that are regarded as Top 3 if not the best at their respective positions defensively are covering HIS two best offensive players in Wilt and Barry.
Offensive Comparison
Wilt and Barry are probably the two best offensive players in the series, but like mentioned I have my two best defenders on both of them while I truly think KJ will create too many problems for the Nuggets with his speed and quickness, then Pippen should also have a big series offensively. Allen and Reggie would cancel each other out. Overall though Pippen and Hakeem can only limit Barry an Wilt to an extent which gives his starting lineup the definite edge offensively. But like mentioned above I think my bench in terms of all around offensive efficiency an output has the clear edge.
Overall Denver probably has the slight edge offensively due to having the most dominant offensive player, but in reality it's probably a wash.
Outlook
It honestly could go either way, both teams are very comparable both offensively and defensively, but due to feeling I can take more advantage of certain matchups compared to how much he can with my roster would give me the edge overall.
Warriors in 7 AT HOME.
Will add more later, kinda tired.
First off I'd like to say, best of the luck to you Myth Breaker and tell you, that you've built a fantastic team and I've always been a fan of your teams in previous competitions. Should hopefully be a good series and may the best team win.
Denver Nuggets(Myth_Breaker)
PG-Chauncey Billups/Alvin Robrtson
SG-Reggie Miller/Don Buse/Raja Bell
SF-Rick Barry/Marques Johnson
PF-Dennis Rodman/Amare Stoudemire/Vin Baker
C-Wilt Chamberlain/Mark Eaton
Golden State Warriors (me)
PG-Kevin Johnson/Norm Van Lier
SG-Ray Allen/Rip Hamilton
SF-Scottie Pippen/Eddie Jones/Toni Kukoc
PF-Shawn Kemp/Elton Brand/Paul Silas
C-Hakeem Olajuwon/Elmore Smith
Positional by Positional Analysis
PG-Kevin Johnson vs. Chauncey Billups
Key match-up to watch for, both PG's have strengths that can take advantage of the other. Billups can use his strong post game to post up KJ (though that goes away from Wilt which might not be the smartest option) and punish him in the post. On the other hand KJ can use his slashing ability/quickness to attack Billups who has been proven in the past to struggle against quicker guards.
Overall Billups is the better defensive guard because of his strength, but KJ isn't really a slouch in that department and more prolific in terms of getting into the passing lanes. Offensively Billups is a FAR better three point shooter, but KJ is better in every other aspect of the game by a pretty hefty margin. More efficient, gets to the line better, and a far better play-maker/passer.
I think KJ can use his advantages more-so than Billups can in THIS series, which would lead me to believe KJ gets the edge in this matchup. He really was one of the most underrated PG's to have ever played. I think if he were to play today, he'd be the best PG in the NBA and no less than #3.
Edge: Golden State
SG-Ray Allen vs. Reggie Miller
In the scheme of things both provide the same role, shooting. And nobody in the history of the league has done it better than both of these guys. Both are clutch and can shoot the lights out of the ball from ANYWHERE on the floor.
Reggie's Five Best Seasons (statistical standpoint)
Seasons-89-90, 90-91, 91-92, 92-93, 96-97 (combined)
Points: 22.4
Rebounds: 3.5
Assists: 3.6
Steals: 1.2
FG%: 49
three%: 39
Allen's Five Best Seasons (statistical standpoint)
Seasons 00-01, 03-04, 04-05, 05-06, 06-07
Points: 24.0
Rebounds: 4.7
Assists: 4.1
Steals: 1.3
FG%: 45
three%: 39
Scoring wise, they're similar accounting for efficiency and volume of scoring if not a slight edge to Reggie. Allen clearly has the better all around game and they're comparable defenders. Considering their play in the playoffs (where both players step up) but Reggie does more-so, IMO it's a push or the slightest of edge to Reggie
Again probably a PUSH, but if not possibly the slightest of edge to Reggie.
SF Scottie Pippen vs. Rick Barry
Let's get this out of the way, Barry is the better player, but I think in an All-Time league where scoring is easy to come by, Pippen is the comparable rebounder but far better defender, passer and just all around player. Pippen would definitely do a better job on Barry, then Barry would do on Pippen if they were to choose that matchup
Edge to Barry, but in the grand scheme of things Pippen might be a more valuable piece in terms of winning a series.
PF- Shawn Kemp vs. Dennis Rodman
Battle of different games. Rodman rebounder/defender SUPREME, Kemp an explosive offensive player with great finishing ability. Overall he'd definitely slow down Kemp but Rodman wasn't much to worry about on the offensive end which lowers his value since he can be left to go and either double or help. I honestly don't need his scoring as much, just focus on rebounding and don't make the differential TOO big.
Wash
C- Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Wilt Chamberlain
One word describes this matchup, WOW. Arguably two of the top three two way C's to have ever played the game, just absolutely dominant on both ends. Defensively, they're almost a wash if not a SLIGHT edge to Hakeem, but Wilt was better in every other category (passing, scoring, and rebounding). Hakeem would be a better option in the clutch though considering he is not a poor FT shooter like Chamberlain and is able to stay on the floor.
Looking at the stats, Wilt would trump any player in the league by a HUGE margin, but I honestly think factoring in pace, shot attempts (in the 50 point per game season, he nearly averaged 40 shot attempts per game and 17 FTA's per game, that's absolutely ridiculous!!) and minute distribution (where Wilt averaged one season OVER 48 minutes per game...) the stats and impact would be similar.
Anyways, no excuses, but factoring in all those accounts, Wilt would still get the edge, but Hakeem would definitely hold his own and it'd be a matchup of the century!
Bench
Tough comparison, comparable defensively with great defensive players on both sides. Buse, Bell, Robertson, Eaton and Johnson to Jones, Smith, Brand, Van Lier and Silas. Considering it's comparable defensively, I feel I have the edge offensively. Hamilton is a consistent 20 ppg option, as well as Brand (very unselfish so I'd see no reason why they wouldn't adjust) and Jones was a also a very good offensive player in his prime (4th all time in three point made). Even a guy like Kukoc can come off the bench and provide an all around offensive game and good play-making ability.
I tried to build a bench that'd be good on both ends and really give a spark off the bench, and I can see Myth had the same plan, but I think while we're comparable defensively off the bench, I definitely have the more offensive firepower which would give me the advantage in this matchup
Edge: Golden State
Defensive Comparison
Another tough one, Wilt-Hakeem is probably a wash, Billups and Rodman have the edge over their counterparts (but considering Rodman wasn't much of an offensive player, then it's almost irrelevant since Kemp is bound to outproduce Rodman on the offensive end) and where I feel I take the edge with the benches being near similar is the Pippen v. Barry matchup. Barry is not regarded as a good defender while Pippen is arguably the GOAT defender at the SF position, he was just ridiculous man to man and weakside.
My TWO best defensive players that are regarded as Top 3 if not the best at their respective positions defensively are covering HIS two best offensive players in Wilt and Barry.
Offensive Comparison
Wilt and Barry are probably the two best offensive players in the series, but like mentioned I have my two best defenders on both of them while I truly think KJ will create too many problems for the Nuggets with his speed and quickness, then Pippen should also have a big series offensively. Allen and Reggie would cancel each other out. Overall though Pippen and Hakeem can only limit Barry an Wilt to an extent which gives his starting lineup the definite edge offensively. But like mentioned above I think my bench in terms of all around offensive efficiency an output has the clear edge.
Overall Denver probably has the slight edge offensively due to having the most dominant offensive player, but in reality it's probably a wash.
Outlook
It honestly could go either way, both teams are very comparable both offensively and defensively, but due to feeling I can take more advantage of certain matchups compared to how much he can with my roster would give me the edge overall.
Warriors in 7 AT HOME.
Will add more later, kinda tired.
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TMU
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First of all, penbeast0, I wish you good luck. Hopefully, the winner of this Florida Bowl can bring home the O'Brien Trophy!!!
Miami vs. Orlando
Heat Roster
PG: Johnson/Harper
SG: Wade/Harper
SF: James
PF: McAdoo/Nance
C: Mutombo/Sikma
Magic Roster
PG: Kidd/DJ
SG: DJ/Dantley
SF: McGrady
PF: Nowitzki/Roundfield
C: Russell/Rollins
Johnson vs. Kidd
Both players are great passers with high basketball IQ and great assist/TO ratio. Kidd is a superior defender but Magic is a much better consistent scorer.
Advantage: Heat
Wade vs. DJ
Both players are similar in size but DJ is quicker with D-Wade being more stronger and more explosive. However, I can't deny Wade's ability to lead the Heat to a championship.
Advantage: Heat
James vs. McGrady
We're looking at a 5-year prime McGrady (starting from 00' season - 05' playoffs). Pen's argument is not lucid because his numbers include McGrady's CAREER number against LeBron and not just numbers during McGrady's prime. For the relevance of this matchup, one must compare the H2H matchups that took place between 03'-05'. I have seen most of these games, and I saw that McGrady and James did guard one another (played 5 games against each other but in one of them LeBron left scoring only 3 points in 17 minutes).
H2H matchup (03'-05')
James: 24.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.0 bpg, 4.5 topg, 43% FG, 41% 3PT, 73% FT
T-Mac: 35.6 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 6.5 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.3 bpg, 1.8 topg, .48% FG, 47% 3PT, 79% FT
While I think if today's LeBron went against T-Mac of 02'-03', the gap could be closer, but numbers have shown that prime McGrady doesn't fear LeBron and had played well against him.
As you can see McGrady destroyed LeBron in almost all aspects of the game. On the other hand, D-Wade has never guarded Prime McGrady. At least during that span, it's been Odom, Eddie Jones, or Caron Butler.
Advantage: McGrady
McAdoo vs. Nowitzki
As former MVPs, both players are terrific scorers with great outside shooting. However, Nowitzki is a considerably better ball-handler and a passer. Plus, while McAdoo averaged over 2 blocks in his prime, overall he didn't have a reputation as a defender.
McAdoo was criticized for his defensive efforts. But then again, despite his criticism, I don't think McAdoo was a poor defender. I just don't think he was great defensively.
Dirk is perhaps one of the worst defenders entering this league. Perhaps many of you guys remember when Dirk was called "Irk," because he played no D.
However, the Dirk Nowitzki on my team is the one of the 03'-08' season and his early criticism is irrelevant to this discussion. Under Avery Johnson, his defense has improved significantly (especially his man-to-man defense) averaging 13.32 defensive win shares per season; not a great number but still respectable. I think Dirk and McAdoo was comparable defenders.
Plus, what I really like about Dirk is that he is extremely efficient without the ball, i.e.: he's a great catch and shooter. I also like Dirk's 3-point shooting in this matchup.
Indeed this is an intriguing matchup, while McAdoo is more of a dominant scorer, Nowitzki has proven that he is effective off-ball which doesn't interfere with the roles of his teammates. These two should off-set each other.
Advantage: Push
Mutombo vs. Russell
Agree with everything penbeast0 said. I think both he and I agree that Russell has the edge with his better man-to-man defense and passing.
Prime Russell has very few flaws. And when it comes to playoffs, the man had elevated in every aspect of the game: shooting %, FT%, ppg, rpg, apg, you name it. Moreover, his intangibles as a player can't be matched by anyone on the Heat's roster.
Advantage: Magic
Heat Bench vs. Magic Bench
If you are looking at talent and scorers as a whole, you will say that Miami has an edge. While Dantley is the best scorer off the bench (Roundfield will also see some action) in this series, but Miami has Sikma, Nance, and Harper (also reserves, Dandrige and Daniels), who are all great scorers. If you're looking at offense only, his bench kills mine.
However, my team is composed of role players who can impact the game without scoring: defense and ball movement. I also think my bench's defense is better than pen's. I am not saying that his bench plays poor defense, but I think mine's better. Overall, if you emphasis is defense and having players with well-defined roles, I'd say my bench is more favorable.
With regards to my team's defense. I want to expand on Rollins. I think Rollins was one of the most underrated defenders of all-time; maybe he wasn't well-recognized, because he didn't play a lot of minutes. I guess that makes him an ideal defensive anchor off the bench. Rollins had size and was a good rebounder and shotblocker; he finished top 3 in blocked shots 6 times. At the time of his retirement, he was fourth all-time in career blocked shots (behind Hakeem, KAJ, and Eaton). Sikma is one of the most cerebral players in the league who also grabs a lot of boards and plays great defense, but I think Rollins is slightly better defensively based on per minute production (which is important because usually bench players don't see a lot of minutes).
Nance has significant height advantage and is the better shotblocker. Roundfield in my opinion is a better rebounder than Nance as indicated by total rebounding rate % during their primes.
Battier will see limited playing time as a defender and a spot-up shooter.
Dantley is my main scoring threat off the bench and he is the best non-starting scorer in this series. His only purpose is to expose mismatch in the low post and provide efficient scoring off the bench. People see him as a mere post player which is false. In fact, he is an excellent open court player, a greater outside shooter and a terrific slasher to the basket. An outstanding scorer all-around, with 54% FG.
His mental approach to the game was very strong and his will to dominate on offense cannot be fathomed or put into words. In this series, I think he's an ideal explosive scorer off the bench.
Dantley will NOT slow down my team's offense. Moreover, the Utah team that he played in was one of the fasterst teams in the league. Consider the pace factor of 81' - 85' Jazz.
80'-81' Jazz: 97.7 (23rd of 23)
81'-82' Jazz: 103.9 (3rd of 23)
82'-83' Jazz: 107.3 (2nd of 23)
83'-84' Jazz: 104.9 (3rd of 23)
84'-85' Jazz: 105.1 (2nd of 23)
And finally, Mookie will see limited playing time in this series. If he sees minutes, he'll be used to bring up the ball and initiate fast breaks. On the other end of the court, he's also a good defender.
Advantage: Push, but I like mine better.
---------------------------------------------
Pen has built an awesome team with a lot of players that I like: Magic, Wade, Sikma, Mutombo, and Harper. However, I do have a concern main and it's not about ego's colliding and an emergence of a headcase; I personally believe there aren't enough balls in his system.
I think Miami has too starters that dominates the ball, especially with guys like Wade, LeBron and McAdoo. Of course, for players who dominate the ball, high usage rate equates to high number of turnovers.
Usage Rate (considering players over 25%)
Miami Heat Starters
Dwyane Wade: 31.2
LeBron James: 31.2
Bob McAdoo: 25.8
Orlando Magic Starters
Tracy McGrady: 30.8
Dirk Nowitzki: 26.4
As you can see, as talented as they are, 3 of Miami's starters have high usage rate. My team only has two, and they are my main offensive tools.
Maybe a team can get away with having many high usage players. But now, let's consider the turnovers.
Turnovers
Miami Heat Starters
Dwyane Wade: 3.9
LeBron James: 3.3
Bob McAdoo: ? (TOs weren't measure prior to 78'-79' season, but McAdoo averaged 4.1 turnovers per game during 77' - 80'. Considering that his prime was in 74'-78', I assume it was higher.)
Orlando Magic Starters
Tracy McGrady: 2.6
Dirk Nowitzki: 2.0
Again, among Miami's starters who have a usage rate of over 25%, they also have a considerably higher number of turnovers per game.
While McGrady and Nowitzki have high usage rate %, their turnovers are considerably lower. That's because they can come off screens and perform as catch-and-shooters. While McGrady and Dirk both dominate the ball, there is a subtle difference and it's not to the same extend as to Wade and James whose TO numbers indicate that their biggest strength is shown when they possess the basketball in their hands.
With Magic being their primary ball-handler, I think having players like McAdoo, Wade, and LeBron makes the team appear "too crowded". It is often the case that having too many high usage players... - there aren't enough balls to go around the roster. More things can be said about Miami's bench, where almost every player takes at least 14 FGA and has a usage rate of 20.
I think pen's team looks best on paper in this competition with a wide variety of talented players. However, I honestly believe my team is more well-rounded, and gives a more balanced production on the court. My team offers more defense, more range that leads to better spacing, more defined-roles, and our center, Russell, is the glue guy that holds the entity of this team.
Miami vs. Orlando
Heat Roster
PG: Johnson/Harper
SG: Wade/Harper
SF: James
PF: McAdoo/Nance
C: Mutombo/Sikma
Magic Roster
PG: Kidd/DJ
SG: DJ/Dantley
SF: McGrady
PF: Nowitzki/Roundfield
C: Russell/Rollins
Johnson vs. Kidd
Both players are great passers with high basketball IQ and great assist/TO ratio. Kidd is a superior defender but Magic is a much better consistent scorer.
Advantage: Heat
Wade vs. DJ
Both players are similar in size but DJ is quicker with D-Wade being more stronger and more explosive. However, I can't deny Wade's ability to lead the Heat to a championship.
Advantage: Heat
James vs. McGrady
We're looking at a 5-year prime McGrady (starting from 00' season - 05' playoffs). Pen's argument is not lucid because his numbers include McGrady's CAREER number against LeBron and not just numbers during McGrady's prime. For the relevance of this matchup, one must compare the H2H matchups that took place between 03'-05'. I have seen most of these games, and I saw that McGrady and James did guard one another (played 5 games against each other but in one of them LeBron left scoring only 3 points in 17 minutes).
H2H matchup (03'-05')
James: 24.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.0 bpg, 4.5 topg, 43% FG, 41% 3PT, 73% FT
T-Mac: 35.6 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 6.5 apg, 2.0 spg, 0.3 bpg, 1.8 topg, .48% FG, 47% 3PT, 79% FT
While I think if today's LeBron went against T-Mac of 02'-03', the gap could be closer, but numbers have shown that prime McGrady doesn't fear LeBron and had played well against him.
As you can see McGrady destroyed LeBron in almost all aspects of the game. On the other hand, D-Wade has never guarded Prime McGrady. At least during that span, it's been Odom, Eddie Jones, or Caron Butler.
Advantage: McGrady
McAdoo vs. Nowitzki
As former MVPs, both players are terrific scorers with great outside shooting. However, Nowitzki is a considerably better ball-handler and a passer. Plus, while McAdoo averaged over 2 blocks in his prime, overall he didn't have a reputation as a defender.
NBA.com wrote:Extremely sensitive to criticism, especially about his perceived lack of defensive skills, McAdoo's withdrawn manner won him few friends in the media or in Buffalo.
McAdoo was criticized for his defensive efforts. But then again, despite his criticism, I don't think McAdoo was a poor defender. I just don't think he was great defensively.
Dirk is perhaps one of the worst defenders entering this league. Perhaps many of you guys remember when Dirk was called "Irk," because he played no D.
However, the Dirk Nowitzki on my team is the one of the 03'-08' season and his early criticism is irrelevant to this discussion. Under Avery Johnson, his defense has improved significantly (especially his man-to-man defense) averaging 13.32 defensive win shares per season; not a great number but still respectable. I think Dirk and McAdoo was comparable defenders.Plus, what I really like about Dirk is that he is extremely efficient without the ball, i.e.: he's a great catch and shooter. I also like Dirk's 3-point shooting in this matchup.
Indeed this is an intriguing matchup, while McAdoo is more of a dominant scorer, Nowitzki has proven that he is effective off-ball which doesn't interfere with the roles of his teammates. These two should off-set each other.
Advantage: Push
Mutombo vs. Russell
Agree with everything penbeast0 said. I think both he and I agree that Russell has the edge with his better man-to-man defense and passing.
Prime Russell has very few flaws. And when it comes to playoffs, the man had elevated in every aspect of the game: shooting %, FT%, ppg, rpg, apg, you name it. Moreover, his intangibles as a player can't be matched by anyone on the Heat's roster.
Advantage: Magic
Heat Bench vs. Magic Bench
If you are looking at talent and scorers as a whole, you will say that Miami has an edge. While Dantley is the best scorer off the bench (Roundfield will also see some action) in this series, but Miami has Sikma, Nance, and Harper (also reserves, Dandrige and Daniels), who are all great scorers. If you're looking at offense only, his bench kills mine.
However, my team is composed of role players who can impact the game without scoring: defense and ball movement. I also think my bench's defense is better than pen's. I am not saying that his bench plays poor defense, but I think mine's better. Overall, if you emphasis is defense and having players with well-defined roles, I'd say my bench is more favorable.
With regards to my team's defense. I want to expand on Rollins. I think Rollins was one of the most underrated defenders of all-time; maybe he wasn't well-recognized, because he didn't play a lot of minutes. I guess that makes him an ideal defensive anchor off the bench. Rollins had size and was a good rebounder and shotblocker; he finished top 3 in blocked shots 6 times. At the time of his retirement, he was fourth all-time in career blocked shots (behind Hakeem, KAJ, and Eaton). Sikma is one of the most cerebral players in the league who also grabs a lot of boards and plays great defense, but I think Rollins is slightly better defensively based on per minute production (which is important because usually bench players don't see a lot of minutes).
Nance has significant height advantage and is the better shotblocker. Roundfield in my opinion is a better rebounder than Nance as indicated by total rebounding rate % during their primes.
Battier will see limited playing time as a defender and a spot-up shooter.
Dantley is my main scoring threat off the bench and he is the best non-starting scorer in this series. His only purpose is to expose mismatch in the low post and provide efficient scoring off the bench. People see him as a mere post player which is false. In fact, he is an excellent open court player, a greater outside shooter and a terrific slasher to the basket. An outstanding scorer all-around, with 54% FG.
His mental approach to the game was very strong and his will to dominate on offense cannot be fathomed or put into words. In this series, I think he's an ideal explosive scorer off the bench.
NBA.com wrote:On the court, the athletic Dantley was as smooth an outside shooter as could be, a force on the inside with an explosive first step, and a master of psychology. Sometimes he intentionally allowed his first shot of the game to be blocked, and then, for the rest of the night, he used his patented head fake to burn his defender.
Dantley will NOT slow down my team's offense. Moreover, the Utah team that he played in was one of the fasterst teams in the league. Consider the pace factor of 81' - 85' Jazz.
80'-81' Jazz: 97.7 (23rd of 23)
81'-82' Jazz: 103.9 (3rd of 23)
82'-83' Jazz: 107.3 (2nd of 23)
83'-84' Jazz: 104.9 (3rd of 23)
84'-85' Jazz: 105.1 (2nd of 23)
And finally, Mookie will see limited playing time in this series. If he sees minutes, he'll be used to bring up the ball and initiate fast breaks. On the other end of the court, he's also a good defender.
Advantage: Push, but I like mine better.
---------------------------------------------
Pen has built an awesome team with a lot of players that I like: Magic, Wade, Sikma, Mutombo, and Harper. However, I do have a concern main and it's not about ego's colliding and an emergence of a headcase; I personally believe there aren't enough balls in his system.
I think Miami has too starters that dominates the ball, especially with guys like Wade, LeBron and McAdoo. Of course, for players who dominate the ball, high usage rate equates to high number of turnovers.
Usage Rate (considering players over 25%)
Miami Heat Starters
Dwyane Wade: 31.2
LeBron James: 31.2
Bob McAdoo: 25.8
Orlando Magic Starters
Tracy McGrady: 30.8
Dirk Nowitzki: 26.4
As you can see, as talented as they are, 3 of Miami's starters have high usage rate. My team only has two, and they are my main offensive tools.
Maybe a team can get away with having many high usage players. But now, let's consider the turnovers.
Turnovers
Miami Heat Starters
Dwyane Wade: 3.9
LeBron James: 3.3
Bob McAdoo: ? (TOs weren't measure prior to 78'-79' season, but McAdoo averaged 4.1 turnovers per game during 77' - 80'. Considering that his prime was in 74'-78', I assume it was higher.)
Orlando Magic Starters
Tracy McGrady: 2.6
Dirk Nowitzki: 2.0
Again, among Miami's starters who have a usage rate of over 25%, they also have a considerably higher number of turnovers per game.
While McGrady and Nowitzki have high usage rate %, their turnovers are considerably lower. That's because they can come off screens and perform as catch-and-shooters. While McGrady and Dirk both dominate the ball, there is a subtle difference and it's not to the same extend as to Wade and James whose TO numbers indicate that their biggest strength is shown when they possess the basketball in their hands.
With Magic being their primary ball-handler, I think having players like McAdoo, Wade, and LeBron makes the team appear "too crowded". It is often the case that having too many high usage players... - there aren't enough balls to go around the roster. More things can be said about Miami's bench, where almost every player takes at least 14 FGA and has a usage rate of 20.
I think pen's team looks best on paper in this competition with a wide variety of talented players. However, I honestly believe my team is more well-rounded, and gives a more balanced production on the court. My team offers more defense, more range that leads to better spacing, more defined-roles, and our center, Russell, is the glue guy that holds the entity of this team.
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penbeast0
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Dang, it's so much easier debating people who aren't smarter than you are . . . .
(1) You are right, in those two years out of each players 5 year peak, TMAC was better. Those are LeBron's rookie and second year; his defense improved tremendously and, as I said, when Dantley is in the game, LeBron will be on him and Wade on Tmac as much as possible to deny the outside shooting threat but the Head to Head matchups backfired on me.
(2) Dennis Johnson wasn't quicker than Flash. Sorry, great player, similar physical specimen, might even be the stronger, but DWade is the quicker and more explosive.
(3) It is hard to say your bench is the better defensive group when you are planning to use mainly two guys off it and one is Adrian Dantley who was a very poor defender. Roundfield was very good, Nance probably has the edge for his shotblocking combining with his excellent man defense but still Nance was good. However, our bench isn't just Nance, we go 8 deep (rather than 7) and Nance, Sikma, and Derek Harper (technically a starter because he was a good catch and shoot guy who could play off our other great starters, but Wade counts as the main player there who will get 30+ minutes) ALL THREE were All-NBA defensive team players. Our bench has a clear defensive advantage.
PS. Just going into the rotation issues again. Derek Harper starts for us like Michael Finley does for the current Spurs. Wade plays most of the minutes but Harper is also the main substitute for Magic Johnson and we sometimes go with three guards and Magic defending the 3 (at 6'8 250) so Harper gets 25+ minutes a game. Up front we start Mutombo but depending on matchups, we mix in Nance and Sikma . . . Nance for quickness, Sikma for outside shooting, Mutombo for his massive frame against low post threats . . . all three are outstanding defenders, but against Dirk, we use Nance as much as possible to make sure Dirk is facing a very quick defender (Dirk loves facing slower big men, hates long quick athletic defenders) while switching McAdoo over onto Russell who isn't a great scoring threat. This also has the benefit of forcing Russell away from defending the low post which is where he spent his career (there were few, if any, teams with true outside shooting threats at center in his day . . . there have been none in NBA history better than McAdoo at stretching the floor until Dirk who is also a great outside shooting big . . . but Nance is comfortable out there, Russell isn't).
(1) You are right, in those two years out of each players 5 year peak, TMAC was better. Those are LeBron's rookie and second year; his defense improved tremendously and, as I said, when Dantley is in the game, LeBron will be on him and Wade on Tmac as much as possible to deny the outside shooting threat but the Head to Head matchups backfired on me.
(2) Dennis Johnson wasn't quicker than Flash. Sorry, great player, similar physical specimen, might even be the stronger, but DWade is the quicker and more explosive.
(3) It is hard to say your bench is the better defensive group when you are planning to use mainly two guys off it and one is Adrian Dantley who was a very poor defender. Roundfield was very good, Nance probably has the edge for his shotblocking combining with his excellent man defense but still Nance was good. However, our bench isn't just Nance, we go 8 deep (rather than 7) and Nance, Sikma, and Derek Harper (technically a starter because he was a good catch and shoot guy who could play off our other great starters, but Wade counts as the main player there who will get 30+ minutes) ALL THREE were All-NBA defensive team players. Our bench has a clear defensive advantage.
PS. Just going into the rotation issues again. Derek Harper starts for us like Michael Finley does for the current Spurs. Wade plays most of the minutes but Harper is also the main substitute for Magic Johnson and we sometimes go with three guards and Magic defending the 3 (at 6'8 250) so Harper gets 25+ minutes a game. Up front we start Mutombo but depending on matchups, we mix in Nance and Sikma . . . Nance for quickness, Sikma for outside shooting, Mutombo for his massive frame against low post threats . . . all three are outstanding defenders, but against Dirk, we use Nance as much as possible to make sure Dirk is facing a very quick defender (Dirk loves facing slower big men, hates long quick athletic defenders) while switching McAdoo over onto Russell who isn't a great scoring threat. This also has the benefit of forcing Russell away from defending the low post which is where he spent his career (there were few, if any, teams with true outside shooting threats at center in his day . . . there have been none in NBA history better than McAdoo at stretching the floor until Dirk who is also a great outside shooting big . . . but Nance is comfortable out there, Russell isn't).
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Myth_Breaker
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Second round of the Western Conference playoffs: Golden State Warriors vs. Denver Nuggets.
GENERAL REMARKS
I really like your team, TMACFORMVP. You
GENERAL REMARKS
I really like your team, TMACFORMVP. You
http://wiltfan.tripod.com
Read: Edward Lucas "The New Cold War: Putin's Russia and the Threat to the West".
"So what, son, did your Poles help you?" YES, WE DID!
***** *** Kukiza i Konfederację!
Read: Edward Lucas "The New Cold War: Putin's Russia and the Threat to the West".
"So what, son, did your Poles help you?" YES, WE DID!
***** *** Kukiza i Konfederację!
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Myth_Breaker
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1. TMAC, I may assure you that I didn
http://wiltfan.tripod.com
Read: Edward Lucas "The New Cold War: Putin's Russia and the Threat to the West".
"So what, son, did your Poles help you?" YES, WE DID!
***** *** Kukiza i Konfederację!
Read: Edward Lucas "The New Cold War: Putin's Russia and the Threat to the West".
"So what, son, did your Poles help you?" YES, WE DID!
***** *** Kukiza i Konfederację!
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TMU
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penbeast0 wrote:Dang, it's so much easier debating people who aren't smarter than you are . . . .
I am going against one of the best here. I am trying to bring my A game.
penbeast0 wrote:(2) Dennis Johnson wasn't quicker than Flash. Sorry, great player, similar physical specimen, might even be the stronger, but DWade is the quicker and more explosive.
Sorry, I meant to say "faster", as in his sheer speed when he doesn't have the ball. D-Wade is definitely quicker and more explosive when he has the ball compared to when DJ has the ball. I'd also say that D-Wade is stronger than DJ.
penbeast0 wrote:(3) It is hard to say your bench is the better defensive group when you are planning to use mainly two guys off it and one is Adrian Dantley who was a very poor defender.
Pen, my rotation will be a strictly a 9-man rotation. Rollins, Roundfield, and Dantley will be playing in all games. And if Battier gets minutes, I won't use Mookie; and vice versa.
penbeat0 wrote:However, our bench isn't just Nance, we go 8 deep (rather than 7) and Nance, Sikma, and Derek Harper
Yep. I am aware of that.
penbeast0 wrote:switching McAdoo over onto Russell who isn't a great scoring threat. This also has the benefit of forcing Russell away from defending the low post which is where he spent his career (...but Nance is comfortable out there, Russell isn't).
So Russell can't play defense outside the paint? But Wilt can?
Russell chased outside shooters more frequently than Wilt did. Plus, no one dared to drive against Russell, who's a terrific shotblocker against players who drove to the hoop.
With that said, I don't want Russell chasing his opponents outside the paint. That leaves our interior empty especially for grabbing rebounds. When you are on offense, you don't get to choose your opposing defender. However, when you are on defense, you get to decide who you can guard.
You can have McAdoo on Russell on the defensive end, but when my team plays defense, I will have Russell against your biggest man available on court; i.e.: Mutombo and Nance over McAdoo.
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penbeast0
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No problem, Nance is even more active than McAdoo away from the basket (though not the long range shooter) and will keep Russell running like the small forward he often is . . . thus still pulling Russ out of his comfort zone for stopping penetration and rebounding; without Russ underneath for rebounding, our team has the advantage on the boards at the other positions. And . . . this leaves McAdoo, arguably our primary shooter (unless Dantley is on LeBron) guarded by Dirk . . . nice.
Oh, and I'm the one saying Wilt DIDN'T chase shooters away from the basket. Russell probably would be more likely to; his pride wouldn't let him allow open shots and that's another advantage of having a squad on the floor where everyone was a first or second option scorer; with out great midrange shooters (Mac, Magic, Wade, Harper, Lance, Sikma, even LeBron will kill you from there if you leave him alone instead of facing his normal doubleteams) there is no one safe to leave open who won't be able to go for 20+ on 50%+ shooting (Nance shot over 55%, pleeeeeease leave him free, lol).
Oh, and I'm the one saying Wilt DIDN'T chase shooters away from the basket. Russell probably would be more likely to; his pride wouldn't let him allow open shots and that's another advantage of having a squad on the floor where everyone was a first or second option scorer; with out great midrange shooters (Mac, Magic, Wade, Harper, Lance, Sikma, even LeBron will kill you from there if you leave him alone instead of facing his normal doubleteams) there is no one safe to leave open who won't be able to go for 20+ on 50%+ shooting (Nance shot over 55%, pleeeeeease leave him free, lol).
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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randomhero423
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Cleveland: Tiny Archibald, Michael Jordan, Dominique Wilkens, Kevin McHale, Yao Ming Bench: Allen Iverson, Jermaine Oneal, Bruce Bowen, George Mikan, Bob Love, Jamal Mashburn, Willis
New York (my team): John Stockton, Earl Monroe, Chet Walker, Marcus Camby, Moses Malone
Dave DeBusschere, Jerry Sloan, Pau Gasol, Baron Davis, Penny Hardaway
PJ Brown, Gilbert Arenas
John Stockton vs. Tiny Archibald:
I feel this match up will be won by Stockton. Stockton was an amazing passer, shot very efficiently and played very good defense. While Tiny on the other hand needed a lot of shots to be effective, did not distribute the ball as much as you
New York (my team): John Stockton, Earl Monroe, Chet Walker, Marcus Camby, Moses Malone
Dave DeBusschere, Jerry Sloan, Pau Gasol, Baron Davis, Penny Hardaway
PJ Brown, Gilbert Arenas
John Stockton vs. Tiny Archibald:
I feel this match up will be won by Stockton. Stockton was an amazing passer, shot very efficiently and played very good defense. While Tiny on the other hand needed a lot of shots to be effective, did not distribute the ball as much as you
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TMU
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penbeast0 wrote:No problem, Nance is even more active than McAdoo away from the basket (though not the long range shooter) and will keep Russell running like the small forward he often is . . . thus still pulling Russ out of his comfort zone for stopping penetration and rebounding. And . . . this leaves McAdoo, arguably our primary shooter (unless Dantley is on LeBron) guarded by Dirk . . . nice.
I don't think comfort zone is the right word here. He can still chase shooters out to the perimeter if he has to, which will remove him from his normal spot. But I don't see that as being a liability against him. Maybe against the team, but definitely not on Russell himself.
penbeast0 wrote:Oh, and I'm the one saying Wilt DIDN'T chase shooters away from the basket. Russell probably would be more likely to; his pride wouldn't let him allow open shots and that's another advantage of having a squad on the floor where everyone was a first or second option scorer; there is no one safe to leave open who won't be able to go for 20+ on 50%+ shooting (Nance shot over 55%, pleeeeeease leave him free, lol).
I am not implying that none of your big men will get 20+ points and 50%+ shooting. I will admit, even with Russell I can't shut down your entire team. Moreover, I don't think any team in this league is capable of shutting down your entire offense. Like I said, you have a very good offensive team. I have to settle a dilemma between whether I wanna allow easy buckets in the paint while guarding your midrange / outside shots OR whether I shouldn't allow easy buckets around the hoop and make your players a jumpshooting team. Personally, I will take the latter. Imo, as a whole, your team is much stronger in slashing rather than shooting; and my defense will emphasize more on your bigger strength. Imo your team will have to win this series with shooting.
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TMACFORMVP
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Ehh, I know it won't change much at this point, but it's all in the fun arguing and debating.
1.) I was never the one that brought up the GP comparison. You said he absolutely dominated KJ in the 93 playoffs and was just flatly wrong and inaccurate. And dare I say prime KJ (which was not his 92-93 season) would fare MUCH better against the elite PG's in the league and most certainly Chauncey.
And once again your bringing up completely different styles of players. Nash is a passer off the pick and roll and thrives off of making decisions in the open floor and transition. KJ is more a drive and kick player and much more prolific getting to the FT line in a halfcourt set. Their offensive games were very different. The only real similarity they had were that they were great passers and played for the Suns.
2.) First off this isn't the finals, so I can just come out and say KJ had better second round stats, see how that sounds? It's completely different players with completely different teams.
Second, your making it out to be like he played very poorly-which he did in Games 1 and 2, but he was very good the rest of the series. Can't blame him for losing in the finals because they were clearly playing against a better team with the best player to have ever played the game.
Game 3: 25 points, 7 rebounds, 9 assists on 11-24.
Game 4: 19 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists on 7-16.
Game 5: 25 points, 1 rebound, 8 assists on 10-20.
Game 6: 19 points, 5 rebounds, 10 assists on 6-14
3.) I never said in either of my posts that Ray Allen was better than Reggie, in fact I gave Reggie the edge. It's just not to the extent that you are trying to make it out to be especially when the both of them are the two greatest players to have ever played to do what they do, in long range shooting.
Once again bringing up Ray Allen's stats from this years playoffs is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to this discussion. We are comparing primes and 5 year peaks where each time Ray had made the playoffs, he considerably stepped up his game. AGAIN not to the extent of Reggie, but saying he absolutely doesn't step up is ignorant when the evidence is right there.
I bring up Ray is a better all around player, because HE IS a better all around player. It's not a hit at anybody but just a fact.
4.) Your trying to make more excuses after YOU brought up the subject. You clearly said in your rebuttal that Pippen (and no mention of Jordan) struggled against Drexler and when I brought up the stats that he clearly DIDN'T, now your trying to bring up Jordan?
Nonetheless, Kobe was still one of the more offensively explosive players (2000 was actually the 4th HIGHEST scoring season of his career at 28.5) in the league and Pippen was AFTER his prime. It was painfully obvious Kobe at that time was a better player than Pippen at the time. I could take the tail end of Barry and Miller's career and say they struggled scoring against these players, but I'm not since this is a game considering 5 year peaks of players. Bringing up what Pippen did in 2000, like the the rest of the argument is IRRELEVANT.
5.) David Robinson who was considered one of the fastest and quickest centers to have ever played, was just left in the dust by Hakeem. Hakeem and Wilt were probably on another level in terms of speed, quickness and athleticism. If anything it was a wash, but in my personal opinion Hakeem was the quicker player.
6.) I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one. I feel Wilt's range was more to around 10-12 feet out rather than all the way out to 15-16 like Hakeem's was capable of. Hakeem was a MUCH better FT shooter than Wilt, who happens to be one of all the time worst.
7.) Maybe not as bad as Shaq, but I doubt he was any good. Willis Reed who was more a mid-range oriented big man absolutely crushed Wilt on the defensive end when he was FULLY healthy for the first couple games of the series.
Game 1: 37 points
Game 2: 29 points
Game 3: 38 points
Game 4: 23 points
Wilt in those same 4 games?
Game 1: 17 points (1-10 FT shooting!!)
Game 2: 19 points
Game 3: 21 points
Game 4: 18 points
Reed absolutely abused Wilt drawing him out more to the perimeter. Wilt absolutely didn't not come out to contest shots outside the paint. Reed was also MUCH smaller than Wilt.
8.) Nonetheless, Wilt was a horrible FT shooter and a liability when he's on the floor in close games, unlike Hakeem that was a very good FT shooter for a big man.
9.)
Van Lier vs. Robertson (7 to 6 All-D team advantage for Van Lier)
Hamilton vs. Bell (2-0 All-D team advantage for Bell)
Jones vs. Johnson (3-0 All D team advantage for Jones)
Brand vs. Amare (0-0 All D team advantage)
Smith vs. Eaton (5-0 All D team advantage)
Now if you really compare it, how much of a difference was there really between Eaton and Smith. Eaton was a better defender (I'm not disputing that but rather trying to argue they're much closer than when first looked). at.) Smith was a much better rebounder while being a comparable shot blocker. Smith's career high in blocks, 4.9 to Eaton's 5.6. Again Eaton has the advantage, but it's not like the Brand v. Amare matchup where Amare is considered one of the worst front-court defenders in the entire league and Brand above average. He's a much better rebounder, shot-blocker and just overall man defender.
Offensively I have a better play-maker to my second team while having the offensive edge at the 2 and 5. Amare's better offensively than Brand, but the gap isn't that large as Brand is a consistent 20 point per game option as well. Jones and Johnson were comparable offensively considering the roles on either team while Robertson had the SCORING edge over Van Lier due to efficiency.
Overall it's COMPARABLE defensively while I have the slight edge offensively.
10.) I refuted almost all your main points in the last post...
Your team is great too man, could go either way, but I feel it should go my way hehe.
1.) I was never the one that brought up the GP comparison. You said he absolutely dominated KJ in the 93 playoffs and was just flatly wrong and inaccurate. And dare I say prime KJ (which was not his 92-93 season) would fare MUCH better against the elite PG's in the league and most certainly Chauncey.
And once again your bringing up completely different styles of players. Nash is a passer off the pick and roll and thrives off of making decisions in the open floor and transition. KJ is more a drive and kick player and much more prolific getting to the FT line in a halfcourt set. Their offensive games were very different. The only real similarity they had were that they were great passers and played for the Suns.
2.) First off this isn't the finals, so I can just come out and say KJ had better second round stats, see how that sounds? It's completely different players with completely different teams.
Second, your making it out to be like he played very poorly-which he did in Games 1 and 2, but he was very good the rest of the series. Can't blame him for losing in the finals because they were clearly playing against a better team with the best player to have ever played the game.
Game 3: 25 points, 7 rebounds, 9 assists on 11-24.
Game 4: 19 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists on 7-16.
Game 5: 25 points, 1 rebound, 8 assists on 10-20.
Game 6: 19 points, 5 rebounds, 10 assists on 6-14
3.) I never said in either of my posts that Ray Allen was better than Reggie, in fact I gave Reggie the edge. It's just not to the extent that you are trying to make it out to be especially when the both of them are the two greatest players to have ever played to do what they do, in long range shooting.
Once again bringing up Ray Allen's stats from this years playoffs is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to this discussion. We are comparing primes and 5 year peaks where each time Ray had made the playoffs, he considerably stepped up his game. AGAIN not to the extent of Reggie, but saying he absolutely doesn't step up is ignorant when the evidence is right there.
I bring up Ray is a better all around player, because HE IS a better all around player. It's not a hit at anybody but just a fact.
4.) Your trying to make more excuses after YOU brought up the subject. You clearly said in your rebuttal that Pippen (and no mention of Jordan) struggled against Drexler and when I brought up the stats that he clearly DIDN'T, now your trying to bring up Jordan?
Nonetheless, Kobe was still one of the more offensively explosive players (2000 was actually the 4th HIGHEST scoring season of his career at 28.5) in the league and Pippen was AFTER his prime. It was painfully obvious Kobe at that time was a better player than Pippen at the time. I could take the tail end of Barry and Miller's career and say they struggled scoring against these players, but I'm not since this is a game considering 5 year peaks of players. Bringing up what Pippen did in 2000, like the the rest of the argument is IRRELEVANT.
5.) David Robinson who was considered one of the fastest and quickest centers to have ever played, was just left in the dust by Hakeem. Hakeem and Wilt were probably on another level in terms of speed, quickness and athleticism. If anything it was a wash, but in my personal opinion Hakeem was the quicker player.
6.) I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one. I feel Wilt's range was more to around 10-12 feet out rather than all the way out to 15-16 like Hakeem's was capable of. Hakeem was a MUCH better FT shooter than Wilt, who happens to be one of all the time worst.
7.) Maybe not as bad as Shaq, but I doubt he was any good. Willis Reed who was more a mid-range oriented big man absolutely crushed Wilt on the defensive end when he was FULLY healthy for the first couple games of the series.
Game 1: 37 points
Game 2: 29 points
Game 3: 38 points
Game 4: 23 points
Wilt in those same 4 games?
Game 1: 17 points (1-10 FT shooting!!)
Game 2: 19 points
Game 3: 21 points
Game 4: 18 points
Reed absolutely abused Wilt drawing him out more to the perimeter. Wilt absolutely didn't not come out to contest shots outside the paint. Reed was also MUCH smaller than Wilt.
8.) Nonetheless, Wilt was a horrible FT shooter and a liability when he's on the floor in close games, unlike Hakeem that was a very good FT shooter for a big man.
9.)
Van Lier vs. Robertson (7 to 6 All-D team advantage for Van Lier)
Hamilton vs. Bell (2-0 All-D team advantage for Bell)
Jones vs. Johnson (3-0 All D team advantage for Jones)
Brand vs. Amare (0-0 All D team advantage)
Smith vs. Eaton (5-0 All D team advantage)
Now if you really compare it, how much of a difference was there really between Eaton and Smith. Eaton was a better defender (I'm not disputing that but rather trying to argue they're much closer than when first looked). at.) Smith was a much better rebounder while being a comparable shot blocker. Smith's career high in blocks, 4.9 to Eaton's 5.6. Again Eaton has the advantage, but it's not like the Brand v. Amare matchup where Amare is considered one of the worst front-court defenders in the entire league and Brand above average. He's a much better rebounder, shot-blocker and just overall man defender.
Offensively I have a better play-maker to my second team while having the offensive edge at the 2 and 5. Amare's better offensively than Brand, but the gap isn't that large as Brand is a consistent 20 point per game option as well. Jones and Johnson were comparable offensively considering the roles on either team while Robertson had the SCORING edge over Van Lier due to efficiency.
Overall it's COMPARABLE defensively while I have the slight edge offensively.
10.) I refuted almost all your main points in the last post...
Your team is great too man, could go either way, but I feel it should go my way hehe.
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JordansBulls
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TrueLAfan wrote:CLIPPERS v. MAVERICKS
Mavs Rotation:
Willis Reed/Bill Laimbeer
Karl Malone
Grant Hill/Billy Cunningham
Dale Ellis/Bill Sharman
Oscar Robertson
Spot minutes: Sam Jones, George McGinnis
Clippers Rotation:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Brad Daugherty
Buck Williams/Horace Grant
Bobby Jones/Tayshaun Prince
Joe Dumars/Michael Cooper
Gary Payton/Michael Cooper
This matchup will be a good one, however in the end I see the Clippers winning this one. First the Clippers have the best player IMO pretty easily with Kareem and they have a juggernaut defensive team. While the Mavs are good themselves and Malone will get his on Buck Williams and Grant, I feel the advantage the Clippers have at Guard and Center will be the difference.
Vote: Clippers
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
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JordansBulls
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T-Mac United wrote:First of all, penbeast0, I wish you good luck. Hopefully, the winner of this Florida Bowl can bring home the O'Brien Trophy!!!
Miami vs. Orlando
Heat Roster
PG: Johnson/Harper
SG: Wade/Harper
SF: James
PF: McAdoo/Nance
C: Mutombo/Sikma
Magic Roster
PG: Kidd/DJ
SG: DJ/Dantley
SF: McGrady
PF: Nowitzki/Roundfield
C: Russell/Rollins
I like both teams, but I have to go with the Heat. Seriously the Magic are good, but they don't have the scoring needed to pull this off. Sure they have Russell, DJ and Kidd, but where is most of the offense going to come from? T-mac and Dirk would have to go nuts in order to keep up with Magic, Wade and Lebron scoring wise. However one must not test the will of Bill Russell, but in this case he doesn't have the better team and would not prevail.
Pick: Heat
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
Re: 2nd Round All-Time League Head to Head Matchups
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JordansBulls
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Re: 2nd Round All-Time League Head to Head Matchups
Denver Nuggets(Myth_Breaker) (picture)
PG-Chauncey Billups/Alvin Robrtson
SG-Reggie Miller/Don Buse/Raja Bell
SF-Rick Barry/Marques Johnson
PF-Dennis Rodman/Amare Stoudemire/Vin Baker
C-Wilt Chamberlain/Mark Eaton
Golden State Warriors (me) (picture)
PG-Kevin Johnson/Norm Van Lier
SG-Ray Allen/Rip Hamilton
SF-Scottie Pippen/Eddie Jones/Toni Kukoc
PF-Shawn Kemp/Elton Brand/Paul Silas
C-Hakeem Olajuwon/Elmore Smith
This is really tough to decide. But I think I know who would win. My first hunch was to take the Warriors because of the defense and the balance, but on second thought I am thinking against them. The Nuggets have 3 former Finals MVP winners which mean they have 3 guys who can step up on the biggest stage. That to me is huge in this situation. Also they have the best player on the court in Wilt.
While I think Hakeem will perform well and even better than Wilt in the given circumstance, A lot will hinge on the production that he gets from the other guys. And frankly speaking he has a bunch of guys who you don't know what type of offensive production you will get from one game till the next.
I'm not sure if Pippen would lock down Rick Barry with no other real defensive help at the guard or forward spot that can step up.
With that in mind, I will take the Nuggets in 7
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
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Teddy KGB
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Myth_Breaker
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TMACFORMVP wrote:3.) I never said in either of my posts that Ray Allen was better than Reggie, in fact I gave Reggie the edge.
Don't have time for the next detailed answer now, but this one sticks out. You admit I have advantage at SG: add to this my advantage at SF and C + having the best player in the series and we may all move on.
http://wiltfan.tripod.com
Read: Edward Lucas "The New Cold War: Putin's Russia and the Threat to the West".
"So what, son, did your Poles help you?" YES, WE DID!
***** *** Kukiza i Konfederację!
Read: Edward Lucas "The New Cold War: Putin's Russia and the Threat to the West".
"So what, son, did your Poles help you?" YES, WE DID!
***** *** Kukiza i Konfederację!