Hakeem vs Dikembe

[circushots]

Who is the better interior defensive player?

And who in your opinion was stronger? Both guys were very lean but evidently extremely strong for their size.

[ronnymac2]

Hakeem was stronger. Shaq and i think Moses Malone said he was the strongest guy they ever faced. Dream was heavier (or maybe the same weight) and shorter than Deke, so just from that standpoint, you can reason that Hakeem was stronger. They both were in great shape, regardless.

Better interior defensive player? I dunno. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have Deke out there as my defensive center over Marcus Camby, RIGHT NOW. When Deke can play like 20 minutes at age 40. In his prime, he was sick. I say he is as good or better as a rebounder than dream. Post defenders, I'll give to Dream by a little bit. He did a good job on Ewing in those 94 finals. Shotblocking, they are pretty equal. Now Hakeem is the better defensive player overall because of what he could do out on the floor (perimeter) and got all the steals and everything. But as defensive anchors inside, I'd say they are equals.

[HarlemHeat37]

shouldn't it also be mentioned that Hakeem was the #1 option on his team, so he had to put A LOT more energy into his game than Mutombo did?..Dream was a 1st option on a few successful teams that had weak supporting casts, and he was still able to dominate defensively..

[tsherkin]

Better interior defensive player? I dunno. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have Deke out there as my defensive center over Marcus Camby, RIGHT NOW.

Well, to be fair, Camby is a TERRIBLE defender who just posts numbers because he never leaves the rim. It makes him a prolific defensive rebounder and leaves him in position to contest (and therefore block) a lot of shots but he doesn't rotate well, gets owned on pick-and-rolls and is in general a pretty weak man-on defender as well.

He did a good job on Ewing in those 94 finals.

If by "pretty good job," you mean "made Ewing looking like a lisping man-lover," then yeah, that's what happened. Ewing was completely ineffective in the '94 Finals, shooting 36.25% from the floor and drawing only 3 FTA/g on 22.9 FGA/g. He was AWFUL against Olajuwon, Dream made Ewing look like a CBA baller.

Mutombo was a good defender, a VERY good weakside defender in particular and a good man-on defender as well but Olajuwon was noticeably superior even while acting as a high-volume scoring weapon.

Shotblocking, they are pretty equal.

No, they aren't. Statistically speaking, they are similar, of course, and they had similar peaks, but Olajuwon did what he did while acting as a primary scoring option, expending energy Mutombo never had to (especially since he was basically the most triple-teamed player in NBA history) and that makes his efforts as a shot-blocker considerably more impressive.

You figure Olajuwon (who was FAR more athletic) as a defensive specialist would only block 0.3 more shots per game on his career than Mutombo? I disagree vehemently.

[Rerisen]

Without any scientific study, I would be tempted to take Hakeem against another dominant center, but Deke against a team without one, or who had another dominant scorer at a different position.

I recall Mutombo always interfered with the Bulls overall offense more than Hakeem, despite being on usually worse teams.

[tsherkin]

Without any scientific study, I would be tempted to take Hakeem against another dominant center, but Deke against a team without one, or who had another dominant scorer at a different position.

I recall Mutombo always interfered with the Bulls overall offense more than Hakeem, despite being on usually worse teams.

Dunno about that; Houston tended to win more against the Bulls than did the Nuggets.

[ronnymac2]

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No, they aren't. Statistically speaking, they are similar, of course, and they had similar peaks, but Olajuwon did what he did while acting as a primary scoring option, expending energy Mutombo never had to (especially since he was basically the most triple-teamed player in NBA history) and that makes his efforts as a shot-blocker considerably more impressive.

You figure Olajuwon (who was FAR more athletic) as a defensive specialist would only block 0.3 more shots per game on his career than Mutombo? I disagree vehemently.

I disagree with the logic that because Dream had to expend energy on offense, that makes what he did on d more impressive. To me, it doesn't. It is, however, what makes Dream a far superior overall player versus Deke. But saying Dream should be credited as the better defensive player based on that he was expected to expend more energy as a number 1 option on offense is wrong to me. And it's not like Deke was just some lazy, useless offensive player. He was a good offensive center in his prime. Nothing great or special. But good. Just because he wasn't as great as hakeem at that end of the floor or wasn't a number 1 option shouldn't take away from what he did on d (or rather, shoudn't vault dream ahead of him). Mutombo just wasn't as good on offense as Hakeem (an understatement, i know lol). As interior defensive anchors, they are equals to me. As defensive players overall, like i previously said, Dream was a bit better due to his perimeter abilities and steals.

[Rerisen]

Dunno about that; Houston tended to win more against the Bulls than did the Nuggets.

True, but its the Nuggets! Houston was additionally tough because Texas triangle was always a pain for the Bulls, and probably everyone else too.

Who can forget Deke's 94 Nuggets upsetting Seattle though, Mt. Mutombo had 31 blocks in 5 games!

[Hawaii]

As much as I like Mutombo, Hakeem's got the edge overall.

[LakerLegend]

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It makes him a prolific defensive rebounder and leaves him in position to contest (and therefore block) a lot of shots but he doesn't rotate well

Those actually used to be criticisms of Dikembe as well.

[Hunter]

Deke was the better interior defender.

Hakeem was almost as good though, and able to switch out the perimeter and essentially defend all 5 positions on the floor so in a vacuum I'd say he's the better defender over all.

[tsherkin]

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True, but its the Nuggets! Houston was additionally tough because Texas triangle was always a pain for the Bulls, and probably everyone else too.

Very true.

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Those actually used to be criticisms of Dikembe as well.

Hai, but with Camby, they're valid criticisms. Mutombo has spent the last 17 years or so showing that he actually plays good man defense (Camby does not) and a vastly superior offensive rebounder.

Deke did tend to stick around the rim but only insofar as a shot-blocker and rebounder should; he rotated out on the pick-and-roll and he trapped in the corners and he covered defensive holes when his teammates rotated or got stuck out of position...

He did all of those things way more effectively than does Camby.

And it's not like Deke was just some lazy, useless offensive player. He was a good offensive center in his prime.

Umm, no? Mutombo did everything he did on offense by standing around the rim and getting a quick pass for a dunk or getting a put-back... or uncorking that awful wind-up thing he called a hook shot. He was a low-volume scorer who scored efficiently because he was always under single coverage and didn't take a lot of shots.

Olajuwon, by contrast, played with no help on his team for a long stretch and was consistently seeing illegal zones and two or three defenders.

Mutombo took 10+ FGA/g in only the FIRST season of his career and then never again.

Olajuwon took 15+ shots in each of the first 15 seasons of his career and actually MADE 10+ shots a game in four consecutive years during his peak when he was taking 19.5 - 20.8 shots a game (and then just under 10 FGM and 18.3 FGA the year after).

They were NOTHING alike, Olajuwon was doing WAY more offensively.

There is a DRAMATIC difference in the energy required to achieve these things when one is also a prolific scorer versus when one is a slightly better version of Ben Wallace on offense... and that mainly because he could hit free throws.

More importantly, since Olajuwon was a statistically comparable defensive rebounder and shot-blocker even despite having to do all that on the other end, one would think that it should be fairly obvious that Dream was more impressive.

But if that's not sufficient, then noting Olajuwon's pick-and-roll defense should be; he was much more athletic and notably more capable at handling smaller players. Mutombo is 7'2 and even in his hey-day was not a spritely man. Olajuwon, by contrast, could occasionally be found switched out in isolation against shooting guards on the wing and covering them effectively in short bursts, which was never true of Mutombo.

More importantly, Dream could cover distance a lot more quickly than Mutombo and that made him more readily responsive to offensive threats... plus, because he was a better leaper, he could get to things Mutombo couldn't... like that Kevin Johnson layup everyone is always on about when they talk about Olajuwon.

[ronnymac2]

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True, but its the Nuggets! Houston was additionally tough because Texas triangle was always a pain for the Bulls, and probably everyone else too.

Very true.

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Those actually used to be criticisms of Dikembe as well.

Hai, but with Camby, they're valid criticisms. Mutombo has spent the last 17 years or so showing that he actually plays good man defense (Camby does not) and a vastly superior offensive rebounder.

Deke did tend to stick around the rim but only insofar as a shot-blocker and rebounder should; he rotated out on the pick-and-roll and he trapped in the corners and he covered defensive holes when his teammates rotated or got stuck out of position...

He did all of those things way more effectively than does Camby.

And it's not like Deke was just some lazy, useless offensive player. He was a good offensive center in his prime.

Umm, no? Mutombo did everything he did on offense by standing around the rim and getting a quick pass for a dunk or getting a put-back... or uncorking that awful wind-up thing he called a hook shot. He was a low-volume scorer who scored efficiently because he was always under single coverage and didn't take a lot of shots.

Olajuwon, by contrast, played with no help on his team for a long stretch and was consistently seeing illegal zones and two or three defenders.

Mutombo took 10+ FGA/g in only the FIRST season of his career and then never again.

Olajuwon took 15+ shots in each of the first 15 seasons of his career and actually MADE 10+ shots a game in four consecutive years during his peak when he was taking 19.5 - 20.8 shots a game (and then just under 10 FGM and 18.3 FGA the year after).

They were NOTHING alike, Olajuwon was doing WAY more offensively.

There is a DRAMATIC difference in the energy required to achieve these things when one is also a prolific scorer versus when one is a slightly better version of Ben Wallace on offense... and that mainly because he could hit free throws.

More importantly, since Olajuwon was a statistically comparable defensive rebounder and shot-blocker even despite having to do all that on the other end, one would think that it should be fairly obvious that Dream was more impressive.

But if that's not sufficient, then noting Olajuwon's pick-and-roll defense should be; he was much more athletic and notably more capable at handling smaller players. Mutombo is 7'2 and even in his hey-day was not a spritely man. Olajuwon, by contrast, could occasionally be found switched out in isolation against shooting guards on the wing and covering them effectively in short bursts, which was never true of Mutombo.

More importantly, Dream could cover distance a lot more quickly than Mutombo and that made him more readily responsive to offensive threats... plus, because he was a better leaper, he could get to things Mutombo couldn't... like that Kevin Johnson layup everyone is always on about when they talk about Olajuwon.

To the first bolded paragraph, yes it is impressive. Like I said, that's part of what made Dream the much, much better player. That doesn't actually make him the better interior defensive player.

When you put Hakeem Olajuwon on your team, you get a dominant anchor for your defense. You also get one of the top offensive centers in the history of the game. He's a number 1 option on a lot of teams. He'd be the number 1 option on any team Deke was ever on (If you were to replace Deke with Hakeem). His overall potential for offensive production is far greater than Mutombo's. When they are at their best, in their peak, trying their hardest, Hakeem is much much much better on offense; not many people in history are better. Telling him to not expend energy on offense and only be a defensive force would severly hurt the team he's on, unless he's on a team of all-stars with Jordan, Bird, and Barkley.

I still don't buy the "Well, he needed to expend more energy on offense, so he's the better defensive anchor." That's like saying, "Well Shaq and Tim Duncan are better rebounders than Dennis Rodman because all Rodman had to do was rebound the ball, whereas as Shaq and Duncan need to carry teams and anchor their team's defense." No. Rodman was a better rebounder then both of them. Now, citing Duncan and Shaq as great rebounders (and not THAT far off from Rodman), while talking about everything else Shaq and Duncan did, and well, they more than come out on top of Rodman. But Rodman still rebounded better.

To the second bolded paragraph, I agree 100%. Dream was like an amped up version of KG on the pick-n-roll (the pick-n-roll is usually executed and guarded on the perimeter). He was better on the perimeter than Deke. He got more steals. He def could cover more ground. I don't dispute that. I can't. And I haven't, either. I said Hakeem was better in that regard. That's what seperates him from Deke as the better overall defensive player. But as a defensive anchor in the paint, having to protect the rim, rebound, block shots, and defend centers, they are imo equals.

[Harmless]

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I disagree with the logic that because Dream had to expend energy on offense, that makes what he did on d more impressive. To me, it doesn't. It is, however, what makes Dream a far superior overall player versus Deke. But saying Dream should be credited as the better defensive player based on that he was expected to expend more energy as a number 1 option on offense is wrong to me. And it's not like Deke was just some lazy, useless offensive player. He was a good offensive center in his prime. Nothing great or special. But good. Just because he wasn't as great as hakeem at that end of the floor or wasn't a number 1 option shouldn't take away from what he did on d (or rather, shoudn't vault dream ahead of him). Mutombo just wasn't as good on offense as Hakeem (an understatement, i know lol). As interior defensive anchors, they are equals to me. As defensive players overall, like i previously said, Dream was a bit better due to his perimeter abilities and steals.

What thserkin said was valid, IMHO. The only problem is how do we quantify it? It is obvious that if a player concentrates on just one aspect of the game, he'll do better at it. The unanswerable question is "by how much?".

[penbeast0]

I've never bought into the Hakeem was superstrong argument. I saw him overpowered a few times; whereas Mutombo was not only bigger but seemed to have a stronger base. You can see the results against a player like Shaq; TKB ran all the centers of the day and Deke was the only one of the great centers (Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning, etc.) who had a measurable impact slowing down the Diesel.

Does that make him the better interior defender . . . no. Both were terrific but Hakeem was much the quicker both his feet and his hands. Deke could hold out a big physical guy like Shaq more easily, Hakeem could overplay the big guys more and still recover position plus you couldn't beat Hakeem with quickness and he could play further out while still getting back. Hakeem was the better low post center against most players, the Shaq/Wilt/Kareem type guys where Deke's size and strength would give him the advantage are few and far between.

As for overall value, Deke was not a great offensive center. He's just good enough to force you to pay attention. Hakeem was . . . great.

[tsherkin]

To the first bolded paragraph, yes it is impressive. Like I said, that's part of what made Dream the much, much better player. That doesn't actually make him the better interior defensive player.

Yes, it does. When he's closing out faster, he's getting to the ball quicker and stopping it farther from the rim, lowering the percentage of conversion on whatever shot ends up getting taken if it actually gets taken. He also forces passes at differing angles and sometimes quickly enough to force a turnover on a bad pass.

When he's quicker to the baseline, he's trapping guys in the corner and forcing the ball out of the hands of the scorer.

When he's quicker down the court than Stone Feet Mutombo, he's denying transition bucket opportunities that teams have against Mutombo.

That's all superior defense.

I still don't buy the "Well, he needed to expend more energy on offense, so he's the better defensive anchor." That's like saying, "Well Shaq and Tim Duncan are better rebounders than Dennis Rodman because all Rodman had to do was rebound the ball, whereas as Shaq and Duncan need to carry teams and anchor their team's defense." No. Rodman was a better rebounder then both of them.

Whether he was a better rebounder than they were or not is debatable.

One, because Rodman routinely ignored perimeter defense to chase rebounds and two because he had bug-all else to do but rebound and play defense... and to pass sometimes, or hit an open basket. If you don't have to conserve energy for intensive action on the other end of the court, then it's easier to do better at what you're doing on the other end. Hence Ben Wallace or any specialist.

Rodman happened to be extremely athletic and had a great sense of anticipation, great positioning skills and outstanding effort but there's still a debate there.

But Rodman still rebounded better.

Ah, but actual production and skill/talent are separate concepts, qualitative versus quantitative.

But as a defensive anchor in the paint, having to protect the rim, rebound, block shots, and defend centers, they are imo equals.

[

But you're wrong on the basis of Olajuwon's athleticism, which radically altered the dynamic he presented to people trying to do ANYTHING inside of about 20 feet. He was more athletic than Mutombo and knew how to use it in a fashion that was exceedingly disruptive and made him much more valuable inside than Deke.

[ronnymac2]

ronnymac2 wrote:


To the first bolded paragraph, yes it is impressive. Like I said, that's part of what made Dream the much, much better player. That doesn't actually make him the better interior defensive player.


Yes, it does. When he's closing out faster, he's getting to the ball quicker and stopping it farther from the rim, lowering the percentage of conversion on whatever shot ends up getting taken if it actually gets taken. He also forces passes at differing angles and sometimes quickly enough to force a turnover on a bad pass.

When he's quicker to the baseline, he's trapping guys in the corner and forcing the ball out of the hands of the scorer.

When he's quicker down the court than Stone Feet Mutombo, he's denying transition bucket opportunities that teams have against Mutombo.

That's all superior defense.

Quote:

I still don't buy the "Well, he needed to expend more energy on offense, so he's the better defensive anchor." That's like saying, "Well Shaq and Tim Duncan are better rebounders than Dennis Rodman because all Rodman had to do was rebound the ball, whereas as Shaq and Duncan need to carry teams and anchor their team's defense." No. Rodman was a better rebounder then both of them.


Whether he was a better rebounder than they were or not is debatable.

One, because Rodman routinely ignored perimeter defense to chase rebounds and two because he had bug-all else to do but rebound and play defense... and to pass sometimes, or hit an open basket. If you don't have to conserve energy for intensive action on the other end of the court, then it's easier to do better at what you're doing on the other end. Hence Ben Wallace or any specialist.

Rodman happened to be extremely athletic and had a great sense of anticipation, great positioning skills and outstanding effort but there's still a debate there.

Quote:
But Rodman still rebounded better.


Ah, but actual production and skill/talent are separate concepts, qualitative versus quantitative.

Quote:
But as a defensive anchor in the paint, having to protect the rim, rebound, block shots, and defend centers, they are imo equals.
[

But you're wrong on the basis of Olajuwon's athleticism, which radically altered the dynamic he presented to people trying to do ANYTHING inside of about 20 feet. He was more athletic than Mutombo and knew how to use it in a fashion that was exceedingly disruptive and made him much more valuable inside than Deke.

Well, though I believe Mutombo's extra length and size could compensate for Dream's athletic advantage (especially because Deke was able to use that length to its best potential due to his high iq and understanding of positioning), you have a point about being able to recover more quickly into the paint. His ability to bother passing lanes IN THE PAINT also goes under the category of things Hakeem does better than Deke inside on d. When guards drive and are looking to dish to another player either under the rim, 10 feet away, or cutting, that recovering ability does indeed help. And the transition d you spoke of is also very true.

Again, I still don't buy the whole "he expends more energy on offense and therefore is better in the paint on d." But citing Hakeem's athletic ability in the paint, his recovering ability, and his transition d does kind of sway me more in Hakeem's favor. I disagree that that makes him "much more valuable inside." But it does give him an added dimension that Deke can't fully compensate for.

Also, congrats on the 20000th post. lol

[penbeast0]

I think Hakeem was a bigger help threat than Mutombo too, but not as much as you are claiming, Tserkin. Deke has good lateral movement defensively and while nowhere near as quick as Hakeem (few if any big men were), his extra height and reach change nearly as many shots as Hakeem's quickness (though without the steals in the passing lane element that made Hakeem and David Robinson so unique).

[tsherkin]

His ability to bother passing lanes IN THE PAINT also goes under the category of things Hakeem does better than Deke inside on d. When guards drive and are looking to dish to another player either under the rim, 10 feet away, or cutting, that recovering ability does indeed help.

Yep, that's another good point.

Again, I still don't buy the whole "he expends more energy on offense and therefore is better in the paint on d."

It's pretty obvious though. Spend more energy on one end, have less on the other end; that's just the way stamina works.

[quote[I disagree that that makes him "much more valuable inside." But it does give him an added dimension that Deke can't fully compensate for.[/quote]

Well, Deke was never anything like Olajuwon in terms of his ability to disrupt passing lanes and as I said, the quicker response time really changes the defensive dynamic he presents. And protecting against high sidescreens and midscreens is another interior defense method because it's stopping guards from getting into the paint for high percentage shots and Dream definitely did that far better than did or does Mutombo at any point in his career.

Also, congrats on the 20000th post. lol

Thanks, it's been 5 years in the making. Well, 4.5.

I think Hakeem was a bigger help threat than Mutombo too, but not as much as you are claiming, Tserkin. Deke has good lateral movement defensively and while nowhere near as quick as Hakeem (few if any big men were), his extra height and reach change nearly as many shots as Hakeem's quickness (though without the steals in the passing lane element that made Hakeem and David Robinson so unique).

Meh, I'm inclined to disagree but it's too subjective a point to really argue at this stage because I don't have my charts and stuff with me, nor do I have great back-data for that era.

I'll give you that Deke has a considerably higher peak in terms of BLK% (percentage of available 2PT shots blocked) but the difference between their respective BLK% (0.9%) is lower, significantly so, than the difference in their STL% (1.7%).

If we look at per-36 numbers, Olajuwon (who played 35.7 mpg on his career) has a BPG of 3.1, same as his raw average. Deke goes from 2.8 to 3.2, so they were comparable in that regard. But again, Deke was a specialist and had little better to do than roam looking to contest shots with more energy than Dream had because he was busy scored 23+ ppg whilst triple-teamed.

And I think the steals were a fairly significant addition because it totally changed the approach a team had to take in order to score against the Rockets.

[thamadkant]

Hakeem!

I love Deke, and the admiral even... my fave of all time big man.

But Hakeem... when I was a kid didnt appreciate his game...

but now?... watching old tapes (my friend's a rockets fan), watching clips, looking at stats. Looking at comments from players....


Hakeem is technically the MOST GIFTED BIG MAN IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME.

On offense, had the arsenal and moves that no one has yet to match... finesse, power, smooth!!


On defense, uncanny coordination, he'll block you fading away.... a fadeway block shot...I mean what the heck is that!! who does that.
Robinson and Hakeem are the 2 most skilled shot blockers I've seen, and next to Hakeem, Robinson looked "normal".... Hakeem didnt look powerful or "show off" like when blocking shots, but he blocked them from angles you didnt expect.... like Camby today, Camby gets his hand on the ball a lot, but tsherkin stated, thats because Camby camps inside... Hakeem he blocked penetrators while guarding his man... running from the base line, from the back... heck he'll block you while your fading to the side... and while he's also fading on the other side.... extremely coordinated.... he did play soccer as a goal tender... man, a 7 footer goal tender... hehe.


Deke is awesome.. but Hakeem is the DREAM!