RealGM

At times figuring out who belongs in the top 10 can be a challenge but here is a method that basically shows who should be top 10 all time.

3+ League MVP's or 2+ Finals MVP's

Guys who have that are (in no particular order)

MJ (5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP's)
Magic (3 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
Wilt (4 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)
Kareem (6 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
Rusell (5 League MVP's)
Bird (3 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
Shaq (1 League MVP, 3 Finals MVP's)
Hakeem (1 League MVP's, 2 Finals MVP's)
Duncan (2 League MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's)
Moses Malone (3 League MVP's, 1 Finals MVP)


What do you think? Who shouldn't be on there? Or is it flawless? If you disagree provide support.

That's a very, very good way to see who has had the best careers. Judging a top 10 list for career achievements, accolades, etc., it's very good. Not flawless, considering it doesn't show stats, all-nba teams, all star games, all d teams, or DPOY awards. But mvp's and finals mvp's are very, very important.

For career, my top tier is Magic, Mj, russell, wilt, and kareem, in no order.
Second tier is Dr. J, shaq, duncan, moses malone, Bird, Hakeem, and maybe Karl Malone. Maybe Hondo, too.

That's not my overall top 10 though. I look at career accomplishments as secondary. To me, the most important criteria for judging a player, let alone putting him in the top 10, is what the player could do at his best. I look at the player's prime very closely. I see how they fit into their team, how they affected the other team, how they affected the game, and how dominant they were individually. Big game performances also count big time for me, too. Not necesarily clutch in that they need to take and make the last shot (though that helps), but they needed to perform well in big games.

Finals MVP doesn't really add anything to the mix. Right off the bat, the Finals MVP was first awarded in 1969. Bill Russell has no Finals MVPs. He'd have a ton. Wilt would have at least one more, and maybe more than that--it's possible that he'd have won in 1964 , for instance, when he averaged 29.2 points and 27.2 rebounds. We also don't have full ABA award listings--if we did, I'd imagine Dr. J would be around 4-5 MVPs and 1 finals MVP. And leaders of good teams will be disproportionately represented in Finals MVPs even when they aren't the best players. You can be a really good player on a team that wins the title...I'm not at all sure that makes you better than a player that is regarded as superior but has lesser talent around him. If there are two equally great players, and one is on a better team that wins the titles, the one player gets twice the credit...double-dipping, in effect. I think winning titles has some impact on individual player value...but the impact is largely overstated.

Some combination of MVP shares and/or Top 5 MVP voting works better. Even with that, we have to makes some adjustments for the ABA, etc.. In top 5 finishes in MVP voting, for instance, the top 15 looks like this:

1.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2.Bill Russell
3.Michael Jordan
4.Wilt Chamberlain
5.Larry Bird
6.Magic Johnson
7.Tim Duncan
8.Julius Erving
9.Karl Malone
10.Bob Pettit
11.Shaquille O'Neal
12.Jerry West

(This is giving Dr. J credit for four top 5 finishes in his five ABA years, which I think can be agreed to be a very fair adjustment.)

That's a good list. I'd quibble a bit; I think the top 3 is a toss-up between Kareem/MJ/Wilt--a totally subjective call. Other than that, I think that's an astonishingly accurate metric. It combines high peak (top 5 MVP performance) with longetivity (number of seasons at elite level). To make the top 12 here, you had to be one of the five best players in the league in eight separate seasons.

But the best way to judge, as always, is with your eyes and brain. At different times, I've felt Wilt was the GOAT. Then I thought it was Jordan. I've pretty much settled on Kareem lately...but my opinion has changed before. It will change again, I'm sure.

So if Billups wins a second Finals MVP he's top 10 all time? Nah, it's not that simple. Honestly, while I'm all for this kind of analysis, in the end there's no perfect metric.

Just in case you're interested, I'll share what I currently use to give a numerical approximation, and then compare that to my actual rankings. You'll find it both very arbitrary, and yet still pretty informative.

First off, I rank who I consider to have had the best season every year 1-10. This is regular + post season.

Then I give points as follows:

#1 - #5 -> 6 - 2 pts
#6 - #10 -> 1 pt
All-Star appearance - 0.5 pts
+1 pt for being a major player on a title winner, if they weren't in the top 10.

Here's how the top 10 by that metric, with my actual opinion in parens.

1. Bill Russell (3)
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (2)
3. Michael Jordan (1)
4. Wilt Chamberlain (4)
5. Magic Johnson (5)
6. Tim Duncan (7)
7. Shaquille O'Neal (9)
8. Larry Bird (6)
9. Julius Erving (8)
10. Bob Pettit (11-15)

I like Doc's system..but you say that you rank a player's season..do you mean your top 10 rankings at the end of the year, or do you mean the guys that had the 10 best seasons in general..because what about a guy like Wade that missed a lot of this year and played average for his standards..I consider him to be a top 10 player in the NBA, but definitely wouldn't rank his past season in the top 10..obviously injuries should have some consideration..

HarlemHeat37 wrote:I like Doc's system..but you say that you rank a player's season..do you mean your top 10 rankings at the end of the year, or do you mean the guys that had the 10 best seasons in general..because what about a guy like Wade that missed a lot of this year and played average for his standards..I consider him to be a top 10 player in the NBA, but definitely wouldn't rank his past season in the top 10..obviously injuries should have some consideration..

10 best seasons. I try to stay away from metrics beyond what actually happened on the court. Objectivity is hard enough to come by, no need to open it up to any more "what ifs".

It would help if players like Shaq weren't robbed of the award on multiple occassions. A player like Duncan was only a few games away from winning his 4th Finals MVP (and many argue that he should have won it), but lost it to Parker in the final two games at Cleveland.

There are also the debatable Finals MVP awards, like 1980 Magic over Kareem. It is a pretty good way to rank all-time greats, though. The only players who will end up with multiple MVP/Finals MVP awards are the best ever. I never use them against Wilt or for Russell, since I don't take awards too seriously if the players vote for them.

G I N T wrote:It would help if players like Shaq weren't robbed of the award on multiple occassions. A player like Duncan was only a few games away from winning his 4th Finals MVP (and many argue that he should have won it), but lost it to Parker in the final two games at Cleveland.

There are also the debatable Finals MVP awards, like 1980 Magic over Kareem. It is a pretty good way to rank all-time greats, though. The only players who will end up with multiple MVP/Finals MVP awards are the best ever. I never use them against Wilt or for Russell, since I don't take awards too seriously if the players vote for them.

This is exactly why I don't go based off such metrics. Shaq tops my list in 3 years, no matter how many MVPs he won.

Ironically based on what I'm saying there: I actually don't have a big problem with Shaq having only 1 MVP, and completely agree with the choice of Magic as 1980 Finals MVP.

You guys should definitely go work for NBA TV. Seriously, you guys are awesome.