Why is John Havlicek's name never mentioned in the top 10?

[JordansBulls]

Why does John Havlicek not get more mention as a top 10 player all time?

He has 8 rings, 1 Finals MVP, 4 All NBA First teams, 3 All Defensive 1st teams, 13 allstar games, all time Celtics scorer even over Bird at 26,395 points.

I'm not saying he should be a definite top 10 but some players names come up in the top 10 all time list but never his.

[TheSheriff]

I would say he is certainly a top 15 player and probably a top 12 player.

[shawngoat23]

John Havlicek is a legend and an eight-time world champion, but he's simply not a top 10 player in my book:
1. Jordan
2. Chamberlain
3. Abdul-Jabbar
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Johnson
7. Hakeem
8. O'Neal
9. West
10. Erving

You know who else isn't in the top 10? Well, it should be evident, but I'll enumerate the omitted players: Oscar Robertson (an exclusion on which I'm sure writerman will comment if he sees this), Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Kobe Bryant, Walt Frazier, George Mikan, Bob Pettit, Bob Cousy, etc. There have been many great players, but not all can make the top 10 or any other arbitrary cut-off.

[Jordan23Forever]

He has 8 rings, 1 Finals MVP, 4 All NBA First teams, 3 All Defensive 1st teams, 13 allstar games, all time Celtics scorer even over Bird at 26,395 points.

Havlicek actually made 5 defensive first teams (not 2), and 3 defensive second teams. And the defensive team wasn't even introduced until his 5th or 6th year in the league!

[writerman]

I usually go with bigs--and this will be heresy to some here, I'm sure--but for starters I'd put him ahead of Erving, Olajowon, and O'Neal.

A lot is made of Kobe never winning without a top-tier 2nd banana, but that cuts both ways-- neither has Shaq. I know I'll get hopped by tsherkin for this, but I've always seen Shaq, even prime Shaq, as dominant at least partially because the opposition in his era at the five was in general pretty pathetic. I'll say it--prime Wilt would have made Shaq his beeyotch, and guys like Thurmond, Jabbar, Russell, healthy prime Walton, and Gilmore are all better than any opposition Shaq ever saw on a consistent basis save maybe Duncan and DRob.

Despite his supposed success against Shaq, note that I don't put Hakeem at that level. Olajowon IMO is the fair-haired boy on this board for some reason--but there are several centers, including all the ones above, I would rank ahead of him, let alone put him in the top ten of all players all time. Very good, but not that good.

I love the Doctor, and he was a great player, but all-around not as good as Hondo. He was a higher flyer, but Havlicek did everything else just as well and most things better.

BTW--any top ten that doesn't include Walt Frazier IMO is automatically bogus. And show a little sense; when talking top ten, at the very least you should talk top ten by position. When talking GOAT IMO there are only a few obvious choices--Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, West, Oscar, Michael, and the Birdman.

[ronnymac2]

I usually go with bigs--and this will be heresy to some here, I'm sure--but for starters I'd put him ahead of Erving, Olajowon, and O'Neal.

A lot is made of Kobe never winning without a top-tier 2nd banana, but that cuts both ways-- neither has Shaq. I know I'll get hopped by tsherkin for this, but I've always seen Shaq, even prime Shaq, as dominant at least partially because the opposition in his era at the five was in general pretty pathetic. I'll say it--prime Wilt would have made Shaq his beeyotch, and guys like Thurmond, Jabbar, Russell, healthy prime Walton, and Gilmore are all better than any opposition Shaq ever saw on a consistent basis save maybe Duncan and DRob.

Despite his supposed success against Shaq, note that I don't put Hakeem at that level. Olajowon IMO is the fair-haired boy on this board for some reason--but there are several centers, including all the ones above, I would rank ahead of him, let alone put him in the top ten of all players all time. Very good, but not that good.

I love the Doctor, and he was a great player, but all-around not as good as Hondo. He was a higher flyer, but Havlicek did everything else just as well and most things better.

BTW--any top ten that doesn't include Walt Frazier IMO is automatically bogus. And show a little sense; when talking top ten, at the very least you should talk top ten by position. When talking GOAT IMO there are only a few obvious choices--Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, West, Oscar, Michael, and the Birdman.

Ok, first, I'd like to say I think Hondo was awesome. Imo, he's top 20 all the time. I love his ability to play 2 positions at an all-star level. I love his ability fit a team for whatever they need, whether it be super sixth man, leading scorer/2nd most valuable player (Russell was always more valuable), or great player in a 1-2 combo (with cowens. Idk which one was more important tho). He and Pippen have the most assists ever for non-guards. He rebounded. He was dominant on d. And clutch as hell. I was watching him on espn classic today against the bucks. He had what it takes to make big plays down the stretch. He was a good scorer, too.

That said, I have questions for this post.

How do you justify Hondo over Dr. J? Dr. J was the face of the ABA. Then was an all time great in the nba. He was one of the most complete players ever.

Did you by any chance ever read my post about Shaq and Wilt in that forum made about game footage in the 60's?

Why was Hakeem "not that good" when talking about the other top centers ever?


Also, I'd just like to say that I agree that Walt Frazier was very dominant. I mean, he's not top 10 for me, but he was really really great. 36 and 19 in a game 7? AT LEAST in my top 5 single game performances in nba history.

[tsherkin]

I usually go with bigs--and this will be heresy to some here, I'm sure--but for starters I'd put him ahead of Erving, Olajowon, and O'Neal.

A lot is made of Kobe never winning without a top-tier 2nd banana, but that cuts both ways-- neither has Shaq. I know I'll get hopped by tsherkin for this, but I've always seen Shaq, even prime Shaq, as dominant at least partially because the opposition in his era at the five was in general pretty pathetic

Here I come.

It's almost like our little ritual...

Realistically, Shaq played a chunk of his career against Olajuwon, Ewing and D-Rob and then started winning titles after they mostly retired or declined, that's true. But how many centers could effectively guard Wilt in his time? Even Russell, one of the best defensive players in NBA history, didn't do a very good job on Shaq.

Instead, he played great team defense and played on great teams. There have been great teams since that time and Shaq has faced them. The Kings, the Spurs, the Jazz, the Blazers (for a while), there were tons of really dangerous squads that L.A. faced while winning titles; they called the WCFs the 'real Finals' for a reason.

And yeah, he still had to face Duncan and D-Rob on the same squad, he still had to face Deke (who was as good as Thurmond), he still had to face a host of different teams that were significant barriers to his competition.

Plus, you forget that the best years of his career came against the primes of Olajuwon, Ewing and D-Rob... he went head-to-head with all of them and did just as nasty work as he usually did. Yes, his Finals stats are garishly inflated by the weak competition of the Nets and Pacers (less so the Sixers, though) on account of Todd MacCullough and Rik Smits but c'mon, writerman, as endearing as this ritual is, the fact that you continuously underrate Shaq like this is a little tiring.

. I'll say it--prime Wilt would have made Shaq his beeyotch, and guys like Thurmond, Jabbar, Russell, healthy prime Walton, and Gilmore are all better than any opposition Shaq ever saw on a consistent basis save maybe Duncan and DRob.

Wilt would have scored against Shaq, that's true, but so to would Shaq have scored on Wilt. It would have been an epic matchup every time but it wouldn't have been one-sided. When Wilt was mobile enough to really go at Shaq athletically, he was 40+ pounds lighter than Shaq and the Diesel is very, very strong in his own right. The mass difference would have made it difficult for Wilt (who hit the league at 220, hit around 260, 270 by the '67 title and then hit 300 or so when he made his way to L.A.) to be as effective and he did lose athleticism as he aged and gained muscle.

Of course, just how much weight difference there would be would depend on the respective incarnations of Shaq and Wilt. Young Wilt? '67 Wilt? Lakers Wilt? Young Shaq (drafted at 303 pounds)? MVP Shaq? Fat Shaq? Miami Shaq?

Orlando and MVP Shaq would gave given Wilt the run of his life... though he'd be doing the same to Shaq.

Despite his supposed success against Shaq, note that I don't put Hakeem at that level. Olajowon IMO is the fair-haired boy on this board for some reason--but there are several centers, including all the ones above, I would rank ahead of him, let alone put him in the top ten of all players all time. Very good, but not that good.

Strange... Olajuwon is maybe the best defensive center since Bill Russell, the most athletic center I've ever seen live and was one of the most unguardable scorers I've ever seen, period. He was a dominant rebounder, developed into a good passer and was just straight-up nasty.

And you think he's the "fair-haired boy?" What didn't he do? MVP, 2 DPOYs, 2 titles and 2 Finals MVPs, 2 rebounding titles, 3 blocked shots titles (actually, 2 total blocks titles and 3 BPG titles), 6 All-NBA 1st team selections in a career that mixed with Kareem, Moses Malone, D-Rob, Ewing and Shaq... 5 All-Defensive 1st Team selections in that same era...

I mean, he has the personal accolades, the team achievements, the recognition compared to his peers... what else is missing for you? He made fools of his opponents, scored regularly against triple-teams, won his first title with nobodies and journeymen and a weak coach... what else did he have to do? He was tall, strong, superbly athletic, peaked as one of the most incredible skill players in the game and was outstanding defensively.

He was Shaq's BEST competition and he was one of the best players of all-time.

I love the Doctor, and he was a great player, but all-around not as good as Hondo. He was a higher flyer, but Havlicek did everything else just as well and most things better.

Hard to tell with such a big chunk of Dr. J's healthy and athletic years in the ABA and him being injured and older in the NBA. Still managed an MVP and some spectacular performances.

BTW--any top ten that doesn't include Walt Frazier IMO is automatically bogus. And show a little sense; when talking top ten, at the very least you should talk top ten by position. When talking GOAT IMO there are only a few obvious choices--Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, West, Oscar, Michael, and the Birdman.

Walt Frazier was not one of the ten best players in the history of the NBA. He was one of the 15 or 20 best, easily, and certainly one of the best PGs of all-time, but not one of the ten best regardless of position.

[Point forward]

Why does John Havlicek not get more mention as a top 10 player all time?

He has 8 rings, 1 Finals MVP, 4 All NBA First teams, 3 All Defensive 1st teams, 13 allstar games, all time Celtics scorer even over Bird at 26,395 points.

I'm not saying he should be a definite top 10 but some players names come up in the top 10 all time list but never his.

Hondo was the perfect complementary player, he was the best of Pippen and Horry rolled into one. However, he lacked superstar charisma (unlike Doc or Bird), was never the most dominant player of the NBA (unlike Moses or Shaq) and did not change the game in any way (unlike Doc or Oscar). You can make a case for Hondo being in the Top 10, but honestly, I would feel strange about it.

[tmac4real]

You make a good point, but he doesnt belong in top 10 but still underrated.

For example I wouldn't take someone like Baylor over him, which alot of people do

[Gant]

I rank Havlicek easily higher than Olajuwon. He was a top level player for much much longer. It's not close. Cowens and Olajuwon are more equivalent.

Havlicek's greatness cannot be measured in stats alone (though he had those). His ability to sprint the whole game and leave his opposite number tired out in the 4th quarter was his hallmark. He was a endurance freak with an unusual (really) heart that enabled him to run endlessly.

He's right on the edge of the top 10 but not quite there.

When Havlicek was in his mid-30s (very old by the standards of the day) he faced Dr.J in his prime with the Nets in an exhibition game. Havlicek destroyed him.

[wigglestrue]

I think Hondo should be The 17th Greatest Player Ever into perpetuity.

[KNICKS1970]

Probably because there are at least 10 players better/greater than him.

Off the top of my head I'd rank Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Oscar, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, West, and Dr. J ahead of Hondo without even having to think to hard about it. I think historically he's in the 13-16 range with Kobe, Moses, and Karl Malone.

[shawngoat23]

I rank Havlicek easily higher than Olajuwon. He was a top level player for much much longer. It's not close. Cowens and Olajuwon are more equivalent.

I'm guessing you're a Celtic fan.

You might be able to make a case that Havlicek was better than Olajuwon, although few people would take you seriously. It's ridiculous to say that Havlicek should be ranked easily higher than Olajuwon.

Havlicek was one of the greatest defenders to ever play, but Olajuwon **** on him in terms of defensive impact. Havlicek did have a longer "top level" career, but Olajuwon had an amazing prime. Havlicek was a nice 6th man for the Russell Celtics and a great #1 player for the pre-merger Celtic champions of the 70s (which was in my opinion the weakest period int he modern era). But Olajuwon won a ring in 1994 with a second guy who was much worse than Cowens and White and comparable at best to Nelson, Silas, etc. You'd be hard pressed to argue that Havlicek was better than Olajuwon, and to suggest that Cowens (who would be the best center in the league today IMO) is equivalent to Olajuwon is just laughable.

[Gant]

I rank Havlicek easily higher than Olajuwon. He was a top level player for much much longer. It's not close. Cowens and Olajuwon are more equivalent.

I'm guessing you're a Celtic fan.

You might be able to make a case that Havlicek was better than Olajuwon, although few people would take you seriously. It's ridiculous to say that Havlicek should be ranked easily higher than Olajuwon.

Havlicek was one of the greatest defenders to ever play, but Olajuwon **** on him in terms of defensive impact. Havlicek did have a longer "top level" career, but Olajuwon had an amazing prime. Havlicek was a nice 6th man for the Russell Celtics and a great #1 player for the pre-merger Celtic champions of the 70s (which was in my opinion the weakest period int he modern era). But Olajuwon won a ring in 1994 with a second guy who was much worse than Cowens and White and comparable at best to Nelson, Silas, etc. You'd be hard pressed to argue that Havlicek was better than Olajuwon, and to suggest that Cowens (who would be the best center in the league today IMO) is equivalent to Olajuwon is just laughable.

Why? Cowens and Olajuwon both had short primes. Both won two titles. Both were terrific. IMHO the 90s when Jordan didn't play (and Houston won) was basketball's weakest era. There was also a very weak era in the 70s but it was around 77-78.

If Cowens could be so effective against Milwaukee's awesome young Kareem; he could surely keep pace with Olajuwon.

As far as Havlicek over Olajuwon it is no contest. Havlicek at his best was just as good as Olajuwon but his prime lasted 15 years! 15 versus 5 years or so of top level play.

Havlicek was amazing.

[tsherkin]

I rank Havlicek easily higher than Olajuwon. He was a top level player for much much longer. It's not close. Cowens and Olajuwon are more equivalent.

This isn't accurate at all.

Havlicek's career lasted 16 seasons, of which 6 or 7 seasons really stand out as top-tier play (as a starter). He had many other very good seasons, including the seasons where he was basically the paragon sixth man, but he was elite for "only" 6 or 7 seasons.

Olajuwon, by contrast, dominated one of the greatest eras for centers and was elite for at least 10 or 11 seasons. He's got the MVP and the 2 DPOYs, the 2 Finals MVPs, the All-NBA and All-Defensive First Teams over some of the greatest players ever at his position. What he did, especially relative to the competition of his period, was far superior to what Havlicek managed.

When Havlicek was in his mid-30s (very old by the standards of the day) he faced Dr.J in his prime with the Nets in an exhibition game. Havlicek destroyed him.

A single game, particularly in an exhibition season, and against a player who was suffering from injured knees once he hit the NBA, means little (though it is impressive from the standpoint of Havlicek performing at that age).

Havlicek is, of course, top-20 at absolute rock-bottom value. He was an incredibly versatile player, able to rebound, run the offense, create shots for others, score well and defend like a monster and he has the stats and achievements to bear that out.

Hmm, who do I rate above Havlicek?

My top-10 usually looks like:

Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Oscar, West, Shaq and Duncan/Hakeem(in some order or other, I flip-flop a lot).

Then a bunch of players like Karl Malone, Garnett, Hakeem/Duncan (whoever isn't in the top-10), Dr. J, Barkley, Drexler, Pettit, Frazier, D-Rob, Havlicek, Moses Malone, Kobe and Dominique.

I'd put Havlicek over Dr. J on the basis of NBA achievements (mostly defensively; Hondo was a better defender and led two teams to a title besides the Russell-era Celtics).

I'd put him over Drexler because he succeeded where Drexler failed, in the Finals. I put him over Frazier because he was a more versatile player (though I wouldn't call the gap between them large because they shared a lot in common) and I'd put him over Kobe, 'Nique and Barkley for the same reason. 'Nique didn't even make the Finals, though of course his teams were rarely as good as those enjoyed by Kobe and Barkley in their Finals runs.

Over D-Rob, too.

Better than Moses? Yeah, probably. Better teammate, better team success (though Moses was no slouch in that regard). Better than Pettit? Pettit beat Russell's Celtics, made the Finals four times and the CFs 4 other times, had a pair of scoring titles, 11-time All-Star, 10-time All-NBA First Team (in an 11-year career), 2 MVPs, 4 All-Star Game MVPs, 6 top-5 MVP finishes besides his wins and a 6th-place finish besides that, a rebounding title, a 20.3 rpg season... Pettit was pretty outstanding, I don't think Havlicek beats him out.

That pretty much leaves, Hakeem/Duncan, Garnett, Malone and Pettit, along with my top-10, above Hondo... which makes him 15th best all-time on first pass.

What Point Forward said resonates, though, and makes me re-think Moses below Hondo; did Hondo change the way the game was played with his style like a Russell or Magic or those guys? He was never at any point the most dominant player in the league. He wasn't close to that in the 60s with Wilt, Bill and Oscar playing and in the 70s, it was clearly Kareem and his 5 MVPs. Havlicek is notably absent from the list of former NBA MVPs. He only finished top-5 twice (4th and 5th) and only registered otherwise at 7th, 10th, 9th and 24th. In fact, he played with an MVP, Dave Cowens. Cowens won the MVP in 72-73 and finished 4th and 3rd the years the Celtics won the title in the 70s. He also finished 2nd in the year between their titles. So that casts some level of shadow on Havlicek's legacy in terms of his all-time ranking. FWIW, he finished 9th and 24th the years they won the title.

But did he change the game? He was the prototypical sixth man, that kind of counts but what of Cowens?

Cowens was the 2nd-leading scorer in 73-74 (behind Havlicek) and the leading rebounder and in 75-76, he again led the team in rebounding but led the team in scoring as well. He mixed in an All-Defensive First Team in 75-76 as well (he made the All-Defensive teams two other times). So say what you will but he was a dominant player in his own right while the Celtics were winning those post-Russell titles and that leaves lingering doubts about who really was the best player on the Celtics in those years.

Ultimately, I like Havlicek at the 15th spot, that feels right to me. Not top-10 but not far from it either, he was a pretty spectacular player and to some extent, his early success with Russell's Celtics clearly limited what he could accomplish individually, as did playing in an era that started with Wilt, Russ and Oscar and ended with Kareem's most dominant decade.

[Gant]

Havlicek's play was top level through almost his whole career. He did get shortened minutes in the early seasons on an incredibly deep roster.

Olajuwon was fairly raw when he came in. It took him many seasons to gain his top form.

Still, we do agree on approximately where Havlicek ranks all time. It seems we disagree on Olajuwon, not on #17.

[wigglestrue]

What Point Forward said resonates, though, and makes me re-think Moses below Hondo; did Hondo change the way the game was played with his style like a Russell or Magic or those guys?

Perhaps his style would have changed the way the game was played if more players were capable of moving full-bore, uninterrupted for 40 or so minutes? Not many have ever been capable of that on one end of the court (a la Rip or Reggie), never mind both ends of the court.

[KNICKS1970]

I actually somewhat agree with writerman re: Hakeem. I think there's a lot of rose-colored glasses when it comes to him, like everyone thinks the 1994 season and the 1995 playoffs is representative of his entire career. The Robinson-Olajuwon debate was actually a lot closer than people choose remember because of what happened in the '95 playoffs. Same thing with Ewing-Olajuwon. I think Hakeem is a better player than both of them and he did outplayed them in key playoff/Finals games in 1994 and 1995, but I get this feeling that people think that Olajuwon embarassed both of them (and Shaq) continously throughout his career and was always regarded as the #2 player in the league, when that's not the case at all.

[tracey_nice]

Lol @ Havlicek better than Hakeem; next thing I am going to see is JordanBulls arguing for Kobe.

[Gant]

Lol @ Havlicek better than Hakeem; next thing I am going to see is JordanBulls arguing for Kobe.

How many seasons did you see Havlicek play?