Gant wrote:I rank Havlicek easily higher than Olajuwon. He was a top level player for much much longer. It's not close. Cowens and Olajuwon are more equivalent.
This isn't accurate at all.
Havlicek's career lasted 16 seasons, of which 6 or 7 seasons really stand out as top-tier play (as a starter). He had many other very good seasons, including the seasons where he was basically the paragon sixth man, but he was elite for "only" 6 or 7 seasons.
Olajuwon, by contrast, dominated one of the greatest eras for centers and was elite for at least 10 or 11 seasons. He's got the MVP and the 2 DPOYs, the 2 Finals MVPs, the All-NBA and All-Defensive First Teams over some of the greatest players ever at his position. What he did, especially relative to the competition of his period, was far superior to what Havlicek managed.
When Havlicek was in his mid-30s (very old by the standards of the day) he faced Dr.J in his prime with the Nets in an exhibition game. Havlicek destroyed him.
A single game, particularly in an exhibition season, and against a player who was suffering from injured knees once he hit the NBA, means little (though it is impressive from the standpoint of Havlicek performing at that age).
Havlicek is, of course, top-20 at absolute rock-bottom value. He was an incredibly versatile player, able to rebound, run the offense, create shots for others, score well and defend like a monster and he has the stats and achievements to bear that out.
Hmm, who do I rate above Havlicek?
My top-10 usually looks like:
Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Oscar, West, Shaq and Duncan/Hakeem(in some order or other, I flip-flop a lot).
Then a bunch of players like Karl Malone, Garnett, Hakeem/Duncan (whoever isn't in the top-10), Dr. J, Barkley, Drexler, Pettit, Frazier, D-Rob, Havlicek, Moses Malone, Kobe and Dominique.
I'd put Havlicek over Dr. J on the basis of NBA achievements (mostly defensively; Hondo was a better defender and led two teams to a title besides the Russell-era Celtics).
I'd put him over Drexler because he succeeded where Drexler failed, in the Finals. I put him over Frazier because he was a more versatile player (though I wouldn't call the gap between them large because they shared a lot in common) and I'd put him over Kobe, 'Nique and Barkley for the same reason. 'Nique didn't even make the Finals, though of course his teams were rarely as good as those enjoyed by Kobe and Barkley in their Finals runs.
Over D-Rob, too.
Better than Moses? Yeah, probably. Better teammate, better team success (though Moses was no slouch in that regard). Better than Pettit? Pettit beat Russell's Celtics, made the Finals four times and the CFs 4 other times, had a pair of scoring titles, 11-time All-Star, 10-time All-NBA First Team (in an 11-year career), 2 MVPs, 4 All-Star Game MVPs, 6 top-5 MVP finishes besides his wins and a 6th-place finish besides that, a rebounding title, a 20.3 rpg season... Pettit was pretty outstanding, I don't think Havlicek beats him out.
That pretty much leaves, Hakeem/Duncan, Garnett, Malone and Pettit, along with my top-10, above Hondo... which makes him 15th best all-time on first pass.
What Point Forward said resonates, though, and makes me re-think Moses below Hondo; did Hondo change the way the game was played with his style like a Russell or Magic or those guys? He was never at any point the most dominant player in the league. He wasn't close to that in the 60s with Wilt, Bill and Oscar playing and in the 70s, it was clearly Kareem and his 5 MVPs. Havlicek is notably absent from the list of former NBA MVPs. He only finished top-5 twice (4th and 5th) and only registered otherwise at 7th, 10th, 9th and 24th. In fact, he played with an MVP, Dave Cowens. Cowens won the MVP in 72-73 and finished 4th and 3rd the years the Celtics won the title in the 70s. He also finished 2nd in the year between their titles. So that casts some level of shadow on Havlicek's legacy in terms of his all-time ranking. FWIW, he finished 9th and 24th the years they won the title.
But did he change the game? He was the prototypical sixth man, that kind of counts but what of Cowens?
Cowens was the 2nd-leading scorer in 73-74 (behind Havlicek) and the leading rebounder and in 75-76, he again led the team in rebounding but led the team in scoring as well. He mixed in an All-Defensive First Team in 75-76 as well (he made the All-Defensive teams two other times). So say what you will but he was a dominant player in his own right while the Celtics were winning those post-Russell titles and that leaves lingering doubts about who really was the best player on the Celtics in those years.
Ultimately, I like Havlicek at the 15th spot, that feels right to me. Not top-10 but not far from it either, he was a pretty spectacular player and to some extent, his early success with Russell's Celtics clearly limited what he could accomplish individually, as did playing in an era that started with Wilt, Russ and Oscar and ended with Kareem's most dominant decade.
