Ray Allen vs. Reggie Miller

[thegreatblaze]

In their primes, who is the better pure shooter?

I'm actually tempted to pick Allen. He set the record for most 3's made in a season a few years back, and set the finals record for most 3's made in a series. Reggie does rank 1st all-time in 3's made, but Allen will probably catch him. Allen has better career scoring numbers as well.

A solid argument can be made for both.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

If the games on the line, I'm passing to Reggie.

[halfHAVOC]

damn this is close

imo ray is also a better spot up shooter but reggie is better off screens

ray allen has a more inside game but i think reggie is the better shooter.

agree with magilla, if the games on the line im giving it to reggie, hes a more clutch shooter.

[wigglestrue]

Overall in their primes they were about equal as shooters. It's a pick 'em. I'm really disappointed it's not an overall career comparison, because I crave any chance to expose how overrated Reggie Miller is, with apologies to Reggie since he really was a terrific scorer.

[thegreatblaze]

Overall in their primes they were about equal as shooters. It's a pick 'em. I'm really disappointed it's not an overall career comparison, because I crave any chance to expose how overrated Reggie Miller is, with apologies to Reggie since he really was a terrific scorer.

You can turn this into a career debate if you like. It really makes no difference to me.

Feel free to post their stats and give your reasonings.

[tsherkin]

Well, let's put it this way:

Reggie shot 4+ 3PA and hit on 40% or better 6 times.

Ray did it only four times...

BUT

Reggie's career-high in 3PA is 6.6.

Ray Allen took 6.6+ 3PA/g 6 times in his career and shot 40%+ twice and never less than 37.2%.

He's even at 88.9% FT versus Reggie's 88.8%. Career 3P%? 39.5% for Reggie, 39.7 for Ray and Ray didn't get to benefit from the 3 seasons in the 90s (94-95 through 96-97) where they pulled the three-point line in to 22 feet from 23'9. Reggie shot 41.5, 41 and 42.7 percent those years, representing three of his 6 best 3PT shooting seasons.

Reggie was a great shooter without reservation but Ray has shot a higher percentage in a career where he's taken an average of 1.4 more three-point attempts per game. He's the one with the single-season record for threes made that even Reggie couldn't set when they pulled the line in (go, go Dennis Scott).

This is Ray; he's the better shooter... and as wiggles notes, the better player.

[NO-KG-AI]

I think Ray was the better shooter, he's got better volume by like 1.4 more three pointers per game, and while their % is roughly the same, Ray's is a little higher( 39.7, to 39.5). I Also think Ray has had less to work with in his career, and has taken a lot more contested shots.

I give the edge to Ray by a bit.

As far as playing career, I think Reggie was more clutch, but I think Ray was a better player by a big enough gap that I would take him, and he's quite clutch himself.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'd say Ray's gap in scoring is equaled by Reggie's gap in clutchness..I'd say it's a pick-em between the 2 of them..

being clutch is a lot more difficult than people think..it's not just making a timely shot every once in a while or getting a timely rebound and defensive stop..it's when the other team actually fears when you have the ball in clutch time, and when their crowd completely fears you..Reggie's made enough unbelievable shots in clutch time that make his legacy a lot more appealing than his stats show IMO..his shot against NJ was an impossible shot..his 2 3's against the Knicks..his 4th quarters vs. NY, where he was shooting them from the parking lot..I remember a regular season game in 2003 vs. Memphis where he hadn't made a 3 all-game..took a 3 to tie the game, missed, got his own rebound and ran to the baseline 3, pump faked, and made a fadeaway 3 over Battier to send the game into OT..

he's on a clutch level where only a few can match him IMO..Allen is clutch too..I'd say Ray was a slightly better player in the regular season, but I think they're equals, or Reggie was even better, in the playoffs..his clutch moments put him over the top IMO, it's just something that you can't teach..only a few have that mystique..

[wigglestrue]

I'd say Ray's gap in scoring is equaled by Reggie's gap in clutchness..I'd say it's a pick-em between the 2 of them..

You're comparing them as overall players? If you're giving Ray scoring, then whoa, realize the gap extends and deepens to every other part of the game of basketball, except I guess for timely pressure shooting. Ray Allen has been a significantly better player than Reggie Miller.

[HarlemHeat37]

I meant the efficiency stats that tsherkin and NO mentioned for "scoring gap"..

Ray's "all-around game" isn't really an advantage IMO..Ray Allen has never been known for having a great all-around game..his usage was higher for the most part and he was put in different situations that were more ideal for him to pick up his assist numbers IMO..that wasn't Reggie..

[thegreatblaze]

I meant the efficiency stats that tsherkin and NO mentioned for "scoring gap"..

Ray's "all-around game" isn't really an advantage IMO..Ray Allen has never been known for having a great all-around game..his usage was higher for the most part and he was put in different situations that were more ideal for him to pick up his assist numbers IMO..that wasn't Reggie..

Huh? Allen pratically averages more assists for his career (3.9) than Reggie has had in a single season (4.0), and more rebounds for his career (4.5) than Reggie has for a single season (3.9). Say all you want about Reggie's 'situation', but I find it hard to believe that he couldn't average more rebounds or assists over his career.

If anyone is one-dminesional, it's Reggie.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'd say they both are, which was my point..

since when is Ray Allen considered an all-around player?..

[thegreatblaze]

I'd say they both are, which was my point..

since when is Ray Allen considered an all-around player?..

Never. But he certainly is a better all-around player than Reggie, in almost every statistical category.

[wigglestrue]

I meant the efficiency stats that tsherkin and NO mentioned for "scoring gap"..

Ray's "all-around game" isn't really an advantage IMO..Ray Allen has never been known for having a great all-around game..his usage was higher for the most part and he was put in different situations that were more ideal for him to pick up his assist numbers IMO..that wasn't Reggie..

Eh. I don't think it's a matter of usage or situation here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... 01&y2=2002

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't see how Allen's playing style(on his team/situation) wouldn't allow him to pick up more assists than Reg's playing style(situation), specifically in Seattle, where he was asked to play that role much more..his APG went up by 2.5 from Milwaukee to Seattle in his first year and then averaged 4.8 in his 2nd year, due to more responsibility..his APG went back down to his Milwaukee averages when Rashard Lewis started averaging 20 PPG and took a bigger role offensively..

he only had 1 good APG season in Milwaukee, which was an anomaly IMO..

he averaged 4.3 in another year, which was in the same role he played in Seattle for 50 games..it was skewed, because the primary ballhandler, Terrell Brandon, played only 50 games..Brandon averaged 7.7 APG on the season..in the 32 games he missed and Allen played in, Ray averaged 5.3 APG, compared to 3.7 APG with Brandon in the lineup(which is around his average in Milwaukee)..his other APG numbers in Milwaukee were 2.6, 3.6, 3.8, 3.9, 3.5..

Reggie averaged 3.8 in his 3rd year(higher pace) on a team with guys averaging 3 APG, 3.2 APG and a guy averaging 7.4 APG..averaged 4 APG in the year after(again, higher pace) on a team with guys averaging 3 APG, 3.7, 5.3 and 4.8..3.8 in the year after on a team with guys averaging 4.7, 3.9, 8.2 and 3.2..a low 3.2 APG the year after, but with guys averaging 7.7, 6 and 3..

this trend continues in pretty much every year..Reggie's usage % also pretty much matches the differences between his higher APG totals and his lower APG totals, but I guess that doesn't matter that much..

I'm not trying to say that Reggie Miller is an underrated passer or anything, I just don't believe Allen was significantly superior in this way at all..different systems obviously matter, same with different teammates..

so I think it comes down to a pick 'em..

[NO-KG-AI]

They probably are equal as passers, but Ray is/was better at beating guys off the dribble and getting to the rim, which is a reason he gets more assists IMO.

clutch is nice, but I think it's overrated because all things equal, the team with the better player is going to win, because the game isn't going to come down to the wire.

[HarlemHeat37]

I agree with the last sentence, but like I said, I don't think there's much of a difference between Allen and Miller, so it's a pick 'em..it becomes based on preference..since I don't consider them to be much different in terms of ability, I'll take Miller and his ability to step up to new heights when it matters..

[NO-KG-AI]

I agree with the last sentence, but like I said, I don't think there's much of a difference between Allen and Miller, so it's a pick 'em..it becomes based on preference..since I don't consider them to be much different in terms of ability, I'll take Miller and his ability to step up to new heights when it matters..

I agree, we just disagree on how big the gap is.

[A.J.]

As a shooter I will have to go with Allen. As a player give me Miller.

[ronnymac2]

I think a Reggie vs. Ray thread was made a few weeks ago, with most people saying Ray was more complete and reggie was bigger in the postseason and clutch. That seems to be what people are saying here.

One thing Miller does better than Ray is using screens. I'm not talking about coming off a screen and shooting. I'm talking about when Miller is constantly running and using sreens in a masterful way, he is occupying the guy guarding him. That opposing guard can't double down into the post or rotate on another shooter because he constantly needs to get to Reggie.

Now, Ray Allen does this, too. He actually proved what I'm talking in the finals when Kobe would guard him. It seemed when Bryant guarded him, Allen either got open looks because Bryant was roaming or doubling on KG, or else KG was going off against 1 on 1 coverage since Bryant was occupied with chasing Ray around. Ray does things like this, but I beleive Reggie did it more, and did it better. Miller was also a very good post entry passer (especially for jermaine o'neal), if you want to talk about passing, though I think Allen passes better due to being able to play more effectively on the drive and the pick-n-roll.

As shooters, I mean, I don't really see much of a difference in any shooting percentage that warrants saying one is better than the other as a player. The numbers do say Ray is a better shooter. Just looking at their forms, I would believe that Ray is the better shooter.

To add some context to some of those stats though, the 3 pointer wasn't as prevalent in the first half of the 90's as it was since then. Allen's career has been throughout the whole era of very prevalent 3 point shooting, while Miller's was not. So of course, Ray's 3 pt. makes and attempts are going to be higher. I've actually been meaning to start a thread on how the 3 point shot has had as big an effect on the nba any other rule change. Maybe next week...lol.

Overall, i do think Ray is the more complete player. He's not great at everything, but I think it's fairly clear he's better at most things than Miller. But Miller went toe-to-toe with Jordan, the great 90's knicks, and shaq's magic (if i remeber right). He was the best player on those teams. He was the best player on the 98 Pacers, a very, very good team. He had great team playoff success, mainly because of himself. He made the finals in 2000. I can't not take Miller in this one.