RealGM

Having a disagreement over on the General NBA Board, so just wanted your inputs.

Who is better, Dirk Nowitzki or Elton Brand?

No comments?

perhaps Elton Brand did the right thing since he actually gets noticed now

dirk is the better player. but maybe brand is the better pf.

Dirk. It's not that far off statistically, but his teams have had such great success with wildly different players and systems that you simply can't discount him.

Dirk is more versatile on O, healthier, beat the Suns, and is LOYAL TO HIS TEAM.

Gimme Dirk.

EDIT: Just to elaborate, look at this. Dirk in rapid succession loses Mike Finley (team captain), Nash (elite PG and his best friend) and Don Nelson, his mentor and surrogate dad. What does Dirk do? Instead fo running away, he grows some serious cojones, becomes the franchise player and a legit superstar, beats the Spurs in one year and becomes MVP in the other, even if he never got a happy end.

While Brand may fit the mold of a typical PF better, he is not a better PF. I'll take the little things that I'm missing from Dirk's game, like the strong post scoring and Brand's superior rebounding. In return you get a total matchup nightmare.

Dirk is one of the best passing bigs in the league, where Brand is not. Dirk is a 7-footer at the PF spot, so you can't just stick a big body on him like you can on 6'8" Brand and hope to be effective. Furthermore, Elton's J is sweet but he has nowhere near Dirk's touch. Making a big forward guard you out to the three-point line is hell on an opposing defense.

While Brand will probably post a good showing on your frontcourt player and lead his team, Dirk will change the entire dynamic of the basketball game, from your defensive schematics to personnel.

Dirk, easy.

Dirk is criminally underrated on these boards - he is a top 5 PF of all time on the offensive end, and a decent defender. His shooting, passing and slashing skills are ridiculous for a 7 footer. He led his team to the 6th best regular season record of all-time (67-15) with JOSH HOWARD as the 2nd best player on the team (J-Ho would be a 3rd fiddle on most contending teams, never mind one of the greatest regular season teams of all time). The Mavs, under Dirk, have won more than 50 games for 8 straight seasons. Opposing bigs have no idea how to guard Dirk on the perimiter, and drawing them out to the 3 point line means an open lane/easy slashing for Dirk's teammates. Too bad with Harris gone, nobody on Dallas slashes - Maggette would have been such a perfect fit (Maggette at the 3, JHo at the 2).

Come on. Dirk was a former MVP. Brand is starting to get a little overrated on these boards

Dirk

Bargnani.

Two biggest knocks on Dirk is he is a jumpshooter and he is soft.

Dirk

07-08 81% jumpers 7.1 FTA/G
06-07 81% jumpers 7.1 FTA/G
05-06 82% jumpers 7.4 FTA/G
04-05 80% jumpers 9.1 FTA/G

Brand

07-08 75% jumpers 5.9 FTA/G
06-07 70% jumpers 5.8 FTA/G
05-06 70% jumpers 7.2 FTA/G
04-05 62% jumpers 6.0 FTA/G

CBS7 wrote:Two biggest knocks on Dirk is he is a jumpshooter and he is soft.

Dirk

07-08 81% jumpers 7.1 FTA/G
06-07 81% jumpers 7.1 FTA/G
05-06 82% jumpers 7.4 FTA/G
04-05 80% jumpers 9.1 FTA/G

Brand

07-08 75% jumpers 5.9 FTA/G
06-07 70% jumpers 5.8 FTA/G
05-06 70% jumpers 7.2 FTA/G
04-05 62% jumpers 6.0 FTA/G

Aptly put. And Elton has nowhere near the range of Dirk.

Definitely Elton Brand

Much more traditional big man, can impact the game better when his offense is off, more versatile offensively (post-up, face-up, jumpshot, passing (this is not to overlook Dirk's passing, he's improved there, it's just because Elton is a skilled facilitator also) ).

I'll take dirk. This isn't an easy comparison though. Brand is really good, and pure power foward. He's better on d and on the boards. And he's a better post scorer. He finishes well, is a terror on the offensive glass, and is physical on both sides of the ball. He's unselfish, too.

I don't like my big man to strictly play like a small foward. Dirk's post game is decent at best, but still very unimpressive for a 7 foot superstar. I'd honestly take brand over him if dirk wasn't so efficient using the way he plays. 50/40/90 is very impressive, which is the numbers dirk usually hovers around every season. So I can't penalize him too much. Dirk is a good rebounder, good passer, and decent defender. And of course a mismatch nightmare. His versatility gives the mavs a lot of flexibility; thus, their ability to change styles of play over the years (though I gotta knock dirk for something...he doesn't actually allow them to play different styles, he just fits into any style. There's a difference.) Also, Dirk has led his team to massive success for 8 seasons now. And he's pretty clutch. Only vs. golden state did he falter. Every other time in the playoffs, he performed very well imo.

So I'll take Dirk as the better player. But it's pretty close.

I take Elton Brand, without thinking twice.

Dirk is more versatile on O, healthier, beat the Suns

That's BS. Dirk isn't more versatile on O then Brand at all.
Dirk can't post-up to save his life (I mean he's 7 foot tall and he can't even post-up guards!!!), Brand on the other hand is a fuggin post-up monster.
They both have good mid-range J's and comparable passing skills.
Dirk has the significant edge in 3 point shooting, but that's it. And from my PF, I take back-to-the-basket play over 3 point shootin any day of the week.
Elton Brand only had 1 injury hampered season due to a freak accident and has otherwise always been fit, so Dirk doesn't win on health either.
...And beatin the Suns without Amare/Kurt Thomas/Raja Bell (and with Eddie House not fit either) in 6 games isn't impressive at all... The Mavs got got their asses handed to em the year before that when the Suns were at full strength.

Overall Dirk has the slight edge on offense, but EB is lightyears ahead of Dirk on the defensive end, and still has a pretty sick offensive skillset himself.
EB wins on mental as well. Dirk has often choked and disapeared in big games when under pressure (he even admited himself that he sucks @ handling pressure), while Brand has always stepped it up in the big games he's been in so far.
Dirk winning more games over his career doesn't mean shiyt since he's always been surrounded by massive talent. The amount of talent Brand has had on his team has never been anywhere near the level of talent Dirk has had (cuz Clips are prolly the cheapest team in the NBA, while the Mavs have Cuban).

Now that Brand finally has teamates near the quality level of Dirk's teamates, he's MINIMUM gonna be making the 2nd round of the playoffs, so long as the Sixers stay healthy.
Meanwhile Chokewitsky is either gonna miss out on the POs alltogether, or head for his 3rd first round exit by pwnage in a row!
Brand > Dirk
Book me, quote me, sig me!

One point in your argument especially irked me. You said that Dirk is unclutch whereas Brand is clutch.

Where has Brand's "clutchness" been evident? Dirk choked against the Heat and against GSW, but he was hyper clutch in every other playoff series he's been in. Brand has never been said to be clutch so this is the first time I'm hearing that. Brand's only good playoff series that I can remember is the one against PHX in 05-06. However, Brand lost that series whereas Dallas beat that same PHX team with Dirk being by far the most important player in that series. 50 points in game 5 clutch enough for you?

We're also comparing a career winner to a career loser. Dirk hasn't won less than 50 games in a season for the past 8 years I think whereas Brand has only once in his career broken the 50 mark. Brand has only been out of the first round once and you know why? He's only made the playoffs once. That's right. In 9 years in the NBA, Elton Brand has only made the playoffs once and got to the 2nd round that once. Whoopdee freakin doo. Completely unimpressive next to Dirk's record.

Another asinine claim you made was

Overall Dirk has the slight edge on offense,

No, Dirk doesn't have a SLIGHT edge on offense. Dirk averages more points on a similar percentage while creating far more offensive mismatches and being by far the better passer. This is no slight advantage, this is one hell of an overwhelming advantage.

They both have good mid-range J's and comparable passing skills.

Comparable passing skills? That's like saying Steve Nash and Earl Boykins have comparable passing skills. Dirk is at least 2 tiers above EB as a passer, Dirk is widely acknowledged as one of the best passing big men in the game whereas it's not even seen as above average in EB.

but EB is lightyears ahead of Dirk on the defensive end

Sure, Brand is better on D. But Brand is not a game changer on defense a la Garnett or Duncan. Those 2 change the game on defense, making the whole defense better as a whole as witnessed this year with Boston. Brand plays good D but is nowhere near the game changing level. I don't think that besides the PHX series he can be considered a game changer on offense either. He always sticks around about 20ppg. That's OK, but hell lots of players get that. Josh Howard almost averaged the same ppg this season and I don't consider him a game changer. Convesely, Dirk has always been good for 26 ppg when it has been demanded of him [with the exception of the GSW series].

Rebounding is really a push since Dirk averages more in the playoffs and Brand averages more in the regular season.

So I think what it comes down to is do you want a player with game changing offense and average [no, not crappy. Dirk isn't called irk any more for a reason] defense or a player with good defense and good offense? I'd go with the game changer personally.

Also,

...And beatin the Suns without Amare/Kurt Thomas/Raja Bell (and with Eddie House not fit either) in 6 games isn't impressive at all... The Mavs got got their asses handed to em the year before that when the Suns were at full strength.

Those are the same Suns that handed the Clippers' ass to them. If the Suns don't impress you, how exactly does Brand's playoff resume impress you? 1 playoff where he got knocked out by a supposedly crap team. Not brilliant is it? Although I will tell you, those Suns were an extremely dangerous team, they did have Marion and Nash who were at the time a top 5 player and another top 30 player.

Dirk winning more games over his career doesn't mean shiyt since he's always been surrounded by massive talent. The amount of talent Brand has had on his team has never been anywhere near the level of talent Dirk has had (cuz Clips are prolly the cheapest team in the NBA, while the Mavs have Cuban).

Cube's has spent a lot of money sure, but what amazing supporting cast that Brand didn't have? Our second best players in the Mavs' best years has been Josh Howard who had about as much impact as Maggette + Mobley. Terry was about as good as Sam Cassell. Harris wasn't very good yet, back then he was only about as good as Livingston. And then the Clips had Chris Kaman as well whereas we had Dampier. Real fair Center matchup there. So where exactly is this amazing supporting cast because I sure can't see it.

Now that Brand finally has teamates near the quality level of Dirk's teamates, he's MINIMUM gonna be making the 2nd round of the playoffs, so long as the Sixers stay healthy.
Meanwhile Chokewitsky is either gonna miss out on the POs alltogether, or head for his 3rd first round exit by pwnage in a row!
Brand > Dirk
Book me, quote me, sig me!

Chokewitsky? How very creative and mature of you. Well, I'll have you know that "Chokewitsky" is a superior player to EB and that the Mavs are still a better team than the Sixers. The 6ers may make the 2nd round but that will not be because they're better than the Mavs but because the 5th-8th seeds in the East suck majorly. If the 6ers were in the West i doubt they would make the playoffs. This is not me hating on the 6ers, the West is just that tough. As for the 3rd 1st round "pwnage" Dirk is going to suffer, at least he made the playoffs the last 8 seasons. Where has EB been except for a brief cameo in 05-06?