Dr. J vs Kobe Bryant

[Baller 24]

Who do you take in their prime?

And does or did Kobe pass the Doc all time?

[ronnymac2]

I think I'd take Kobe's prime. All time? Erving still has Bryant beat for me. Just by a bit, and I expect Bryant to pass him some time soon, but for now, Erving is right ahead of Bryant. A title or 2 as a first option would put Kobe ahead probably.

[thegreatblaze]

I'll take Kobe.

I hate to say it, but I've always thought Doc J was a tad on the overrated side, IMO.

[Baller 24]

Dr. J played a couple of his years in the ABA. Doc's first year in the NBA he got to the finals, only to lose to Walton's Blazers, not to mention Dr. J didn't have nearly the amount of talent Kobe has ever had going to the finals. And what I found awesome was how efficient of a scorer Dr. J was (yes a more effeicent scorer than even Kobe!) If someone can make a switch from the ABA to the NBA scoring 20-26ppg on 50% FG shooting is amazing. Also Dr. J had terrific rebounder, pocket picker, blocker, and a above average play maker. He didn't have quite the 3 pt shot, but when your putting up stats like him and scoring at such a high efficient rate you really don't need one.

Also Dr J wasn't known as a premier defender, but he is one of the top defenders, as he was constantly in the top of the league for defensive winshares.

[TMACFORMVP]

I'll take Kobe.

I hate to say it, but I've always thought Doc J was a tad on the overrated side, IMO.

Erving was more underrated than overrated IMO, the only thing sometimes people associate him with is his dunking, and fail to realize the type of leader and all around player that he was.

His offensive efficiency was what was so amazing about him. Career average of over 24 points per game on over 50% with a max year of 54% and his lowest year being 47% which happened to be the last year of his career. He was a great rebounder (especially if your counting ABA where he was nearly 12 boards per game for a 5 year peak) and an underrated play-maker. He didn't put up the gaudy assist totals but he was consistently near five assists per game and a very unselfish player. Was a menace in the passing lanes and a terrific shot-blocker, once led the league in DWS and has a career 100 dTRG rating with multiple seasons under 100.

Saying all this, I think Kobe's peak (right now) was better than the Docter's, but career wise I'd probably agree with ronny that I think Erving has a greater legacy at this point just because for what he did for the game in terms of ABA/NBA but Kobe should pass him up pretty soon.

[ronnymac2]

Dr. J played a couple of his years in the ABA. Doc's first year in the NBA he got to the finals, only to lose to Walton's Blazers, not to mention Dr. J didn't have nearly the amount of talent Kobe has ever had going to the finals. And what I found awesome was how efficient of a scorer Dr. J was (yes a more effeicent scorer than even Kobe!) If someone can make a switch from the ABA to the NBA scoring 20-26ppg on 50% FG shooting is amazing. Also Dr. J had terrific rebounder, pocket picker, blocker, and a above average play maker. He didn't have quite the 3 pt shot, but when your putting up stats like him and scoring at such a high efficient rate you really don't need one.

Also Dr J wasn't known as a premier defender, but he is one of the top defenders, as he was constantly in the top of the league for defensive winshares.

Yea, his great driving game and midrange game def negate any shortcomings he had on his range. He's everything a small foward should be.

I kinda disagree with you saying he didn't have as much talent , at least on the 1977 team. He had George Mcginnis, World B. Free, caldwell jones and doug collins on those teams. Those guys were really good. ( I am comparing that team to the 2008 team, not the shaq teams.) Erving did, however, fit in seemlessly with like, 3 other 20 point scorers, because he was extremely effective without the ball, efficient, and unselfish. So he should be credited for that, too.

[TrueLAfan]

Doctor J played 5 startlingly brilliant years in the ABA. His 1976 season, which included playing every game in the regular season and winning the MVP as he put up these numbers

27.3 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.8 bpg, .507 fg%, .801 ft%, .330 3p%

...and then, amazingly, finding an even higher gear in the playoffs as he led his team to the title...

34.7 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, 2.0 spg, 2.0 bpg, .533 fg%, .804 ft%, .286 3p%

...could well be the greatest season of all time for any player. The difference between Dr. J and Kobe isn't huge--it's the difference between a borderline top 10 player and a top 15-20 player--but I can't think of a single general area where you rank Kobe ahead. Dr. J has him in peak, longetivity, and intangibles. (Edit...Those are what I mean by "general area(s)." And I think Kobe Bryant is a terrific player...this comparison shows, more than anything, how hard it will be for him to move up on the All-Time lists from where he's at.)

[jeahwe]

Kobe is much better clutch player, better in defense and is much better shooter.
Also his last season (and IMO previous with Shaq) prove that he have very strong intangibles.

BTW, Erving have plenty of telant in his 76ers teams.

[Point forward]

The problem with Doc's Sixers teams was (for most of the time) Doc and McGinnis were less than the sum of their parts. In Darryl Dawkins' book "Chocolate Thunder", DD says that the Sixers team was evenly split between the guys who loved Doc (Caldwell Jones, Steve Mix, Doug Collins) and the guys who loved Mac (Joe Bryant, Henry Bibby, Mike Dunleavy Sr), and there was always friction -- not really between Doc and Mac, but between the partisans of both. Also, coaches Gene Shue and Billy Cunningham are no way in the same league of a GOAT guy like Phil Jackson.

I don't know how reliable a guy like Dawkins is, but seeing how honest, pull-no-punches and warts-and-all his book is (there are pretty bleak chapters about empty sex and drug abuse in it), I tend to believe him.

[LakerLegend]

Doctor J played 5 startlingly brilliant years in the ABA. His 1976 season, which included playing every game in the regular season and winning the MVP as he put up these numbers

27.3 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.8 bpg, .507 fg%, .801 ft%, .330 3p%

...and then, amazingly, finding an even higher gear in the playoffs as he led his team to the title...

34.7 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, 2.0 spg, 2.0 bpg, .533 fg%, .804 ft%, .286 3p%

...could well be the greatest season of all time for any player. The difference between Dr. J and Kobe isn't huge--it's the difference between a borderline top 10 player and a top 15-20 player--but I can't think of a single general area where you rank Kobe ahead. Dr. J has him in peak, longetivity, and intangibles.

Everyone's stats were higher in the ABA. There were tons of stars who put up ridiclous numbers in the ABA that went down drastically after the leagues merged due to better competition. It was basically due to extreme dilution with two leagues competing for talent.

[tkb]

And what I found awesome was how efficient of a scorer Dr. J was (yes a more effeicent scorer than even Kobe!).

Kobe has been more efficient the last 2 season's than Dr J ever was as a scorer, and their career efficiency is dead even. Peak Kobe is a more efficient scorer.

[TrueLAfan]

Kobe has been more efficient the last 2 season's than Dr J ever was as a scorer, and their career efficiency is dead even. Peak Kobe is a more efficient scorer.

Actually, Erving still has higher eFG% and TS% than Kobe—both peak and career. If you're referring to points per shot attempt, Erving's 1982 season is virtually identical to Kobe's best (2007) season, so close you have to go to several decimal points to separate them meaningfully.

Kobe 1.38304
Dr. J 1.38235

So that area is, at best for Kobe, a draw. Peak Kobe may score more, but not more efficiently.

Everyone's stats were higher in the ABA. There were tons of stars who put up ridiclous numbers in the ABA that went down drastically after the leagues merged due to better competition. It was basically due to extreme dilution with two leagues competing for talent.

Not true at all. The league numbers between the ABA and Nba were virtually identical from 1972-6

ABA—110.6 ppg, 49.6 rpg, 23.3 apg
NBA—106.1 ppg, 48.8 rpg, 24.1 apg

So there were no “ridiculous” numbers in the ABA...no more than in the NBA at the time. And since no one is telling Kareem or Bob McAdoo or Dave Cowens that their numbers were inflated from 1972-6, nobody can really say it to Doc either. And there have been analyses done (one by me) which show that the quality of overall play in the NBA/ABA, based on the average starter, was not lower in pre-merger years.

Kobe is much better clutch player, better in defense and is much better shooter.

Well, we've dispensed with the shooting idea. Kobe may be a better defender...although this is an area where Doctor J is very underrated and Kobe is somewhat overrated.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Julius Erving wasn't a great, great clutch/playoff performer...but it wasn't in the ABA or NBA. His playoff averages in his first 11 years, when he played 140 playoff games are

26.6 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.8 spg, 1.8 bpg, .507 fg%

In the finals, he was just as good. I don't have the boxes or numbers for his ABA years, but in the NBA, his finals numbers are:

25.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 4.6 apg, 2.0 spg, 1.7 bpg, .523 fg%

That's not counting his ABA finals appearances; his finals number are almost certainly better than his overall playoff numbers. No matter how you slice it, Julius Erving was a great playoff performer. The Secret Weapon (a poster here) did a statistical analysis of Kobe's playoff play and it showed a fairly substantial dropoff in productivity per court time. While I think Kobe is better than the pure numbers in that regard, I've not no reason to believe he's better/more clutch than Julius Erving was in the playoffs—quite the opposite.

[Malinhion]

I'll take Erving.

Kobe's best assets are his explosive scoring and his defense.

Dr. J's scoring was not as explosive, but he was able to be the #1 option, and he was more consistent and efficient in doing so. While Kobe might be the best offensive player in the game right now, he did not revolutionize offense in the way that the greats do (and as Dr. J has). Kobe has more range and a better skillset for a jumpshooter, but on raw effectiveness I'll take the doctor.

On defense Dr. J is one of the more underrated defenders. He was always a good man-up player, who racked up boatloads of steals. Kobe always makes All-D teams, but it doesn't mean much. There isn't much in the way of competition at the guard spots on those teams. Bryant gets by on reputation, but even Tex Winter has said that he has problems stemming from his effort on the other end. Kobe's defense is great when he wants it to be, but he hasn't really put in the effort on both ends since Shaq left. I'll definitely take Erving's defense, too.

[Baller 24]

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Malinhion and TLA, both are right about his defense being underrated. His defensive winshares were terrific in both the ABA and NBA, he wasn't as acknowledged as Kobe on defense, but was far from being a liability.

[tkb]

Kobe has been more efficient the last 2 season's than Dr J ever was as a scorer, and their career efficiency is dead even. Peak Kobe is a more efficient scorer.

Actually, Erving still has higher eFG% and TS% than Kobe—both peak and career. If you're referring to points per shot attempt, Erving's 1982 season is virtually identical to Kobe's best (2007) season, so close you have to go to several decimal points to separate them meaningfully.

Kobe 1.38304
Dr. J 1.38235

So that area is, at best for Kobe, a draw. Peak Kobe may score more, but not more efficiently.

Kobe TSP and PPG last 2 years:
.580 / 31.6
.576 / 28.3

Dr J TSP and PPG during prime:
.545 / 27.3 (ABA)
.547 / 31.9 (ABA)
.562 / 27.4 (ABA)
.565 / 27.9 (ABA)
.569 / 29.3 (ABA)
Then he had 3 down years in the NBA, and then 3 solid years again of:
.568 / 26.9
.572 / 24.6
.593 / 24.4

I have to admit I missed the .593 season when I looked through his player profile, but I don't think I was off when I said that prime Kobe is more efficient since Dr J never was as efficient when he was a high volume shooter. If Kobe drops his scoring down to 25ish his efficiency will probably improve from his .575-.580 he currently plays at.

So yeah, I'll still state that peak Kobe will score more efficiently than peak Dr J, and the stats back that up IMO.

[jeahwe]

Kobe is much better clutch player, better in defense and is much better shooter.

Well, we've dispensed with the shooting idea. Kobe may be a better defender...although this is an area where Doctor J is very underrated and Kobe is somewhat overrated.

I don't argue that Erving was more efficient, but my statement is: Kobe is better shooter.
I see it that way - Dr J was more a slasher than Kobe, play much more in the paint. Kobe have more range (what is obvious) and IMO shoot more and better from midrange. But it's just “IMO”, because we don't have synergy stats or from nba.com hotzones, which will show us how Erving shoot from midrange. But I know for sure (it could be checked via hotzones or synergy) that Bryant midrange jumper is at ~ that same level as the best midrange shooters today (Rip, Allen, Redd, Wade).

re: clutch.
How many clutch games in playoff Dr J had? I know overall stats, but could you name his clutch shoots, steals, etc?

re: defense
I agree that Kobe is overrated as defender (his problem is that he don't play all games at the same intensity level), but still is better than Dr J ever was.

[TrueLAfan]

Sorry tkb, but I'm just not buying it. You can argue that, technically, Kobe's TS% in his top two (last two) seasons is equal to Dr. J's peak. (Even though it's not...Erving's TS% in 1980-2 is .5822; Kobe's in 2006-8 is .5780.) But Dr. J has four seasons higher than Kobe's next best season, and two more higher than Kobe's best season after that. That's playing in an era where fewer threes were taken and where use of the three was interrupted...look at Dr. J's last three years in the ABA, and imagine what he would have been like if he had been able to continue to put up the long ball. Then there's the hand check/fouls issue...the amount of fouls called, as a whole, in the ABA, is markedly lower than in the modern game.

1974 ABA--FTA every 3.67 FGA
1975 ABA--FTA every 3.72 FGA
1976 ABA--FTA every 3.45 FGA
...
2006 NBA—FTA every 3.00 FGA
2006 NBA—FTA every 3.06 FGA
2006 NBA—FTA every 3.27 FGA

It's around a 15% difference overall. There are factors you can cite in Kobe's favor...but there are more you can cite for Doc, and he's ahead in the first place.

(btw..about the high volume...check out the mpg. You'll find that the early 80s Dr. J was scoring about 5-7% less than Kobe during his court tme; a pretty small difference.)

I don't argue that Erving was more efficient, but my statement is: Kobe is better shooter.
I see it that way - Dr J was more a slasher than Kobe, play much more in the paint. Kobe have more range (what is obvious) and IMO shoot more and better from midrange. But it's just “IMO”, because we don't have synergy stats or from nba.com hotzones, which will show us how Erving shoot from midrange. But I know for sure (it could be checked via hotzones or synergy) that Bryant midrange jumper is at ~ that same level as the best midrange shooters today (Rip, Allen, Redd, Wade).

re: clutch.
How many clutch games in playoff Dr J had? I know overall stats, but could you name his clutch shoots, steals, etc?

Actually, you can take threes out of the equation for Doc and Kobe and you find this

Kobe Bryant--.480 FG%
Julius Erving--.510 FG%

which leads me to think that Dr. J's midrange game was just as good as Kobe's, if not better. The idea that Dr. J was more of a slasher is questionable. First...like Dr. J, a significant chunk of Kobe's popularity and fame is based on his over the rim play. And since Kobe draws more fouls and scored a higher percentage of his points at the line (which is the only reason he's even close at times in TS%), I'm having a hard time thinking he's driving to the hoop and playing in the paint less than Erving. So while I'd agree Kobe has more range (with the caveat mentioned above that the three was pulled from Julius Erving just when he was getting comfortable with it and good at it), I don't think you can say Kobe has a better midrange game. The midrange game of the 70s and 80s NBA was, in general, more developed than it is now. Even if Kobe is among the better players in terms of his midrange shot today, that's not a compelling argument that he's better from there than Julius Erving.

Hard to choose a “best” or “most clutch” playoff moment for Erving. The fallaway jumper at the buzzer to win game 3 of the semis against Kentucky in 1973? The block on Artis Gilmore (you are reading that correctly) at the beginning of the fourth quarter of game 4 when Kentucky was threatening a comeback? The last second shot to win game one of the ABA finals in 1976? The 39 ppg average in that series? The 40 point outburst in a desperate attempt to stave off a loss in game six in 1977? (This was after scoring 37 in the previous game.) The amazing floating-behind-the-backboard shot in game 4 in 1980, which keyed a 10-0 run and a win? The finals game 4 steal and breakaway dunk to tie the game at 106 in 1982? Or the three point play he converted on the next Sixers possession in that game? Or the one hander he scored over Magic after that, making it 111-107 with 24 seconds left and effectively putting the game out of reach...the game that finally brought him the NBA championship? Pick a clutch moment.

The biggest difference—and the one that Kobe will not and cannot make up, IMO—is the intangibles issue. When the Sixers won the title, Moses Malone...not exactly a nice or talkative sort of guy, said something like, “We had to win it for Doc.” Consider that Moses is talking about a guy who already had two ABA titles...and that he himself did not have a ring. Erving inspired a level of loyalty and dedication among teammates that is among the highest of all time. He's in the super elite group with guys like Russell and Magic and West and Bird in that way. If you were around at the time, you know what I mean. Julius Erving was the most respected NBA player as a person and teammate of his era. For Kobe Bryant to be considered better than Doctor J, he'll have to be much better on paper to make for that difference in intangibles...and that is a tall, tall order.

[Baller 24]

TLA, that was one hell of a post lol, I like what you said about the intangibles. I downloaded the finals in .avi format when he met Walton's Blazers. And it was one hell of a series, and that was his first season in the NBA, he was nearly unstoppable throughout the playoffs, sure he had those players, but he was the difference that made his team from being lottery bound to great.

[TMACFORMVP]

Great post True. End the thread right there.

Or the one hander he scored over Magic after that, making it 111-107 with 24 seconds left and effectively putting the game out of reach...the game that finally brought him the NBA championship?

I remember watching this game and the post game interviews and it was only fitting that Erving was the one to put the ice on the game in the closing minutes to give the Sixers the championship. Unfortunately this is one of the only few games that I've seen of Erving, really wish I could watch some more especially from his ABA days.

[kooldude]

TrueLAfan,

Dr. J's best TS% yrs, the league avg was around the 48.5% range while Kobe's best TS% yrs, the league were in the 45.5%. Isn't that significant in the comparison when Dr. J's era clearly shot better as a whole?

Didn't you say that the standard for shooting efficiency is different for a 40PPG scorer and a 30PPG scorer? If Kobe scored more in an era of slower pace, why should he be held to the same criteria as a lower volume scorer who had more scoring opportunities? You did say that efficiency drops with more volume. (I think in a post a while back)

Can you tell me how/why Dr. J was able to get 15 boards in his rookie yr and not get even close to 10 boards after he entered the NBA?