What did Vince Carter do?

[Malinhion]

Agreed, but in a similair vein I don't think Kobe or McGrady are point forwards. I think they are pure shooting guards, first and foremost.

[tsherkin]

Agreed, but in a similair vein I don't think Kobe or McGrady are point forwards. I think they are pure shooting guards, first and foremost.

Definitively not true. Tracy McGrady played a LOT of small forward in both Orlando and in his first years in Houston (especially the latter). You may choose to call him something other than a point forward when he's playing the 2, of course, but then he's a point guard. The Magic certainly used him in the true point guard's role on many occasions over the course of his time there.

Kobe is explicitly a 2/3; Phil Jackson constantly harps on the fact that Kobe is better in the triangle at the 3 than at the 2 because it makes him more involved as a playmaker and gives him better looks at the basket, etc, etc.

Kobe and T-Mac aren't precisely "point forwards" because unlike Pippen and Hill, they're not pure position players but they are both big ball-handling guards with a very clear separation from the rest of the crop at their positions in terms of ball-handling and playmaking. They both can and do play the 3 on a fairly regular basis (Kobe's split was 60/20% of team minutes last year, McGrady 40/19/1, including some time at the 4).

Neither of them plays HUGE minutes there (T-Mac not anymore, anyway) but still significant and regular rotations.

[tha_rock220]

tha_rock, if you're talking about 99-00, you're wrong. His second season in the league was almost mythical in his ability; he did pretty much everything right that year except fade hard against physical defenses. He was aggressive as Hell all year long, and through most of 00-01 as well, into the playoffs. Those two years were his best and he was living up to his potential, moving towards it. He wasn't at even his physical prime, nevermind his player's prime, so you can't expect him to have magically been a 32-ppg monster those years. He did a brilliant job with a fairly unimpressive supporting cast in those years.

Come on man, can you honestly tell me Vince wasn't already falling in love with his jumper his 2nd season. I know he was still dropping those vicious dunks, but the "he's a wienie" label was already sticking with basketball fans here in Houston. You're from Canada though, so I'm sure you saw him more than me.

I didn't expect him to magically turn into a 32ppg monster back then. I said he should have had 3 or 4 seasons in his career where he approached(possibly surpassed) 30ppg.

Remember too that prior to 04-05, the rules made it EXTREMELY hard to average more than 8 FTA/g as a wing. That's why the seasons T-Mac and Pierce posted at 9+ FTA/g were so impressive. Vince at about 7 FTA/g (6.7, 6.8) was still doing a very good job. At he DID approach 30 ppg; he posted 27.6 ppg in 00-01.

True, it was still a big man's league back then, but ball dominant guards on teams without big men(which is what Carter was) like Stackhouse and Iverson managed to average 9+ ft's when Vince was in his first few seasons. Even Kobe who had to defer to Shaq and had him clogging the middle was able to get a comparable number of ft attempts.

Moreover, he IS a very talented distributor; he's not a point forward but he's a 4-5 apg player and that's quite good.

I didn't say he wasn't a talented distributor. Read what I said. "Don't hold it against him for not being a top distributor". In fact, the only guys I mentioned as being better than him were wings well known for their ability to set up their teammtes.

[tsherkin]

Come on man, can you honestly tell me Vince wasn't already falling in love with his jumper his 2nd season. I know he was still dropping those vicious dunks, but the "he's a wienie" label was already sticking with basketball fans here in Houston. You're from Canada though, so I'm sure you saw him more than me.

He only first developed his jumper in the off-season before his second season; his second season was his first 20+ ppg season... of course he was going to take more jumpers when he's taking 21 shots a game, that's just a function of the way the game works. It's true of Kobe, it was true of Jordan, it's true of T-Mac and Lebron and everyone else who takes that many shots as a wing scorer. He actually set what was at the time his career-high in FTA/g (6.7), though it being his second season, that's not so meaningful. Then, in his third season, he took 1.4 more shots per game while maintaing his 6.7 FTA/g.

His first three seasons, there weren't so many problems. It was after the '01 series against the Sixers when he shot so well from downtown in some games and with the continued influence of Lenny 'I have no balls' Wilkens that he began to get softer (also, the influence from the injuries began to accrue as well, prompting a legitimate shift towards more jumpers).

I didn't expect him to magically turn into a 32ppg monster back then. I said he should have had 3 or 4 seasons in his career where he approached(possibly surpassed) 30ppg.

Yeah but you were specifically referencing those seasons, which is unfair. My point is he did approach 30 ppg before his injuries took him out and since many of them were legitimate and he was, at times, rushed back, there's truth behind his need to rely more on the jumper. And there's also truth to him getting gypped by a lot of the refs early in his career because he wasn't consistently sticking with the drive after his third season.

True, it was still a big man's league back then, but ball dominant guards on teams without big men(which is what Carter was) like Stackhouse and Iverson managed to average 9+ ft's when Vince was in his first few seasons. Even Kobe who had to defer to Shaq and had him clogging the middle was able to get a comparable number of ft attempts.

Stackhouse also took 24 shots the one year he averaged 10+ FTA/g, though he took under 18 the year before. He was, of course, also playing alongside Grant Hill and that made it easier to get single coverage for an iso drive.

I didn't say he wasn't a talented distributor. Read what I said. "Don't hold it against him for not being a top distributor". In fact, the only guys I mentioned as being better than him were wings well known for their ability to set up their teammtes.

I know, I wasn't attacking you, I was saying he IS a top distributor at the two, especially since moving to New Jersey. He's averaged about 5 apg since he was traded to the Nets. He's not known for it as much as T-Mac or Kobe but he's also right near their usual seasonal average in APG, give or take 0.3 to 0.5 apg and with some exceptional seasons they had above that level. He just doesn't get the pub for it because he's got Anti-Vince stigma to handle.

[TdotWattz]

Raptor fans will kill anyone that leaves....T-Mac gets the boos too when he comes into town...
I hope they boo Chuck Swirsky when the Bulls come into town...
If Bosh leaves, the fans will have no love for him either

Vince is going to the hall of fame, too bad its not in a Raptors uniform

[The Main Event]

Vince Carter;

A) Validated the Toronto Rators as a household name by putting asses in seats and was an ambassador for basketball. Without him we could have easily followed the Vancouver Grizzlies to a similar fate.
B) Became unhappy with Raptor management and didn't appear to be giving it his all.
C) PUBLICALLY admitted that he wasn't always giving it his all. (someone get this man a PR advisor)
D) Began to milk injuries and mastered the classic "Wince" look.
E) By not giving it his all and by milking injuries he lowered his stock so low that it appeared that he was trying to get back at Raps management.

This is why Toronto has such a love/hate relationship for Vince Quitter err Carter.

[tsherkin]

Raptor fans will kill anyone that leaves....T-Mac gets the boos too when he comes into town...
I hope they boo Chuck Swirsky when the Bulls come into town...
If Bosh leaves, the fans will have no love for him either

Vince is going to the hall of fame, too bad its not in a Raptors uniform

T-Mac, much as I still enjoy him as a player, deserves the boos he gets in Toronto (though he feeds off of them) for bolting from our town because we didn't want to give him an unreasonable contract based on his performance to that point in time (he was asking for a max deal). He wasn't a huge fan of Canada and it's been said that he wanted "out of his cousin's shadow so he could be the man," and all that. Meanwhile, Vince didn't want to be the Man, he would have stepped aside for T-Mac to shine, unfortunately. THAT would have been a crazy duo.

T-Mac and Vince both had messy departures from the city and it is no surprise the fans are not pleased with them when they return. Bosh has been nothing but a model citizen who tries very hard. If and when he leaves, unless he like rapes David Miller's daughter, I think it will be mostly amicable.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'm not sure fans will ever put the expectations on Bosh that they put on Carter either, which would also mean a lot if Bosh left.

[tsherkin]

Very true; Bosh is pretty much already at his peak anyway, there's not much farther up he can go since he's not really improving as a rebounder or a scorer anymore. He'll look better defensively this year, though.

[Malinhion]

Definitively not true. Tracy McGrady played a LOT of small forward in both Orlando and in his first years in Houston (especially the latter). You may choose to call him something other than a point forward when he's playing the 2, of course, but then he's a point guard. The Magic certainly used him in the true point guard's role on many occasions over the course of his time there.

McGrady hasn't come within 20 feet of the basket in three years. There is no way I am calling him a point forward. He doesn't slash like a guard, and his only penetration comes off the p'n'r. He doesn't post up in the paint like a forward. He just hovers around the three point line, creating shots on the perimeter. In virtue of this, he's one of the best post-entry and outside-in passers in the NBA today. But there's hardly an ounce of forward left in him. In the past two years, his assist totals have gotten much better. Looking back at his numbers earlier in his career, though, its obvious that he was not a point forward. He was used as a scorer, first and foremost. And his primary method of scoring was by shooting. It still is, and he's got one of the league's worse TS% because of it. But that doesn't change his style.

I used to think T-Mac was a point forward. He's not. I guess you can call him one, but really the guy is a shooter. His game is developing so that he's a better playmaker, but stylistically he is a shooting guard.

Kobe is explicitly a 2/3; Phil Jackson constantly harps on the fact that Kobe is better in the triangle at the 3 than at the 2 because it makes him more involved as a playmaker and gives him better looks at the basket, etc, etc.

Kobe is also primarily a shooter. That makes him a shooting guard. He has the widest array of jumpshot-creating moves in the NBA. His entire game is centered around the triple threat and posting up. His jab-step is deadly. And he's posting up to take fades, not hookshots. Kobe is deadly from long range. But all this stuff points back to one thing: shooting. He is literally a shooting guard. The triangle just makes it look a little different.

Both guys are dynamic enough talents to be labeled "swingmen." So basically they do everything. Make plays, rebound, score, play good man defense, etc. But any shooting guard in the league is supposed to have these varied talents. That's why it's the deepest position in the whole NBA. Rarely do you have a talented enough scorer that they can really get by without doing much else. Are Michael Redd and Rip Hamilton the only two pure shooting guards in the NBA? No. They're just the least dynamic.

[TdotWattz]

Very true; Bosh is pretty much already at his peak anyway, there's not much farther up he can go since he's not really improving as a rebounder or a scorer anymore. He'll look better defensively this year, though.

Thats crazy, he is not at his peak already. He is a better shooter he was last year than when he first came in the league and will also improve this year, you seen that with his 3 point shots randomly and the fact that he has the confidence to shoot them. With the knowledge that he has a legit big behind him, he will be more aggressive and you will see even more improvement this year, on top of that the confidence that he will gain every year in being the leader of a team is almost immeasurable. Theres no reason to believe why he wont be the next KG

[Harry Palmer]

For the kazillionth time:

Vince Carter did NOT admit to dogging it to get traded, or during that period at all.

When asked if he had always given it his all, he replied that, before the injuries...in years past...he hadn't realized how much work it took, because things came so easily to him, and that since the injuries he had had to work a lot harder.

In other words, he 'admitted' to exactly the opposite of the what the paranoiacs keep throwing out there, that in fact, the period when he, in retrospect, felt he could have worked harder was the earlier years, the years when he was the league's darling, and because the game had come o easily to him, he hadn't realized how much more he could have been doing, but that since then...ie, specifically during the period in question...he had worked much harder.

Here is the exact quote in response to the question about whether he had always worked his hardest, with the time-related comments in bold:

“In years past, no,” said Carter... “I was fortunate to have the talent … you get spoiled when you’re able to do a lot of things. You see that you don’t have to work at it. Now, with the all the injuries, I have to work harder. I’m a little hungrier."

It's crystal clear he was referring to the period BEFORE his injuries, years before the alleged 'dogging' it period, and yet people keep trying to use this in the exact opposite context, and it seems to me it must be done willfully.

He specifically did NOT admit to dogging it to get traded. He specifically did NOT admit to effort being the cause for his relatively poor play in the later years. He specifically said the exact opposite, that his effort was, in retrospect, an issue when he was younger and everything came so easily, but that since then he had had to work harder and be 'hungrier'.

I can't believe the duration of this completely inverse misunderstanding, but I know it is primarily fueled by bitter Raps fans who absolutely need to believe the opposite of the truth here.

All that said, I agree with those who have said Carter's off-season/off-court effort was the main issue. On court, I've always felt that his effort was actually a non-issue, but his offseason effort has always been, with the possible exception of after his rookie season and maybe in the past year or so, an major issue. Had he put the work into his body that others do, he could have been something incredible, and arguably he wouldn't have had the injury issues that eroded his natural talent.

[magicfan4life05]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7yb_QwZ ... re=related

[tsherkin]

Thats crazy, he is not at his peak already. He is a better shooter he was last year than when he first came in the league and will also improve this year, you seen that with his 3 point shots randomly and the fact that he has the confidence to shoot them. With the knowledge that he has a legit big behind him, he will be more aggressive and you will see even more improvement this year, on top of that the confidence that he will gain every year in being the leader of a team is almost immeasurable. Theres no reason to believe why he wont be the next KG

As a scorer, man, as a scorer. Every time he takes a three this year, I'm going to send him dog crap in a brown paper bag, he should never take those, but that's not a big issue.

My point is that he's not a volume scorer, he's a pretty steady 22-24 ppg guy... which is outstanding, I love having him on our team, especially now that he's a pure 4 again except when JO is off the floor and he's on.

But he's not a perennial 26+ ppg scorer, not a dominant scorer. He's a second-star caliber offensive weapon and that's what I mean when I say he's peaked, in that regard, as a scorer.

He will NEVER be the next KG; he's not as good a rebounder, passer or defender and is too late into his career to ever turn into the giant "I broke Larry Bird's record for consecutive 20/10/5 seasons" monster that was Garnett.

McGrady hasn't come within 20 feet of the basket in three years. There is no way I am calling him a point forward. He doesn't slash like a guard, and his only penetration comes off the p'n'r. He doesn't post up in the paint like a forward. He just hovers around the three point line, creating shots on the perimeter. In virtue of this, he's one of the best post-entry and outside-in passers in the NBA today. But there's hardly an ounce of forward left in him. In the past two years, his assist totals have gotten much better. Looking back at his numbers earlier in his career, though, its obvious that he was not a point forward. He was used as a scorer, first and foremost. And his primary method of scoring was by shooting. It still is, and he's got one of the league's worse TS% because of it. But that doesn't change his style.

Point forwards don't need to go near the basket, they're ball-handling and are therefore definitively often found far AWAY from the rim. JVG never put together a cogent offense that made use of McGrady in an intelligent manner because he's always been a terrible offensive coach. Last year, he had big-time troubles with his shot and with injuries, had little lift, little explosion, it's not surprising that he can't get to his spots anymore but Yao played like 27 games and the team didn't have a competent scoring threat around T-Mac when Yao went down, just chippie pieces that pulled together for a super-impressive streak won on heart, fumes and donuts.

In Adelman's offense after a season of practice and another full training camp, with luck and some health, you'll see it again. Never like what he did in 02-03 but you'll see him play properly again.

And again, him being away from the basket doesn't take away from him being 6'9 and handling the ball all over the floor, occasionally guarding SFs and PFs and occasionally running as the 3 and 4 in the smaller lineups that Adelman was obliged to use without Yao.

Kobe is also primarily a shooter. That makes him a shooting guard. He has the widest array of jumpshot-creating moves in the NBA. His entire game is centered around the triple threat and posting up. His jab-step is deadly. And he's posting up to take fades, not hookshots. Kobe is deadly from long range. But all this stuff points back to one thing: shooting. He is literally a shooting guard. The triangle just makes it look a little different.

The definition of a player as a shooting guard by the fact that he shoots is dumb; what the Hell was Rick Barry, then? Definitively a small forward. What about Lebron James? Definitively a small forward these days but he still shoots a lot from outside.

Kobe Bryant has always been primarily a shooting guard, to be sure, but he plays a fair bit of small forward and is also the most notable POST-SCORING wing player in the league. It doesn't matter if he's taking hook shots or fades... what did you call Dominique Wilkins and Bernard King?

Small freaking forwards, just like Alex English. King and 'Nique favored bump-and-fling fadeaways from the high left block but were still small forwards and English was a big-time wing iso and perimeter shooting guy but he was clearly still a swing forward.

Again, Kobe is recognizably a shooting guard more often than not, this is indisputable, but your definition is crap and Kobe (even according to himself and his coach) plays the 3 regularly. Just like McGrady.

Are Michael Redd and Rip Hamilton the only two pure shooting guards in the NBA? No. They're just the least dynamic.

But again, Kobe and T-Mac are DEFINITIVELY not "pure" 2s because not only do they occasionally fill the offensive roles of a 3, they also GUARD small forwards from time to time. If nothing else, that shatters this notion of "pure" positionality.

[tsherkin]

Just to touch on Harry Palmer's post...

Vince's last season as a Raptor was Sam Mitchell's first, and he was intent on setting a tone in his locker room for his team. Super hard work, lots of effort, etc. Vince didn't get plays run for him and when he showed up with his traditional token defensive effort, Mitchell started benching him in fourth quarters and writing him out of the offense.

His statistical nose-dive is more a result of butting heads with the n00b coach than any actual moments of active sabotage or really "dogging it." It's a given that he mailed it in at some point in the season but that's not something for which you can really hammer him; he was getting something like 8 fewer minutes per-game than his career average and only 15 shots a game (about 5 under his career average) AND he wasn't shooting well because the looks he was getting were predominantly jumpers (77% of his attempts were jumpers) and it wasn't by his own design for a change.

To whit, even in a bad year like this past season, Vince's jumper percentage is only about 67%, so that was definitely an anomalous season. He also shot about 69% from the line, which didn't help.

So yeah, he looked like corn-filled poop but it wasn't 100% his fault, or realistically even 50% his fault.

[Mad Balla 15]

Just to touch on Harry Palmer's post...

Vince's last season as a Raptor was Sam Mitchell's first, and he was intent on setting a tone in his locker room for his team. Super hard work, lots of effort, etc. Vince didn't get plays run for him and when he showed up with his traditional token defensive effort, Mitchell started benching him in fourth quarters and writing him out of the offense.

His statistical nose-dive is more a result of butting heads with the n00b coach than any actual moments of active sabotage or really "dogging it." It's a given that he mailed it in at some point in the season but that's not something for which you can really hammer him; he was getting something like 8 fewer minutes per-game than his career average and only 15 shots a game (about 5 under his career average) AND he wasn't shooting well because the looks he was getting were predominantly jumpers (77% of his attempts were jumpers) and it wasn't by his own design for a change.

To whit, even in a bad year like this past season, Vince's jumper percentage is only about 67%, so that was definitely an anomalous season. He also shot about 69% from the line, which didn't help.

So yeah, he looked like corn-filled poop but it wasn't 100% his fault, or realistically even 50% his fault.

Agreed completely.

[jvcn15]

Just to touch on Harry Palmer's post...

Vince's last season as a Raptor was Sam Mitchell's first, and he was intent on setting a tone in his locker room for his team. Super hard work, lots of effort, etc. Vince didn't get plays run for him and when he showed up with his traditional token defensive effort, Mitchell started benching him in fourth quarters and writing him out of the offense.

His statistical nose-dive is more a result of butting heads with the n00b coach than any actual moments of active sabotage or really "dogging it." It's a given that he mailed it in at some point in the season but that's not something for which you can really hammer him; he was getting something like 8 fewer minutes per-game than his career average and only 15 shots a game (about 5 under his career average) AND he wasn't shooting well because the looks he was getting were predominantly jumpers (77% of his attempts were jumpers) and it wasn't by his own design for a change.

To whit, even in a bad year like this past season, Vince's jumper percentage is only about 67%, so that was definitely an anomalous season. He also shot about 69% from the line, which didn't help.

So yeah, he looked like corn-filled poop but it wasn't 100% his fault, or realistically even 50% his fault.

Thank you for actually knowing what you're talking about in regards to Vince leaving Toronto. I find it mind boggling sometimes that people simply use his statistical drop-off and a statement taken out of context to justify their stance that Vince purposefully lowered his trade value in order to sabotage the team. Nevermind taking what you said into consideration. Obviously, he's not blameless, I'm definately not saying that, but there were a lot of other factors that played into his lack of production.

I was looking for an article on it, but came up empty, but I'm sure it happened. Maybe tsherkin, you can confirm...but I remember distinctly, that Mitchell had put Vince so far out of the offense/gameplan, and Rafer's ego was at an all-time high, that Vince actually offered to come off the bench and play with the even scrubbier second unit.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, didn't most Raptor fans and even the media want Vince traded before he even asked for it? Let's speak of his trade demand too...he did it in the off-season, did it quietly behind closed doors, didn't throw any teammates under the bus, never ever spoke bad of the city or its fans (even after the trade), and didn't demand to go to a contending/specific team wanting only a change of scenery (Nets were going nowhere before Vince). More than you can say about most players' trade demands.

As for why he gets so much hate...he did crush a lot of people's expectations of him, however high or unreasonable. Those that still hate are the ones who don't accept him for the player he is, and still dream of the player he could have been or wanted him to be.

[tsherkin]

I recall Vince talking about playing off the bench as well. And yes, the entire city was looking for him to be traded because we wanted someone healthy and driven... and of course, that worked out spectacularly well.

It was a fairly sedate, polite and respectful trade request on Vince's part. If our FO hadn't been such crap, we would have kept him and it'd have been just fine. I miss Vince in TO a lot, especially given how he's rebounded (in the general sense, not literally) during his time in New Jersey.

It was definitely time to part ways, though, given everything that had happened; the Raptors were looking to improve (and failed until Colangelo came along; man, Vince would have loved this team!) and Vince was looking to get out from the ubiquitous limelight shining on him that he hated so much. It's a shame but it was inevitable, it's just worse because Babcock was so useless as a GM.

[jvcn15]

Vince's trade request was a lot like Pierce's disgruntled, possible trade request last offseason. Except while the Raptors org hired a no-experience dumbass in Babcock and drafted Araujo, the Celtics traded for Ray Allen and KG. Not saying the latter was at all possible since the Raptors team then was basically filled with no-upside scrubs with the exception of Bosh, but still.

You're right though, it was definately time to part ways. Ah, the irony of how perfect a fit he would be on the team right now.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, Vince is kind of like the proverbial girlfriend who you dumped who was pretty but starting to get really irritating to deal with, only to find out later that she's turned into a supermodel and that the problems you were having were mostly your own fault and not hers. Picture the Robin Sweeney character from Encino Man, only without the happy ending...