What did Vince Carter do?

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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#46 » by Harry Palmer » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:31 pm

To get into it more...

I personally spoke with both Doug Smith of the Toronto Star and Dave D'Alessandro of the NJ Star-Ledger, the 2 reporters who broke the story of Carter's offer to come off the bench, and both confirmed it, and also confirmed that the story didn't come from Carter's camp (though he confirmed it when asked) but from Sam Mitchell, who approved of the idea. I'll give a detailed explanation of how things broke down.

Basically what happened was Babcock had taken over with a sort of rigid idealistic view on how things should go, and wanted to bring in a new, sort of old-fashioned hard-line, team-first, rah-rah attitude, and his acquisition of Rafer Alston (of all people) was sort of his poster child for the idea. Now Babs unfortunately brought this attitude into the middle of an already developing storm wherein Carter had been promised inclusion into the GM search, only to have that promise broken, and to find out it had been broken via the press. Forgetting whether or not a franchise player should have input (It's pretty much the norm, but either way) the fact was Carter had been assured of same, and Peddie had then decided to forget that promise and bring in Babcock with Carter finding out after it was a done deal. The 'Carter's mom-parking space' thing was Peddie's release to bring public opinion around to his side on the issue, which was another source of tension.

So into this, Babs walks in and wants to establish a tone, and once Carter's trade demand floated, he decided to use that to set the tone for the team...no one's bigger than the team, everyone earns their spot, etc. etc.

Sam, who originally saw Carter as the main attraction for taking the Toronto job, was sort of caught in the middle, in that Babs was taking a hard line, and also rubber-stamping Sam's (ultimately naive) idea for a new-style of team, wherein everyone gets about the same shots, up and down, T-E-A-M, etc, but on the other hand he was pushing hard for Alston to be the new face of the team, and meanwhile Alston's ego was exploding out of proportion to his talent.

So Carter retracts the trade request, shows up to camp saying all the right things, doesn't even complain about the new we're-all-equal thing that would drive most franchise players to their nearest press conference, and actually tries to buy in, though privately he isn't happy. Alston increasingly takes over the team's flow on the court, pointedly ignores Carter in favor of his own shot or secondary players, and starts spouting off in the media about this now being his team, and making barely veiled shots at Carter, who never responds, and never complains.

Meanwhile, the fans have bought into Peddie's spin, and Alston is (seriously, as unbelievable as it is in retrospect) the fan favorite, while Carter is the villain, the complete inverse of what's happening in the locker room, where Alston's ego and antics are increasingly driving his coaches and teammates batty. Sam tries several times to settle Alston down, Alston repeatedly goes to Babcock to complain, and Babcock supports Alston and tells Sam that Rafer represents the new team attitude. This comes to a head a couple times with Rafer having public meltdowns, storming out of practice, threatening to quit, and consistently portraying himself as the victim while being the only one to publicly point fingers, usually Carter's way, though by all accounts Carter's role is more symbolic, as he has stayed out of the arguments and conflicts off-court. He's off to a somewhat slow start, but given his pt down by almost a third, his shots way down, his offensive role being a complete mystery to him and/or anyone, and the fact that his non-existent off-season regime often leads to slow starts, he's well within a normal range, and was actually putting in more effort on defense and other areas than is his custom.

Finally, Carter goes to Sam and basically says 'let's deal with the reality: Rafer won't play with me, we don't mesh, and it's hurting the team. I'm not getting the shots I need to either get into my groove or increase my trade value, and Rafer feels threatened by my presence on the court, so why don't we let him be The Man, I'll come off the bench where I can adopt my normal role of go-to guy, and everyone' happy.'

Sam agrees, and takes it to Babcock, but Babs declines, saying that the writing's on the wall, and that moving Carter is too important to the tone he's trying to establish, ie the players don't run the team, etc. Sam privately wonders why Alston seems to be the glaring exception to that 'tone', but concedes defeat, and tells Carter it's a no-go.

So by the time the trade comes, Carter is injured, knows the team has given up on him, and Sam is aware of the same facts, so it's not really much of a surprise that neither was exactly putting the peddle to the metal all the time, as both are somewhat confused and completely frustrated with the whole Babcock/Alston/tone thing, and Carter is also out of place in Sam's new 'everyone gets shots' thing.

That's the facts, that's what happened.

That Sam's new system didn't last too long past the trade, or that Alston's ego-trip lead to several implosions even after his self-created nemesis was gone, and that Babcock ultimately goes down as one of the worst GM's in NBA history despite his short run all seems to have been forgotten when the Carter/trade thing comes up, and almost no Raps fan ever acknowledges the fact that, as mentioned, Carter did the opposite of admitting to 'dogging it' to get a trade, that his time and shots were way down, and that his offer to come off the bench is exactly the opposite of what someone trying to force a trade with poor play or thinking only of himself would do.

Instead it's just 'yeah, we got screwed in the trade, but that's because Carter was dogging it to force a move, and he even admitted it!' etc. etc.

Perception > reality, I suppose.
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#47 » by HarlemHeat37 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:23 pm

A+ post..

there are more misconceptions about Vince Carter than any athlete I've seen in a LONG time..
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#48 » by HarlemHeat37 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:27 pm

on the other side of it, we have received a good rivalry out of this..I've enjoyed watching the Carter vs. Toronto games..it was great entertainment..Carter having a huge game the 1st time out(IIRC), making a buzzer-beating 3 to beat his former team IN Toronto..a playoff series..

some great drama provided..

although some of them are very hostile and stubborn, Raptors fans are some great fans at events..
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#49 » by ronnymac2 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:43 pm

^^^^ Thanks for sharing the real story behind the scenes. I'm really glad this stuff is coming out now. I started this thread because I felt like Carter always gets this horrible, undeserved rap of being this no heart quitter. Yes, he hasn't had the greatest work ethic ever and could have worked harder to improve his game and during rehab. Some of those things are inexcusable, though explainable. (^^like the real story with Toronto.)

From what I have seen of him (and I live in the New York-New Jersey area, so I've gone to games and read the papers daily during the season), he's a good, unselfish teammate, does what his coaches want, and is basically a top level player in the game. I personally don't think he, rj, and kidd complimented each other very well (mainly due to their styles), yet they made it work pretty good, and even with carter there, Jefferson flourished.

Carter's underrated in every facet of the game, from passing to versatility to shooting to defense. And yes he's just as good a combination finisher/playmaker as Kobe or T-mac. Even with Kidd there, Carter actually ran the point at times. The ball is always in Vince's hands with the Nets. He creates, he mid-posts, he goes off the pick-n-roll, he's great moving without the ball (especially baseline, where do you think those kidd to carter reverse alley-oops happened? lol), he's a very good spot-up shooter, has a good midrange J, great strength and finishing ability, and great vision for setting up teammates. VC is one of the best players in the league.
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#50 » by HarlemHeat37 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:02 pm

I think the only legit criticism of Carter is his shot selection, which is fading away too much..I don't agree with other criticisms..sometimes you just have to accept that a guy doesn't wanna be the #1 option, no matter how much talent he has..there isn't much you can do to change that mentality..killer instinct is just something you have IMO, and Carter doesn't have it..he's a great #2 option, since he wouldn't have nearly as much pressure on him..

if Cleveland finds a way to acquire him and put him next to The King, you'll hear a lot more positive comments about Vince..that's a perfect combo IMO..Vince gives them a guy that can create his own offense, a great passer for his position, still has good athleticism, can play off Lebron with his 3-point shooting and dunking ability..he'll be in a system that will make him better defensively..no pressure playing next to arguably the best player in the NBA..
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#51 » by ronnymac2 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:43 pm

That combo would be crazy...I was gonna say that, too. Remember like a month ago when there were the rumors of that carter for wally trade. If James and Carter go on the same team??? damn. Carter, a guy that good as your second best player, would make that team amazing.

Just imagine the dunk contests at practice.......
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#52 » by tsherkin » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:00 am

Vince would be great next to Lebron, no question.
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#53 » by Point forward » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:18 am

I think VC mainly got his bad rep b/c ppl always thought he was the next Jordan. IMHO that is the root of this. That he did the "unforgivable sin" of not giving 110% every second and left "his" franchise are secondary reasons, but w/o MJ's shadow lurking over him, he would not nearly have so much backlash.
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#54 » by starvinmarvin17 » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:11 am

haha i think he should stop faking his injuries and when they real injuries he shouldnt act so helpless and pretend he got shot by some sniper... hes also very stumpy now compared to before lol
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Re: What did Vince Carter do? 

Post#55 » by 5DOM » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:19 am

TdotWattz wrote:Raptor fans will kill anyone that leaves....T-Mac gets the boos too when he comes into town...
I hope they boo Chuck Swirsky when the Bulls come into town...
If Bosh leaves, the fans will have no love for him either

Vince is going to the hall of fame, too bad its not in a Raptors uniform


we are nice to guys like morris peterson and carlos delgado

btw, i think people in toronto are so upset because they know how great this guy could have been.
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