Dr J or West or Oscar

[JordansBulls]

Who is considered better out of these 3 guys:

Dr J or Jerry West or Oscar Robertson

[The Main Event]

In their primes i would have to go with Oscar for the simple fact that he came into the league as a rook and averaged triple-doubles for 4 consecutive seasons.

[Teddy KGB]

West or O for me

I voted West.

[Wade3Iverson]

1. West

2. Dr. J

3. Oscar

[NO-KG-AI]

I might be the minority, but I would take Doc.

[tkb]

Jerry West for me.

[penbeast0]

I depends what you need. Oscar came into the NBA and was considered clearly superior to West through the first part of their careers. West maintained his elite play longer, played better defense, and had more shooting range. Doc made his mark in the ABA, his NBA career, while great, doesn't quite match up with the two 60s stars so there is a question how legit his dominance was. Oscar and West are both PGs too, which is a harder position to find.

If I was offerred the chance to draft all three, I'd have to choose Oscar, then West, then Erving.

If I measure their career impact on basketball, I'd have to say Erving, then West, then Oscar

[kooldude]

Dr. J

[superBlazerFan]

it saddens me how underrated oscar has become.. the guy is the first or second best pg of all time

[ice9]

it saddens me how underrated oscar has become.. the guy is the first or second best pg of all time

How does this thread underrate him? He's being lumped into a comparison with Dr J and West, not exactly scrubs. Top 12 or so players of all time. The order is debatable (I'd go Dr/West/Oscar, with West and Erving being VERY close), but they are all on the same tier.

[Basketball1]

In my opinion:

1. Jerry West

2. Oscar

3. Dr J.

[writerman]

it saddens me how underrated oscar has become.. the guy is the first or second best pg of all time

Two reasons:

1. Oscar wasn't flashy--he was a Duncan type player, superbly fundamental (and was better as a guard than Duncan is as a PF/C). Oscar was like the old Lombardi Green Bay Packers; they had no elaborate playbook--they just executed the hell out of opponents. There were no mysteries about what they did--you knew exactly what they were going to do, but they executed so well you couldn't stop them anyway. Great athletic ability + inpeccable fundamentals/execution = Oscar.

When I was in my teens I saw Oscar several times a year when he played for the Old Cincinnati Royals. He was so smooth he possessed a very "quiet" game. You could watch him and almost always you would understimate what his game end stats would be. You might guess 24-7-7 only to be surprised to see at the end of the game he'd gone for 36-12-10.

2. There are a lot of ignorant younger fans here who think if you don't do silly-ass, irrelevant dunks on eurostiffs like Carter did or don't have a "killa crossova" like that worthless little chucker in Denver, you supposedly don't play the game.

[ronnymac2]

Erving very, very slightly over West. Both of them over Oscar, though. Despite Oscar averaging the triple double, I honestly think an argument can be made that Erving and West were more complete players. They were better defenders and better without the ball in their hands.

Something has to be said for all three of them that is impressive. They changed their game for the good of the team as their careers progressed. Oscar was smart enough to know exactly what he had in Kareem, and together they led one of the most efficient offenses ever, even with oscar getting older.

West for basically his entire career, played with elgin baylor, a scoring machine. West is of course an all time scorer, too. Yet they both averaged for their careers around 27 points per game or so. AND, West had a better fg% than Baylor, a foward who played closer to the basket than west did. Then, West teamed with Wilt and Elgin, then Goodrich and wilt, and still maintained great production. This is why I think West is better than Oscar without the ball. He didn't need to control the ball to be effective, thus allowing baylor, wilt and goodrich to do what they did. He was also a better defender.

Erving was THE MAN on his ABA teams. Then he goes to the nba, and is touted as the guy that is going to dominate as much as Kareem does. But he's got a bunch of big time scorers on his team already. Yet he fits in seamlessly with them, doing other things to help the team win. His teams are great for years, and then he gets Moses Malone. The former MVP, Erving, uses Moses the right way, deferring to him and being a very good teammate, while also being there to make the big plays in crunch time. They have an all-time postseason together.

So all 3 should be credited with being dominant players, dominant in the stats, winning titles, AND fitting their individual talents within the team concept to help their team win.

Erving, West, Oscar. West and Erving is very, very close though, and if somebody argued West over Erving, I either wouldn't mind, or might just change my own mind.

[The Main Event]

I'm 24 and put Oscar as number one for the reasons that you've listed but i still enjoy watching silly-ass irrelevant dunks solely for entertainment.

[penbeast0]

Another thing to consider:

Oscar created the most mismatches, (a 6'7 in modern measurement PG . . . like Magic but better in the halfcourt offense than the open floor)

West was the easiest to fit with other talent (who wouldn't want a great defensive guard who could play either guard spot with outstanding shooting range and driving ability)

Erving faced the most pressure and played with the most grace and in the more modern era (West was classy too, Oscar could be cold and abrupt). Other than Jordan, who else ever carried an entire league on his shoulders (At least Wilt had Russell, Bird had Magic).

[andykeikei]

Well we are talking about better player, not greater. So I won't count their contributions to the league.

I think West is the best player among them.
Oscar had great stats and had excellent fundamental like writerman said. But he seemed to be underachieve in his career. He had Jerry Lucas as his teammate but they still couldn't get good result. I know he played in an era when the Celtics dominated, in which West couldn't win the final either. But at least West had proved that he could play second fiddle to Baylor and also as the first option.

Dr. J was not as good as the other two.

[TrueLAfan]

It's a tough question...IMO, all of these players are in the second tier group between 6 and about 14.

Oscar probably/maybe has the best individual stats. His numbers, in modern context, are around 27-12-6 in his peak years. That's pretty amazing. He's the only truly elite scorer/passer in NBA, with the exception of Tiny Archibald for about a year and a half. Since Oscar's offensive game wasn't based on physical skills, he would—on the surface—have the least to lose as he aged. He was incredibly durable. His peak period was jaw dropping, statistically.

But Oscar was the least effective teammate in this group. As other posters have noted, his teams often underachieved. He did not have great range. He was a pretty average defender...worse as he got older. His offensive game did weaken as he got older...even though he was playing with a top 3 player of all time in the post, his efficiency tumbled in later years. And his peak period, as great as it was, is overstated by raw statistics...you have to normalize the numbers to get an idea of what he was really like

West had the best overall game of the three. Everything he did was at a very high or elite level, with the possible exception of rebounding...but even there, West was an above average rebounder. He was one of the greatest defensive guards of all time; his defense was so good that his great stats still understate his true value. He was a volume scorer. He was a terrific passer. He was a fantastic teammate and one of the few people that can truly be said to be a clutch player. His range was tremendous. His game would not just translate to the modern era; it would likely be better.

West got hurt, though...he averaged only 70 games a year in his first 13 years. He fell off in efficiency in later years too, although not by as much as Oscar. Statistically, he may have had the lowest peak, at least offensively (although it was still almost criminally high). That's about all the bad things you can say about Jerry West, though. He was an amazingly complete player.

Dr. J kind of splits the difference between Oscar and Jerry...he's a different player, so it's hard to make a direct comparison. Erving was a great teammate; his impact went beyond his numbers. He was a (much) better defender than Oscar and if he was less fundamentally solid than the other two, it isn't by much. He's the best rebounder of the group at his peak, not just overall, but in comparison to good players at his position. Great volume scorer. Best durability of the group too...even though West was at or near his peak after 41000 combined regular season/playoff minutes, Dr. J stayed better, longer. He rarely missed games. And Erving's peak—especially the 1975-6 season—may be the best of all these guys.

But Erving is hampered by the ABA issue...he was still great in the NBA, but only about 90% as great as he was in the ABA. Those numbers and that play will always have a question mark...how big it is is a subjective call. How much did Dr. J benefit (or suffer) from competition/rule differences? Erving had good, but not great range. He dropped off in efficiency late in his career, although it's a West-like amount (i.e. Not a whole lot). His man defense was just average to above average. His turnovers were a little high, although given his usage, not that high.

To me—and I've said this before—West is the best of the group. Best overall game, best playoff performer, best teammate. I also think he'd be even better in a game that had less physical interior play and the three. Medical advances would help him recover quicker and rely less on his individual toughness...we are talking about a guy that his nose broken nine times, and on more than one occasion, simply stuffed cotton up his (broken) nose and kept playing. Put it this way...I figure that, at the least one eighth (12.5%) of Jerry West's shots were threes anyway. He probably made at least 37% of them (I think that's a conservative estimate). That puts his scoring average up a full point; it makes his TS% .570. And if he was in a league where threes were shot freely and there was more spacing, his scoring would go up even more. His skills and physical gifts were tailor made for play in the current era. I have pretty much no doubt in saying that, playing in the modern league, Jerry West would hang up a series of 29-5-7.5 season where he shot around 49% form the field, close to 40% from three, got close to three steals and two blocks a game, and was the best defensive guard in the league. Imagine a Kobe Bryant level player that scored maybe a point or two less and grabbed about a half to a full rebound less...but shot much better from the field and three, went to the line as much or more, got twice as many blocks and steals, was a better overall defender and was the most respected player and best teammate in the league. That's Jerry West.

Dr. J vs. Oscar is more problematic. Bill James—the baseball writer/stat guru—made a comparison of Ty Cobb and Mickey Mantle in one of his books and, essentially, said “I am forced to choose Cobb. But if I were starting a team, I would take Mantle every time.” I feel the same way here. I am forced to say that Oscar was better. (maybe. Very slightly.) Although I think Dr. J's peak season was better than any season Oscar ever had, I cannot prove it. Oscar's numbers are, IMO, radically inflated for period and slightly inflated by his team/style of play/team statistician. He crosses a particular threshold (triple double!) that means less given his time period and, psychologically, make his play seem better than it was. Oscar gets a bonus where Erving gets a minus...Erving's fundamental skills (excellent, if not as good as Oscar's) and defensive play (truly outstanding) were often overlooked...or, to be more honest, ignored because the NBA wanted to give the impression that ABA was a playground league that played little physical ball or hard defense. Balancing everything, I would start a team with Julius Erving six days a week and twice on Sunday and feel confident I would be making the right decision.

But those are subjective feelings...it's very close to a tie between them on paper, and that's where most (too much, in my opinion) analysis is done now. I feel as though I'm slighting Oscar here—that is not my intention. He was a wonderful, gifted ballplayer that put up Herculean individual numbers. As a player in a team game, as a member of team, I rate him below West and Erving. But as an individual, using quantifiable numbers, he is probably ahead of Dr. J.

[halfHAVOC]

big O

[andykeikei]

It's a tough question...IMO, all of these players are in the second tier group between 6 and about 14.

Oscar probably/maybe has the best individual stats. His numbers, in modern context, are around 27-12-6 in his peak years. That's pretty amazing. He's the only truly elite scorer/passer in NBA, with the exception of Tiny Archibald for about a year and a half. Since Oscar's offensive game wasn't based on physical skills, he would—on the surface—have the least to lose as he aged. He was incredibly durable. His peak period was jaw dropping, statistically.

But Oscar was the least effective teammate in this group. As other posters have noted, his teams often underachieved. He did not have great range. He was a pretty average defender...worse as he got older. His offensive game did weaken as he got older...even though he was playing with a top 3 player of all time in the post, his efficiency tumbled in later years. And his peak period, as great as it was, is overstated by raw statistics...you have to normalize the numbers to get an idea of what he was really like

West had the best overall game of the three. Everything he did was at a very high or elite level, with the possible exception of rebounding...but even there, West was an above average rebounder. He was one of the greatest defensive guards of all time; his defense was so good that his great stats still understate his true value. He was a volume scorer. He was a terrific passer. He was a fantastic teammate and one of the few people that can truly be said to be a clutch player. His range was tremendous. His game would not just translate to the modern era; it would likely be better.

West got hurt, though...he averaged only 70 games a year in his first 13 years. He fell off in efficiency in later years too, although not by as much as Oscar. Statistically, he may have had the lowest peak, at least offensively (although it was still almost criminally high). That's about all the bad things you can say about Jerry West, though. He was an amazingly complete player.

Dr. J kind of splits the difference between Oscar and Jerry...he's a different player, so it's hard to make a direct comparison. Erving was a great teammate; his impact went beyond his numbers. He was a (much) better defender than Oscar and if he was less fundamentally solid than the other two, it isn't by much. He's the best rebounder of the group at his peak, not just overall, but in comparison to good players at his position. Great volume scorer. Best durability of the group too...even though West was at or near his peak after 41000 combined regular season/playoff minutes, Dr. J stayed better, longer. He rarely missed games. And Erving's peak—especially the 1975-6 season—may be the best of all these guys.

But Erving is hampered by the ABA issue...he was still great in the NBA, but only about 90% as great as he was in the ABA. Those numbers and that play will always have a question mark...how big it is is a subjective call. How much did Dr. J benefit (or suffer) from competition/rule differences? Erving had good, but not great range. He dropped off in efficiency late in his career, although it's a West-like amount (i.e. Not a whole lot). His man defense was just average to above average. His turnovers were a little high, although given his usage, not that high.

To me—and I've said this before—West is the best of the group. Best overall game, best playoff performer, best teammate. I also think he'd be even better in a game that had less physical interior play and the three. Medical advances would help him recover quicker and rely less on his individual toughness...we are talking about a guy that his nose broken nine times, and on more than one occasion, simply stuffed cotton up his (broken) nose and kept playing. Put it this way...I figure that, at the least one eighth (12.5%) of Jerry West's shots were threes anyway. He probably made at least 37% of them (I think that's a conservative estimate). That puts his scoring average up a full point; it makes his TS% .570. And if he was in a league where threes were shot freely and there was more spacing, his scoring would go up even more. His skills and physical gifts were tailor made for play in the current era. I have pretty much no doubt in saying that, playing in the modern league, Jerry West would hang up a series of 29-5-7.5 season where he shot around 49% form the field, close to 40% from three, got close to three steals and two blocks a game, and was the best defensive guard in the league. Imagine a Kobe Bryant level player that scored maybe a point or two less and grabbed about a half to a full rebound less...but shot much better from the field and three, went to the line as much or more, got twice as many blocks and steals, was a better overall defender and was the most respected player and best teammate in the league. That's Jerry West.

Dr. J vs. Oscar is more problematic. Bill James—the baseball writer/stat guru—made a comparison of Ty Cobb and Mickey Mantle in one of his books and, essentially, said “I am forced to choose Cobb. But if I were starting a team, I would take Mantle every time.” I feel the same way here. I am forced to say that Oscar was better. (maybe. Very slightly.) Although I think Dr. J's peak season was better than any season Oscar ever had, I cannot prove it. Oscar's numbers are, IMO, radically inflated for period and slightly inflated by his team/style of play/team statistician. He crosses a particular threshold (triple double!) that means less given his time period and, psychologically, make his play seem better than it was. Oscar gets a bonus where Erving gets a minus...Erving's fundamental skills (excellent, if not as good as Oscar's) and defensive play (truly outstanding) were often overlooked...or, to be more honest, ignored because the NBA wanted to give the impression that ABA was a playground league that played little physical ball or hard defense. Balancing everything, I would start a team with Julius Erving six days a week and twice on Sunday and feel confident I would be making the right decision.

But those are subjective feelings...it's very close to a tie between them on paper, and that's where most (too much, in my opinion) analysis is done now. I feel as though I'm slighting Oscar here—that is not my intention. He was a wonderful, gifted ballplayer that put up Herculean individual numbers. As a player in a team game, as a member of team, I rate him below West and Erving. But as an individual, using quantifiable numbers, he is probably ahead of Dr. J.

Good post!

I am wondering how does people at that time rate between Oscar and West?

[penbeast0]

All NBA Team (MVP voting)
Year West Robertson
1961 1st(11) 1st(5)
1962 1st(5) 1st(3)
1963 1st(5) 1st(3)
1964 1st(5) 1st(1) Oscar wins MVP
1965 1st(3) 1st(2)
1966 1st(2) 1st(3)
1967 2nd-- 1st(4)
1968 2nd-- 1st(5)
1969 1st-- 1st-- West wins Finals MVP
1970 1st(2) 2nd--
1971 1st(2) 2nd(5)Oscar traded to Milwaukee and his stats are cut nearly in half
1972 1st(2) ----
1973 1st(6) ----
1974 ---- ---- Last year for both, West only plays 31 games

So, as you can see, for the first 10 years of their career, they were clearly considered the best guards in the game but Oscar won consistently more MVP votes. Then Oscar is traded to Milwaukee and accepts a supporting role to Kareem while West puts together the best 4 years of MVP voting in his career. Oscar has one MVP vote, West has one finals mvp.