GOLDEN AGE ATL *Wilt/Oscar Regions* 2ND ROUND

[penbeast0]

Golden State Warriors
(GM - Myth_Breaker)

I. GENERAL WRITEUP
(may add more later)

ROSTER

STARTERS
(may be changed depending on matchups)

PG - Mark Price
(6-0, 170 lbs)

1991/92 season
17,3 ppg (.488/.387/.947)/2,4 rpg/7,4 apg/1,3 spg/0,2 bpg in 29,7 mpg. 57-25 team record.
All-NBA Third Team, All-Star, 7th in MVP voting. Led the NBA in FT percentage.
1992/93 season
18,2 ppg (.484/.416/.948)/2,7 rpg/8,0 apg/1,2 spg/0,1 bpg in 31,7 mpg. 54-28 team record.
All-NBA First Team, All-Star, 8th in MVP voting. Led the NBA in FT percentage.

SG - Dennis Johnson
(6-4, 200 lbs)

1979/80 season
19,0 ppg (.422/.207/.780)/5,1 rpg/4,1 apg/1,8 spg/1,0 bpg in 36,3 mpg. 56-26 team record.
All-NBA Second Team, All-Star, All-Defensive First Team, 5th in MVP voting.
1980/81 season
18,8 ppg (.436/.216/.820)/4,6 rpg/3,7 apg/1,7 spg/0,8 bpg in 33,1 mpg. 57-25 team record.
All-NBA First Team, All-Star, All-Defensive First Team, 8th in MVP voting.

SF - Julius Erving
(6-7, 210 lbs)

1979/80 season
26,9 ppg (.519/.200/.787)/7,4 rpg/4,6 apg/2,2 spg/1,8 bpg in 36,1 mpg. 59-23 team record.
All-NBA First Team, All-Star, 2nd in MVP voting.
1980/81 season
24,6 ppg (.521/.222/.787)/8,0 rpg/4,4 apg/2,1 spg/1,8 bpg in 35,0 mpg. 62-20 team record.
All-NBA First Team, All-Star, Season MVP.

PF - Rasheed Wallace
(6-11, 230 lbs)

2000/01 season
19,2 ppg (.501/.321/.766)/7,8 rpg/2,8 apg/1,2 spg/1,8 bpg in 38,2 mpg. 50-32 team record.
NBA All-Star.
2001/02 season
19,3 ppg (.469/.360/.734)/8,2 rpg/1,9 apg/1,3 spg/1,3 bpg in 37,5 mpg. 49-33 team record.

C - Alonzo Mourning
(6-10, 261 lbs)

1998/99 season
20,1 ppg (.511/.652)/11,0 rpg/1,6 apg/0,7 spg/3,9 bpg in 38,1 mpg. 33-17 team record.
All-NBA First Team, All-Defensive First Team, Defensive Player of the Year, 2nd in MVP voting. Led the NBA in blocks and blocks per game.
1999/2000 season
21,7 ppg (.551/.711)/9,5 rpg/1,6 apg/0,5 spg/3,7 bpg in 34,8 mpg. 52-30 team record.
All-NBA Second Team, All-Star, All-Defensive First Team, Defensive Player of the Year, 3rd in MVP voting. Led the NBA in blocks and blocks per game.

BENCH

- PG Tony Parker
(6-2, 180 lbs)

2005/2006 season
18,9 ppg (.548/.306/.707)/3,3 rpg/5,8 apg/1,0 spg/0,1 bpg in 33,9 mpg. 63-19 team record.
NBA All-Star, 9th in MVP voting.
2006/2007 season
18,6 ppg (.520/.395/.783)/3,2 rpg/5,5 apg/1,1 spg/0,1 bpg in 32,5 mpg. 58-24 team record.
NBA All-Star, 15th in MVP voting, Finals MVP.

- G Eric Snow
(6-3, 190 lbs)

2001/2002 season
12,1 ppg (.442/.111/.806)/3,6 rpg/6,6 apg/1,6 spg/0,1 bpg in 36,5 mpg. 43-39 team record.
2002/2003 season
12,9 ppg (.452/.219/.858)/3,7 rpg/6,6 apg/1,6 spg/0,1 bpg in 37,9 mpg. 48-34 team record.
All-Defensive Second Team.

- SF/SG Glen Rice
(6-8, 228 lbs)

1996/97 season
26,8 ppg (.477/.470/.867)/4,0 rpg/2,0 apg/0,9 spg/0,3 bpg in 42,6 mpg. 54-28 team record.
All-NBA Second Team, NBA All-Star, All-Star Game MVP, 5th in MVP voting. Led the NBA in 3P percentage and minutes played.
1997/98 season
22,3 ppg (.457/.433/.849)/4,3 rpg/2,2 apg/0,9 spg/0,3 bpg in 40,2 mpg. 51-31 team record.
All-NBA Third Team, NBA All-Star, 11th in MVP voting.

- PF Kermit Washington
(6-8, 230 lbs - I don't have data about him measured in shoes and with updated college weight, should be about 6-9, 245 lbs then)

1979/80 season
13,4 ppg (.553/.642)/10,5 rpg/2,1 apg/0,9 spg/1,6 bpg in 33,2 mpg. 38-44 team record.
NBA All-Star, All-Defensive Second Team.
1980/81 season
11,4 ppg (.569/.628)/9,4 rpg/2,0 apg/1,2 spg/1,2 bpg in 29,0 mpg. 45-37 team record.
All-Defensive Second Team.

- PF/C Jermaine O'Neal
(6-11, 260 lbs)

2002/2003 season
20,8 ppg (.484/.731)/10,3 rpg/2,0 apg/0,9 spg/2,3 bpg in 37,2 mpg. 48-34 team record.
All-NBA Third Team, All-Star.
2003/2004 season
20,1 ppg (.434/.757)/10,0 rpg/2,1 apg/0,8 spg/2,6 bpg in 35,7 mpg. 61-21 team record.
All-NBA Second Team, All-Star, 3rd in MVP voting.

II. FIRST ROUND: GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS WIN OVER INDIANA PACERS 7-4 IN VOTES
(Congrats for brave fight, jeahwe!)

III. SECOND ROUND: GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS VS. HOUSTON ROCKETS
(may add more later, but IDK whether will have access to net during the weekend)

GENERAL COMMENTS

First I’d like to congratulate TMACFORMVP for assembling another great team. It’s sad that fate forces us to meet again already in 2nd round and one of us must end his journey here (of course it won’t be me! ). Rockets are a team without greater weaknesses, preferring halfcourt offense, with stifling defense, built around inside-outside superstar duo of swingman and 2-way big – all just like my Warriors, but Warriors happen to have more advantages in head-to-head matchups and I’m going to exploit all of them.

STARTING FIVES

PG – Mark Price vs. Isiah Thomas

The obvious advantage goes to Rockets, though a couple of factors work in favor of Price in this matchup. Namely, Isiah in his reference period, far before Bad Boys becoming a power, didn’t have any playoff experience to speak of (only once went past 1st round!) when compared to Price during his reference period. PG is a position where experience counts the most: how can you trust young Isiah to helm your squad and lead to success, especially in ultra-competitive environment of Golden Era League and vs. someone battle-tested against even Jordan’s Bulls in Price!
Second, Zeke is much inferior long-range shooter to Price: in fact, below-average one, with <.300 combined accuracy in his reference period. So he isn’t going to make us pay when defense collapses on T-Mac and Ewing: while if tries to penetrate, he’s going to meet Zo’s unstoppable wall!
Anyway, in this single matchup advantage: Rockets.

SG – Dennis Johnson vs. Tracy McGrady

T-Mac is a great offensive player, but rather prone to tough, physical defense (more than Jordan, LBJ or Kobe). When someone shoots .426 vs. Artest in his career, you know he’s vulnerable in such way, with 5-21, 6-19, 9-22 and 11-32 (and only one good game with 13-23) performances even in your carefully chosen reference period! Ditto with Tracy’s .414 efficiency against Bowen (you may attribute this drop also to Spurs overall excellent defense, but my team defense is even better ) with 7-21 and 15-36 failures and only one decent 12-26 game in the reference period (BTW, I’d love T-Mac to take 36 attempts against my squad: even 26 would be bad for your game-flow!). Dennis Johnson is even more renowned defender than Artest and BB (I’ll remind that Magic called him not only his best defender, but also the best perimeter defender he’s ever seen). You do the math: Tracy is still going to outproduce his direct rival, but on poor efficiency and not giving you enough to change the tide of our rivalry.
Plus we all know that McGrady never went to the 2nd round, what makes your starting backcourt VERY inexperienced compared to others.
Advantage: Rockets.

SF – Julius Erving vs. Bruce Bowen

You might say it’s reversal of our off-guard matchup, this time with Rockets defensive specialist on Warriors offensive force. With that difference that while Erving is probably even better offensive player than McGrady due to superior efficiency, Bowen is inferior defender to DJ (and obviously even to bigger extent worse overall player). Dr J in his career was guarded by the likes of Bobby Jones, Michael Cooper and Dennis Johnson: guy like BB (who must probably would be much less effective defender without Duncan protecting his back and excellent Spurs’ defensive system) isn’t going to frighten him. Of course, Bowen is still tough matchup: but I don’t expect Erving efficiency to drop below .500, considering he shot .520 in his reference period!
Huge advantage: Warriors.

PF – Rasheed Wallace vs. Charles Oakley

I’ve always shared sentiment felt by many NBA fans that Sheed is a talent at least on Dirk/Webber level, but frankly speaking rather on Duncan/KG level. He has arguably the most complete offensive arsenal among bigmen – legitimate 3-point range, midrange face-up game, back-to-basket moves, dunks, hooks, very good FT accuracy; he can do it all. He’s very good passer and even better defender, especially man-to-man, but also in help defense, averaging almost 3 blocks and steals combined in his reference period (I can attribute him missing All-Defensive nominations only to voters blaming him for off-court issues of Blazers team). Too bad Wallace utilized only like 60% of his talent. Too bad for Rockets and Oakley that it’s still more than 100% of Oak’s talent.  Because the only area where Charles has advantage in this matchup is rebounding (and being physical, though Sheed can be pretty physical himself, as shown while helping to guard even Shaq). Rasheed is worlds more prolific and versatile scorer (Oak – mainly garbage scorer), better passer, slightly better man-to-man defender and clearly better help defender. Also Sheed’s range will force Oakley from the basket, thus reducing his rebounding advantage, similarly as it was against Barkley. Advantage: Warriors.

C – Alonzo Mourning vs. Pat Ewing

Since reference periods of these 2 great Georgetown products are not close chronologically, the best way of assessing this duel would be comparing all their career matchups. I checked Zo and Pat head-to-head and was very pleasantly surprised by the results!

Ewing: 24,1 ppg on .535 TS%/10,8 rpg/1,6 apg/0,6 spg/2,5 bpg, 11 team wins

Mourning: 20,9 ppg on .535 TS%/10,5 rpg/1,3 apg/0,8 spg/3,7 bpg, 11 team wins!

(I omitted their playoff matchups, in which Alonzo produced better, since it would be unfair: Ewing was past his prime then)

It’s hard to find two more similar statlines, right? But if you add as well that:
a) Zo got his points on 15,7 FGA and 8,6 FTA, what is more promising ratio than Ewing’s 19,9 FGA and only 6,0 FTA: I’d rather have a center who leaves more shots to other great scorers of mine while drawing more fouls instead!
b) Zo also in such direct duels confirmed that is much more intimidating shotblocker than Ewing=his defensive impact on the whole opposing team is greater,
c) Zo on average had inferior supporting casts to Pat, so reaching a 11-11 tie in wins is doubly impressive in such situation,

- Then you can easily draw a conclusion that despite Ewing having longer and more prolific career than Alonzo, I have even slight advantage in this matchup of their primes! But I’ll understand if someone declares it a tie.

BENCH

Starks, Manu, Horry, Roundfield and Okafor vs. Tony Parker, Snow, Glen Rice, Kermit Washington and Jermaine.
I don’t trust Starks at PG at all: he’s only undersized SG with average ballhandling skills. Tony Parker, who’s one of the best penetrators in the league and also happens to be much quicker, is going to blow past Starks whenever he wants, while giving his team much more as to creating for others and controlling the pace.
Manu is going to outplay Snow (and help Starks with playmaking duties) for sure. But if prime Snow was able to make Kobe call Eric his best defender, the former will be certainly able to harass Gino, who’s only poor man’s Kobe, even more effectively.
Horry is nice player and known from his clutch long range shots, but think about it: Rice was able both to shoot far MORE 3s, with HIGHER accuracy, despite being MAIN target of opponents defenses, unlike Horry, who made a living out of open shots he received thanks to defense collapsing on Hakeem/Duncan/Shaq. So whom you trust more to shoot in every comparable situation: a star or a role player?
Again I didn’t assign any fixed PT to Kermit Washington, wanting to find more minutes for much superior player in Jermaine, but he will enter the action in 2 cases: if one of my bigs get into foul trouble/my opponents, mainly Oakley, become to physical. Then I unleash Kermit to answer with my own pair of enforcers Washington-Zo. They may even kill each other with Oakley, and the net result will be beneficial for the Warriors since for Houston’s starter I’ll give up a player who’s not even in my main rotation. As to Kermit-Roundfield theme, the latter is more well-rounded player. But is also more well-rounded player than Oakley and you chose Oak as a starter, so I guess I don’t have to explain you why Oakley/Washington-type enforcers may be more useful next to dominant bigs like Zo, Ewing or Jermaine. If Kermit finds, you may say you win his duel with Roundfield, but since they will be matched vs. each other only for few minutes, it doesn’t matter much in general scheme of the things.
Jermaine vs. Okafor. Prime JO, being MVP candidate, is easily the best overall player on both benches (the second one is also GSW player in Rice, TP and Manu fight for 3rd place, so Warriors have 3 out of 4 best bench players ). Since he wasn’t stopped even by combined defense of Sheed and Big Ben, won’t be denied also by players smaller than him and of lower profile in Roundfield and Okafor, who’s a guy with limited offense and without ANY playoff game under his belt!
You can see that my bench is clearly superior. Advantage: Warriors.

COMMENTS ON OFFENSE AND PASSING

Ewing/Oakley and Zo/Rasheed duos practically offset each other in the post. Erving’s production under any comparable circumstances would easily match T-Mac’s: remember than his 79-81 numbers were collected in stacked 60-wins teams, unlike McGrady’s weak .500 Orlando squads, where the latter had every opportunity to inflate his stats. But if we also take into account argument that DJ’s defense on McGrady is worth more than Bruce’s defense on Erving, Dr J will be even more productive, in which will be helped by his experience edge. Dennis Johnson next to Bowen, who’s offense limited to 3s from the corner (one season he achieved unusual feat of registering 3P% higher than FG% and FG% higher than FT%!) looks like Jordan, so another advantage goes to GSW. Only Isiah will have bigger impact in scoring than his Warriors counterpart: his clutchness perhaps can make up for Ewing’s traditional choking.
Did I already mention I have better 3P shooting? Price – best sniper in both starting 5s, Glen Rice – best on both benches, with Price and Rasheed my starters are overall more prolific in this regard, benches remain comparable; overall advantage goes to Golden State.
Passing: I have 4 guys tested as PG in real world, thus being able to run my offense in Price, DJ, Snow and Tony Parker. Rockets have only one in Isiah, so even taking into consideration help from Manu and T-Mac (good creators, but not real playmakers), Houston may have hard time with structuring their offense when Zeke’s on the bench, while I won’t face similar problems. In my starting 5 only Alonzo isn’t above-average passer, and still isn’t bad: on Ewing’s level or even little higher considering Pat’s bad hands. So edge in passing/creating goes to Warriors.

COMMENTS ON DEFENSE

In addition to what I’ve already said about head-to-head matchups: though not to the extent which happened in previous rounds, defensive matchups are more favorable for my team. I have the best post defender/most skilled shotblocker in Zo and the best perimeter defender in DJ. As mentioned, Dennis will contain T-Mac better than Bowen – Dr J. Since with BB Houston plays 4 on 5 in offense, Erving may help double Tracy: another reason to expect more 7-22 nights from the latter. So, while Rockets’ defense remains impressive, I feel like my guys will be more efficient in this matchup.

INTANGIBLES AND CONCLUSION

Rockets are properly constructed team, but what may cause chemistry problems for them is relationship between Isiah and Ewing. Remember what happened when Zeke played next to dominant scorer in Dantley? Didn’t like it at all and got Dantley traded in order to claim Pistons undoubtedly HIS team again. Or remember what happened when Don Nelson wanted Ewing to focus more on defense and give more shots to Anthony Mason? Boom! Ewing led players’ mutiny and the coach got fired. Whose team are the Rockets: Isiah’s or Ewing’s? Hard to say at first look (unlike in case of Warriors, where Dr J and Zo are clear-cut No. 1 and No. 2), so such situation may very likely lead to tensions which will make Rockets’ performance worse.

In summary, my superstars seem to be better fits to each other, including the best all-around player in this matchup in Erving and the best defensive player in Zo. I have more potent offense/passing, and defense which is overall comparable to Houston’s, but in this specific duel will be more effective due to favorable matchups. I have more prolific and versatile bench. I have edge in experience. I reckon I don’t need anything more to send Rockets home. GO WARRIORS!

[TMACFORMVP]

First off congrats for advancing Myth, and looking forward to the re-match of last competitions ATL second round. Once again you've built a terrific team, and may the best team win.


Houston Rockets

PG-Isiah Thomas///John Starks
SG-Tracy McGrady////Manu Ginobili
SF-Bruce Bowen///Robert Horry
PF-Charles Oakley///Dan Roundfield
C-Patrick Ewing///Emeka Okafor

Golden State Warriors

PG-Mark Price///Tony Parker
SG-Dennis Johnson///Eric Snow
SF-Julius Erving///Glen Rice
PF-Rasheed Wallace///Kermit Washington
C-Alonzo Mourning///Jermaine O'neal

Alright, here are a few things that stick out in this matchup.

Rebounding
Upfront, though Zo, Sheed and Jermaine are very good defensive players, rebounding isn't one their strong strengths. They're all generally around 10 rebounds per game (barring Sheed, who's more from 7-8) while Ewing was consistently near 11 boards, Oakley over 12, Roundfield near 12, and even Okafor with around 11. Erving has the edge over Mac, but it isn't the difference one would think (7.7 versus 7.2). Isiah is also better than his counterpart in Price. Overall from nearly all positions both starters and reserves, I have the considerable edge on the boards.

Edge: Houston

Passing/Play-Making
I think having Isiah alone wins me this department. In his prime he was one of the most prolific passers to have ever played with an average of over twelve assists per game including once maxing out at nearly fourteen. Though Price was definitely an above average passer, the years Myth is using was one of his lesser years in terms of play-making where he was just average at best, especially for a PG... DJ has the edge over Bowen, but McGrady and Erving are a wash in that department if not a slight edge to Mac, while Ewing definitely has the edge over Mourning.

Edge: Houston

Defense
Myth yet again has built another fantastic defensive team, but this time I feel I have the edge in this department. Bowen is one of the premiere perimeter defenders to have ever played the game and one of the best ever in terms of keeping his man off the FT line. Considering Erving was not not a threat from beyond the arc and didn't get to the FT line as much you'd expect from a high volume scorer such as himself, he'll have to rely on getting not only past Bowen but trying to finish over Oakley (one of the best enforcers EVER) and Ewing who was just as good a shot-blocker as Zo in his prime. Then to compare that DJ who should do a good job on Mac is almost irrelevant considering T-Mac is m third option. He'll just play in the flow of the offense and make the right play. You think with a team of Ewing/Isiah, he'll chuck up 20+ shots when his shot is not going? This is not even mentioning the fact that Mac has a huge height advantage and one of his strengths is high high elevation on the jumper, so he could just turn around and shoot (Mac wasn't prone to physical contact in Orlando where he shot nearly 10 FT attempts per game in 02-03). So the fact that my third option on the offensive end will be compared to the #1 option and likely have an easier time makes the perimeter defense a wash.

Upfront, Zo has the edge over Ewing, but in the head to head matchups (which will be shown later) the advantage is literally nothing, in fact the edge has gone to Ewing EVERY time. Sheed known for his great man D, won't be needed as much since Oakley was primarily a jump-shooter/garbage man around the basket. Oakley would contain Sheed's post game inside and wasn't shy to go out and contest shots around the perimeter. Where I feel I have the edge is that Mark Price is the biggest hole defensively in both team's lineups and he'll have to share the majority of the time guarding Isiah who is perhaps my best player and should dominate offensively.

This isn't considering the bench, where I have the edge.

Edge: Houston

Bench Play
The key to a great bench is where every player can contribute in more than one aspect of the game and have a certain familiarity with coming off the bench. Defensively with Parker and Rice being the two worst defenders on either bench (one of them being average at best, while the other being regarded as below average), the Rockets should definitely have the edge defensively in terms of benches.

I think Myth has built a great bench that shouldn't have chemistry problems, but mine's a more proven commodity with two 6MOY, and others having experience off the bench or being class role players that do whatever it takes to win. Rice is the best offensive player off the bench, Parker perhaps the third best, but when considering my players have proven they can come in off the bench (like they've done for their careers) and not only provide a spark on the offensive end, they affect the game on the defensive end as well.

Myth might have more talent off the bench, but considering my bench is a more proven commodity leads me to believe the Rockets bench will be more productive on both ends of the floor.

Edge: Houston

Time to break some myths about my team (and yes pun FULLY intended)

1.) Alonzo Mourning was on Patrick Ewing's level

There was some discussion earlier where few mentioned that Alonzo was not only on Ewing's level, but at a higher level. Either that shows complete disregard for what both players did in their primes or shows further more that Ewing is perhaps the most underrated player to have ever played the game.

In 22 games from the 92-02 seasons, the head to head stats are pretty telling ESPECIALLY considering Ewing's play dropped off after the 97 season and Mourning after the 99 season and played at a higher level from that point on as well. If anything these stats should heavily favor Zo.

Ewing: 24.1 points/10.8 rebounds/1.6 assists/2.4 blocks/2.5 TO/.495 FG%
Mourning: 20.9 points/10.5 rebounds/1.3 assists/3.1 blocks/3.7 TO/.462 FG%

For Ewing to play at that high level despite dropping off sooner, should tell you how much he must have dominated Mounring earlier in his career (and in Mourning's case, he doesn't really have a "prime" much like Duncan where his game was very similar from the day he stepped onto the NBA hardwood to the end of his athletic days).

1992 season (season after the prime years chosen)-
1st- 28 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks on 13-26.
2nd- 30 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks on 11-20

1993 season (two seasons after prime years chosen)-
1st- 43 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 blocks on 20-32
2nd-39 points, 13 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 blocks on 16-28

It obviously shows Mourning didn't do much to stop his game, and if your gonna argue that Mourning was still in his first two years (which are extremely comparable to the years Myth are using) then I could say this wasn't Ewing at his absolute most dominant prime.

They even faced off in the playoffs (where Ewing won both head to head and team wise):

Mourning: 23.8 points//9.8 rebounds//1.8 assists//3.0 blocks//4.7 TO//.451 FG%
Ewing: 26.0 points//10.6 rebounds//3.2 assists//2.2 blocks//2.4 TO//.484 FG%

What's interesting about all these are that Mourning's FG% and turnovers when playing Ewing dramatically worsen as compared to Ewing who doesn't seem to get affected.

Prime Season Statistics

Ewing

Code: Select all

Season   GM  MIN    FG%   3P%  FT%  REB   AST  STL  BLK   PTS
1989-90  82  38.6  .551  .250  .775  10.9  2.2  4.0  1.0  28.6
1990-91  81  38.3  .514  .000  .745  11.2  3.0  3.2  1.0  26.6

Mourning

Code: Select all

Season   GM  MIN    FG%   3P%  FT%  REB   AST  STL  BLK   PTS
1998-99  46  38.1  .511  .000  .652  11.0 1.6  3.9  0.7  20.1
1999-00  79  34.8  .551  .000  .711  9.5  1.6  3.7  1.5  21.7

So in comparison, Ewing is the far more prolific scorer on better efficiency (considering FT%), better rebounder, much better passer, and a comparable shot-blocker with similar man to man defense. And it proves, this type of edge continues into the head to head matchups shown above and how Ewing led teams seemed to have the advantage against Mourning led teams.

Point in all this? Mourning won't do anything stop Ewing and he'll definitely have the considerable edge in this matchup.

Positional Matchup
Was gonna do a more detailed one, but then I realized penbeast's post actually contained Myth's writeup (everything up to this point was written before I read Myth's writeup), and I agreed on most of it (that I have the edge in the backcourt, while he has the edge at SF and PF to an extent) and obviously disagreed with Mourning-Ewing being similar (as shown above). I'll just emphasize more what I feel gives me the edge in this series.

-Isiah will dominate this matchup, Price was never noted for his defense and despite Isiah's young age, he was a monster playoff performer and one of the most poised players in the league. When your a poised and established player, lack of experience in these type of competitions is overrated (more so in an All-Time league).

Overall
Myth, you've built a terrific team around one of my faves all time in the Docta, but overall with the Rockets having the edge at 3/5 starting positions, a more productive 2-way bench, a stronger defense designed to stop your team with comparable offense (3 of the top 4 scorers belong to me) should lead me to victory.

GO ROCKETS!

Might add more later..

[Myth_Breaker]

REBUTTAL

- I don’t know what happened to basketballreference.com since I can’t find playoff head-to-head comparison option I saw before: I’ll try to complete the data later. Yet regardless of individual stats Ewing-Zo playoff record equals 13-11, so Mourning lacks only 1 win to achieve a tie vs. Pat not only in regular season, but also in playoffs. Forgive me for saying that this one game isn’t a good enough reason to believe that Ewing is a level above prime Zo…

- But as to you mentioning Ewing scoring his personal high in 1990, etc., what is supposed to suggest his peak being better than Zo’s peak, it’s actually result of fundamental difference between setting reference periods by you and by me. You chose most impressive individual statistical seasons of Ewing or Isiah, so seasons when their teams had worse records and weren’t contenders, but leaders had instead opportunity for chucking as many shots as they wanted. While I selected years when my players lead his teams to better results, even sacrifying their personal stats in the way – what was also appreciated by awards’ voters. That’s why I decided to take Price not in his 89-90 version, but in 92-93 version. And I feel I did a right thing by selecting seasons worthy from both individual and team standpoint, while you are deluded if thinking that 1990 Ewing is better than Ewing in 1992 – when Knicks fought Bulls the hardest - just because of a couple additional points or young Isiah is better than Finals MVP Isiah. Stats are just worth more in stacked and successful teams, where there is more guys to compete for shots or rebounds and where stars tend to play fewer minutes – plus ballers playing for such teams gain experience, knowledge have to win and other intangibles - and I must underline here that average record of my guys’ reference seasons is well above 50 wins, so these are not empty stats, unlike T-Mac’s from 2003 or Isiah’s from 1985! That’s why your also wrong when suggesting that Mourning had no real prime just because his numbers remained steady throughout his career (until disease, of course). It’s simple truth that his 20/10/3 seasons in >50-win teams have more value than similar statistic seasons in .500 teams: if Zo in his prime played for the latter, he should achieve 25/12 without major problems.

- But thanks for agreeing with me that Oakley is merely garbage offensive player. I refrained from saying that you’re playing 3 on 5 in offense since Oak – unlike Bowen - at least exceeded this symbolical 10 ppg in his prime, but if you insist: OK, so Rasheed’s defense on Oakley is less relevant. But you shot yourself in the foot by highlighting this: it means that Sheed has a freedom to double Ewing in the post! And it’s the moment when even the most avid fans of thesis about peak Ewing being above peak Zo must capitulate when facing the facts: Ewing covered by both Zo and Wallace has no chance to outproduce Mourning. If you add the fact that I have excellent backup at 4-5 in Jermaine, who is 3rd best bigman in both squads, and obvious massive advantage of Erving/Rice over Bowen/Horry, there is no doubt that my frontcourt is going to outproduce yours. And teams with superior frontcourts win in the playoffs in like 90% of matchups…

- Rebounding: Oakley still has to respect Sheed’s shot and guard him up to 3-point line, what – as I’ve mentioned – will limit Oak’s rebounding advantage in PF matchup. I also have >10-rpg players in Jermaine and K. Washington whom my opponent failed to mention and will play them appropriately if needing more power on the boards. So Houston’s supposed advantage on the boards is negligible, if exists at all (remember e.g. Dr J’s boards are worth more than T-Mac’s due to being collected in more stacked squad with better teammates competing for rebounds).

- Thought about Sheed and Zo together on Pat is even more scary if you remember that the latter regularly allowed to get into his head even by freakin’ Bill Cartwright. Intimidated by Bill Cartwright – does it sound like someone who’s able to lead his team to the ‘chip? Not incidentally the whole Ewing’s career was full of unfulfilled promises and repetitive empty guarantees for fans that this time it is certainly our season. And if you bring MJ argument, those Knicks weren’t losing only to Jordan’s Bulls. And I’m not even talking about Rockets – though it’s worth noting that outside their leader New York was much deeper team with much superior coach and only Hakeem’s domination on Ewing changed the tide of the series. But what about 1995 and losing to Pacers, who featured merely good role player - Rik Smits in the middle and whose best player was Reggie, who - with the whole due respect - is only borderline HoFer, not Top-50 player in history like Ewing? Or about losing in 5 to the same team in 1998? Or almost losing to Jordan-less Bulls in 1994?! Or the fact that when Ewing led Knicks in 1999, they were tied 2-2 with Indiana, and only after he went down with injury, they won next 2 games led by Sprewell and Houston! Looks like serious history of underachieving as a 1st option…
And if you bring up Zo’s Heat losing to Knicks in 1998-99: firstly, I don’t argue that Mourning is better player/leader than Pat, but that difference between their peaks is negligible. Secondly and more important, Zo is only my 2nd option. Ewing is your 1st or tied for 1st. No matter how you spin this, arguments about first option not getting it done are far more troubling than in case of second option.

- What makes Rockets’ situation even worse is the fact that analogical accusation may be formulated against their option 1st or 1st a) in McGrady. We all remember his infamous statement “it’s good to be finally in the 2nd round” when leading 3-1 over Pistons, only to lose next 3 games and become eliminated. Guess what? It’s 5 years later and Me-Mac still didn’t go past 1st round. Of course, you may bring excuses about injuries, etc., but the indisputable fact remains: Tracy isn’t playoff-tested enough to trust him as decisive factor even in real NBA, lest in our like 500% more talented Golden Era League.

- While writing about likely tensions between Isiah and Ewing, I forgot to add that probability of Isiah’s mutiny is further amplified by the fact that in your team his not going to be 2nd, but only distant 3rd offensive option (and this fact also limits impact that his clutchness may have on making up for Ewing’s and T-Mac’s choking).

- TMACFORMVP, if you admit yourself that he doesn’t expect chemistry problems from my bench, this gives no meaning to argument about Gino and Starks being used to backup role. Thank you, but if chemistry is good, I’d rather have All-NBA Teamers/MVP candidates coming off the bench than winners of relatively inferior award in form of 6th Man of the Year.

- Magic was 6-9, yet 6-4 Dennis Johnson was his best defender. Forgive me for believing that 6-8 Tracy, being much inferior player to Magic, won’t be too hard defensive assignment for DJ. Also Dennis may be helped by Snow, who’s also very good in defense department and once was called by Kobe – another player better than T-Mac – his best defender!

- Last season: were Kidd’s Nets better passing team than the Lakers? Of course not: and here goes down in flames your argument about Rockets having edge in passing only by virtue of having Isiah. Facts are: I have 4 capable playmakers, you have one: what will Houston do when he’s on the bench/in foul trouble? Not to mention that if Zeke has to to focus on scoring when T-Mac/Ewing inevitably fail, it will be double hard for him to be a main creator at the same time…

- 3 out of top 4 scorers belong to you? It’s delusional statement if you take into account these factors: you won’t have enough shots to allow T-Mac average 32 or Ewing average 28 ppg and under every comparable circumstances Erving is more prolific and efficient scorer than Tracy anyway; I enjoy favorable defensive matchups (see below), so my defense will limit your offense more than the other way around; you have only one competent PG to feed your scorers with the ball; and even if not for these earlier points, you have also the weakest offensive links in form of Bowen and Oakley: sorry, but even if Ewing/T-Mac were more prolific in comparable situation than Dr J/Zo – what I doubt anyway - I’d rather have all my starters capable of being at least about 20-ppg scorers than to have 2 28-30 ppg scorers on one hand, and on the other 2 10-13 ppg non-entities, who can be ignored by opponent’s defense without any harm.

- In summary: Warriors have advantage at SF (easily the biggest advantage in this comparison) and PF, Rockets – at PG/SG, at C it’s a tie (and even if some gMs still think there’s some Ewing advantage, you must admit it would be the smallest difference in our matchup). My bench is much more potent. There is no serious chemistry risks about my squad, while such risk exists in case of the Rockets. I have the best overall player in Erving, the best defensive bigman in Mourning, the best perimeter defender in Dennis Johnson, the best 3-point shooters in Price and G. Rice and 3 out of 4 best bench players on both sides. I have much superior frontcourt, what decides like 80% of the time. GSW enjoy substantial edge in experience, also due to featuring 3 players with Finals/playoffs MVP in Erving, Tony Parker and DJ, while my opponents have only Isiah, who’s clutchness cannot make up for Rockets featuring the worst and most limited starter in both squads in Bowen, T-Mac’s and Patrick’s choking and McGrady remaining 2nd round virgin. Though in fact we shouldn’t even count Isiah here since he led his team to ‘chip well after his reference period! I have 4 capable PGs, while Rockets – only Isiah: and my overall ball movement is superior as well. Golden State enjoys more favorable defensive matchups vs. opponents’ stars, with Dennis Johnson containing McGrady better than Bowen – Erving, and Oakley’s negligible scoring output allowing Mourning and Sheed to double Ewing.
What’s more to add? Warriors win 102-92, after Bowen fouling out while trying to guard Dr J, “Small Hands” Ewing committing 3 TOs in the 4th quarter and Me-Mac missing crucial FTs with 5 minutes to go.

[TMACFORMVP]

What does it really mean if I selected Ewing a couple seasons before the years you would have chosen?? If it affected the voters to that much an extent, Ewing would not have made the All-NBA First team over Hakeem and David Robinson. The fact remains that though Zo became more advertised (this being the key word) defensively, it was not to an extent where he turned from a below average defensive player to an above average one. He was consistently a great defender from the day he stepped onto the court to the day he was unfortunately stricken with the illness (he's actually still a very solid defender).

I don't see how you can deny the fact that Ewing should have the considerable edge in this matchup especially when looking at their head to head stats throughout the years (especially when closer to Ewing's prime). In case you missed it

1992 season (season after the prime years chosen)-
1st- 28 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks on 13-26.
2nd- 30 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks on 11-20

1993 season (two seasons after prime years chosen)-
1st- 43 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 blocks on 20-32
2nd-39 points, 13 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 blocks on 16-28

You honestly feel Mourning improved that much defensively that'd he would actually contain a prime and healthy Ewing? You'd honestly be kidding yourself if you did. Also it's hilarious you mention Ewing with his three turnovers in the fourth and completely disregard the fact that Mourning was never a more clutch player himslef and a much higher turnover prone player. Whenever Mourning played Ewing, not only did he get outplayed in all facets of the game, but his turnovers dramatically increased and shot a far worse FG%. A matchup isn't a tie, when one is better in nearly every facet of game and outplays the other almost every time they meet.

Whether it's Ewing from the years I've chosen, or the ones you would have chosen, the result is the same. Ewing would definitely have the considerable edge in this matchup. Stats, intangibles, and almost every factor point that way, yet you completely disregard them like it's nothing.

I can't help but laugh at the ONLY thing you bring up in the Isiah-Price matchup is the experience factor. Once again, experience in an all time competition is overrated considering all the teams are generally equally talented. You don't think that the Isiah I've chosen if given Joe Dumars, and elite defense from players like Rodman, Lambieer, Mahorn and others, that they wouldn't have as great as success if I was using the Isiah that actually played with that cast later in his career. It's a ridiculous argument in this case where the difference of players (Isiah and Price) is HUGE.

Answer me this. Did Chris Paul's so called "inexperience" affect him that much against Jason Kidd's far more battle tested playoff career???? And in this case, CP3 was even less inexperienced than Isiah was and Kidd being a far more accomplished and experienced compared to Mark Price. I'm not even mentioning the far more experienced Tony Parker he outplayed in the second round as well. When the gap between two players is that large, experience is nothing, in which it is that exact case. Your trying too hard to downplay how much an advantage I have against Price in the PG matchup. Isiah will absolutely dominate Price, moreso than any other edge you'd have in the SF position. It's
not even close. Did Isiah's inexperience stop him from having one of the most memorable last minute playoff performances of all time. The guy was born shine on stage and I reiterate, he will absolutely dominate this matchup.

- Last season: were Kidd’s Nets better passing team than the Lakers? Of course not: and here goes down in flames your argument about Rockets having edge in passing only by virtue of having Isiah. Facts are: I have 4 capable playmakers, you have one: what will Houston do when he’s on the bench/in foul trouble? Not to mention that if Zeke has to to focus on scoring when T-Mac/Ewing inevitably fail, it will be double hard for him to be a main creator at the same time…

There are so many things wrong with this statement, I don't know where to begin.

1.) Isiah was a more prolific passer than Kidd was last season. Much higher assist rates and even better AST%. The Pistons were both #1 and #9 in offensive efficiency (both times in top 5 of defensive efficiency as well) in the years I'm using for Isiah. And you know what was so amazing about that season? The Pistons didn't have a single good three point shooter on that squad, which shows how much Isiah must have attacked the basket and got his team easy buckets around the hoop (which led to the #1 most efficient offense).

2.) Did you even read what I wrote? I said not only with Isiah, I have advantages in terms of passing at other positions (specifically considerable edges at the C and SG). Did the Nets have any edges at other positions over the Lakers like I do against you? Kobe, Odom and Gasol are all terrific passers and much (and you honestly can't stress the difference) better than anybody on else on that Nets team. Hell even Luke Walton is a great passer for a player coming off the bench, and they happen to be playing in the triangle which maximizes touches. It'd be quite shocking if the Lakers weren't the better passing team.

3.) Isiah in foul trouble? Come on, he's not guarding a player that actually puts that much pressure on the defense in terms of getting into the paint, in fact Price would be the one sitting the majority of on the bench due to foul trouble. And then who besides Erving will make plays? Mourning has proven he's a high turnover prone player in his career-especially against Ewing. If Eric Snow is capable of running a team's offense (even Parker to an extent) then Ginobili and McGrady can most definitely do that as well.

And there goes down in flames your argument about the Warriors having the passing advantage.

Rebounding: Oakley still has to respect Sheed’s shot and guard him up to 3-point line, what – as I’ve mentioned – will limit Oak’s rebounding advantage in PF matchup. I also have >10-rpg players in Jermaine and K. Washington whom my opponent failed to mention and will play them appropriately if needing more power on the boards. So Houston’s supposed advantage on the boards is negligible, if exists at all (remember e.g. Dr J’s boards are worth more than T-Mac’s due to being collected in more stacked squad with better teammates competing for rebounds).

Even if Oakley will have to respect Sheed's shot (which his offensive game is severely overrated), he's bound to out-rebound Rasheed just due to the fact that he's a very poor rebounder for a player of his skill set and size. And you can bring up Jermaine or Kermit all you want, but Oakley and all my bench big man are all better than those two as well. You can't escape it, starters and reserves I have the clear edge in rebounding in the backcourt and upfront. Erving's edge in rebounding won't outweigh all the edges I have at the other positions. In case you missed it, I did mention Jermaine and Kermit, just happened to have even better rebounders than those two coming off by bench as well.

I never said Oakley was a garbage offensive player, he got a lot of his points off of shots with his rebounding and a terrific mid-range jumper, which were all true. He sure wasn't a liability on the floor, he averaged nearly 15 points on 52%, compared to Sheed with 19 points on 50%. Sheed who's considered a rather tough player wasn't even on the same level of toughness compared to Oakley. Oakley would contain Sheed's game in the post where he'd have to revert to the three point line where he's only a 33-34% shooter and one of the streakiest players in the league. Oakley's impact goes far beyond what the stats show with his toughness, defense, mid-range jumper, second chance oppurtunities and overall fit next to Ewing.

------------

I love how you bring up whatever shortcomings Zo has compared to Ewing doesn't matter just because he's the second option, but repeatedly keep bringing up T-Mac and comparing him to Erving. They have completely different roles on both teams, Mac is my third option on offense and expected to play in the flow of the offense and make the right play, while Erving is expected to carry the scoring load and try to muster enough points to lead them to a victory. The fact that you keep bringing up my third option to compare with your first option should show who has the advantage...

I also don't know how your defense is designed to stop my offense any better than mine is set up to stop yours.

1.) Magic was 6-9, yet 6-4 Dennis Johnson was his best defender.

Look, I'm not comparing McGrady and Magic Johnson because Magic is eternity levels better and they play completely different games, but honestly, just because Magic said that DJ was the best defender on him, didn't mean it was true...

Head2Head-
1984 Finals- 18.0 points/7.7 rebounds/13.6 assists/.560 FG%/.744 FT% ---2.0 steals
1985 Finals- 18.3 points/6.8 rebounds/14.0 assists/.494 FG%/.871 FT%----2.4 steals
1987 Finals- 26.2 points/8.0 rebounds/13.0 assists/.541 FG%/.960 FT%----2.3 steals

Regular Season Stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... =johnsde01
Rounded: 27/6/13 on 50%

Now that's out of the way, didn't seem like he did much to affect his game, and alot had to do with the height advantage Magic had. McGrady's primary offensive arsenal was his high elevation on his jumpshot and over a player that gives up nearly 5" inches wouldn't affect him too much. Again DJ would do a fine job on Mac and make him work, but NOT to the effect that Erving would have to work to score his points. He's being guarded by Bowen that's just as good a perimeter defender that DJ is, but closer in terms of height to Erving and would make him as inefficient as possible. He was a guy that couldn't hurt you from deep nor a guy that lived on the line. He'd have to rely on getting past Bowen and finishing over a much tougher frontline than Myth's team (Erving in the years selected was never that high a volume scorer--nearly 23.5 points per game in the playoffs). He'd have a good series, I'm not going to shut him down, he's too great a player for that, but he'll have to work hard as hell to get them. Not to mention, it's a completely different ball park with Isiah getting you the ball as opposed to Mark Price..

And Eric Snow, honestly? He gives up even more height and has been abused by Mac in the past.

In a 13 game span from 2001-2004, T-Mac averaged

31.3 points per game
8.2 rebounds per game
6.6 assists per game
0.452 FG%

And again, that's my third option compared to your first option. While Ewing, more likely second option has shown he cannot be stopped by Mourning and will outplay him in a game like this, and you having absolutely no answer for my #1 option and closer in Isiah Thomas. I feel I can do a better job on your stars, than you can do on mine, where I have the edge with having one star at a position, you don't.

TMACFORMVP, if you admit yourself that he doesn’t expect chemistry problems from my bench, this gives no meaning to argument about Gino and Starks being used to backup role. Thank you, but if chemistry is good, I’d rather have All-NBA Teamers/MVP candidates coming off the bench than winners of relatively inferior award in form of 6th Man of the Year.

I'm not sure you quite understand what a great bench is, the minute Rice and even Parker to an extent hit the floor, they're a defensive liability. Either Ginobili or Mac that would be on the floor would have a field day for the time Rice is on the floor. My players are PROVEN coming off the bench and for very successful teams. They contribute in more than one aspect of the game and specialize in outproducing other team benches. Assuming the front court is equal both defensively and offensively, the backcourt in which and Starks and Ginobili are both proven as big time players off the bench and once again terrific defensively. I think while my bench is more set up to stop you opposing team bench better while being comparable offensively.

While I don't think it'd be too much a problem for you, it could potentially turn into something big with all-stars in their absolute primes coming off the bench for nearly half the time they're accustomed to getting. My bench in terms of drama has the far bigger advantage.

It's foolish to think it potentially couldn't become a problem.

- 3 out of top 4 scorers belong to you? It’s delusional statement if you take into account these factors: you won’t have enough shots to allow T-Mac average 32 or Ewing average 28 ppg and under every comparable circumstances Erving is more prolific and efficient scorer than Tracy anyway; I enjoy favorable defensive matchups (see below), so my defense will limit your offense more than the other way around; you have only one competent PG to feed your scorers with the ball; and even if not for these earlier points, you have also the weakest offensive links in form of Bowen and Oakley: sorry, but even if Ewing/T-Mac were more prolific in comparable situation than Dr J/Zo – what I doubt anyway - I’d rather have all my starters capable of being at least about 20-ppg scorers than to have 2 28-30 ppg scorers on one hand, and on the other 2 10-13 ppg non-entities, who can be ignored by opponent’s defense without any harm.

What's so delusional? You can't have it both ways, saying that my scorers won't get enough shots and then complaining that I don't have enough offense earlier. Amount of shot attempts won't be a problem, once again Isiah is terrific in terms of sharing the ball and Mac and Ewing would get more than the amount of shots to come close to their averages. Erving is arguably the best scorer considering efficiency, but Ewing, Isiah (especially considering you have no one that can account for him) and Mac are the next three best scorers. I enjoy favorable defensive matchups (see above), so my defense will limit your offense more than the other way around; you have only one average PG to feed your scorers with the ball while I have one of the best play-makers ever.

What makes Rockets’ situation even worse is the fact that analogical accusation may be formulated against their option 1st or 1st a) in McGrady. We all remember his infamous statement “it’s good to be finally in the 2nd round” when leading 3-1 over Pistons, only to lose next 3 games and become eliminated. Guess what? It’s 5 years later and Me-Mac still didn’t go past 1st round. Of course, you may bring excuses about injuries, etc., but the indisputable fact remains: Tracy isn’t playoff-tested enough to trust him as decisive factor even in real NBA, lest in our like 500% more talented Golden Era League.

It's a team game, the fact that McGrady led teams have underachieved only once considering the amount of talent and adversity he's had to go through isn't much of an argument in an all-time league where the talent on every team is roughly equal. And to say he can't be trusted in a playoff situation is just false, it's more like his teammates couldn't be trusted in a playoff series...

01-02: 30.8 ppg/6.3 rpg/5.5 apg on .462
02-03: 31.7 ppg/6.7 rpg/4.7 apg on .448

Honestly, maybe he could have done better in other areas, but he's hardly to blame for losing in the first round. I'd think Laker fans would know best considering Kobe without a supporting cast couldn't get out of the first round either and also blew a 3-1 lead.

In summary, the Rockets have the edge in 3 of the 5 starting positions with the biggest gap being the PG position where the Warriors have absolutely no answer for Isiah, a more cohesive bench unit that's bound to be more productive in terms of all around play, a better defense designed to stop your big guns than set up to stop mine and overall just a better rebounding/defense and passing efficiency team.

[zong]

Vote Rockets, for now


gonna wait til the next 2 writeups are in

[Kosta]

Vote for Rockets.

[TrueLAfan]

Vote: Rockets

[Baller 24]

Vote: Rockets

[Sharpie]

Vote: Warriors

[Warspite]

Tropics vs the Spurs

DRob, Willis, King, Ellis, Kidd
Shaq, Rodman, English, VC, Penny


Every matchup with the Spurs begins and ends with Shaq. The Tropics having played Moses Malone will use the following tactics vs Shaq and the Spurs. Im not going to claim they work or that Shaq will be stopped. You be the judge to what effect it will have on the game and the outcome.

1. Use a 3 man rotation of
7'0 250 and very strong Kevin Willis
6"11" 240 playing the mind games and pulling out the chair Bill Laimbeer
7'1" 240lb DPOY 4BPG David Robinson.

2. Double down useing King or Kidd occasionaly.

3. Force Shaq to play defense guarding the pick and roll of Kidd/DRob and pick and pop of Laimbeer.

4. Useing the illeagal def rules of the 80s force Shaq to play at the top of the FT line in space. Making him a foul magnet with the dribble drive of Kidd.

All of these plans will be put into action and give Shaq differant looks. I still expect Shaq to score 20-25pts unless hes in major foul trouble and plays less than 30mins. If Shaq is limited then this game is pretty much decided.

So the Tropics will be doubleing off of Penny, Rodman and at times English allowing them to shoot 3s. English is maybe the worst 3pt shooter in the ATL and Penny is subpar. They will pick there spots not always bringing a doble team and try to limit dribble penatration. Funneling drives into DRob is my def strategy. Stopping VC or English will be very tough. I just want them taking long range shots or off balance runers over 7fters. Every 43-46% FGA that the Spurs take is one less shot Shaq gets and for my team thats a moral victory.

On offense the Tropics are going to mix up the Kidd/DRob pick and roll along with the double screen down low to King/Dantley on the block. The Tropics believe there SFs are as much or more unguardable than Shaq. VS Shaq the Tropics have a DPOY player to guard him while King/Dantley are being guarded by subpar defenders. I would expect Rodman to be switched on King after English gets in foul trouble but that again takes away from the offensive player that English is to bring in X who also is in big trouble having to guard 7ft Kevin Willis or D Robinson. The Tropics will use the matchups and try to force double teams. The other adv the Tropics have is the outside shooting of Ellis to create more space for post players to isolate. I also believe Kidd can create and get into the paint better than Penny and most certainly will have an easier time as Kidd is the much better defender.

As the game goes more uptempo the Spurs can take advantage of VC, Penny but they also limit Shaq. As the game goes uptempo it allows DRob to be more productive on offense and defense.

I honestly have no idea who is the better team on the boards. Rodman/Willis DRob/Shaq Penny/Kidd realy cancel each other out. The Tropics with Bill Laimbeer on the bench in a 6th man role might very well be the decideing factor or at least a great equalizer. I believe both teams will want to get transition offense and both will have a high priority on transistion defense. Both teams have big PGs and SGs so should be above avg at both transition offense and defense.

This matchup is very tough and it comes down to Shaqs effectiveness vs the Tropics Frontcourt being more or less effective than King/Dantley vs the Spurs SFs. the Tropics will be able to shoot better outside but the Spurs are better slashers. I like the balance of the Tropics vs the one man gang of the Spurs.

[WesWesley]

vote: Warriors. will wait for tsherkin to post something before voting.

[tsherkin]

Can't post this now because it's too in-depth and I am at work. Will work on this when I get home tonight, unquestionably. Good luck, Warspite; it sucks that one of us has to lose this round because I respect your team quite a lot.

[penbeast0]

Rockets . . . will wait for tsherkin's post for the other matchup

[WesWesley]

I just realized that the Flint Tropics vs. Spurs match-up is from the movie semi-pro.

If Warspite can somehow get Jackie Moon on his squad, he should win the whole thing.

[tsherkin]

OK, I have overcome fever, 60-hour workweeks and moving into a new place. I am now officially ready to duke it out with Warspite and his clever Flint Tropics team...

To begin with, the Spurs will not be starting Alex English in this matchup; instead, Vince Carter will move to the and we will start Hersey Hawkins, with English coming off the bench.

This serves the dual purposes of increasing our defensive efficacy while helping us to present a considerably more dangerous defensive presence. While Hawkins gives up height to Ellis, it is not a major disadvantage, particularly given how Ellis most liked to score.

The extra three-point shooting will also help to counter the standard anti-Shaq tactic of throwing lots of big bodies with fouls at him.

Given our shooting prowess and ball-handlers, combined with Shaq's presence, the Spurs will continue to run the triple-post offense, exploiting Shaq and Carter as the primary isolation scorers, shifting to Penny as necessary and exploiting Carter and Hawkins (and, to a lesser extent, Penny) as outside shooters to help space the floor.

Shaq, of course, has generally pounded Kevin Willis whenever they have met, though Willis has only started 16 of their 30 matchups. Either way, he has a career average of 26 ppg on 56.4% against Kevin Willis, adding over 12 rpg to the mix as well. Willis does little to frustrate Shaq, especially because he does not enjoy the strength advantage he commonly held over his opponents.

Likewise, Shaq has averaged 26/12 against D-Rob in their 23 matchups, on 53.6% shooting. D-Rob obviously had some effect on Shaq (most notably when he was younger), but not enough to really make a big impact... and he wasn't playing Shaq on teams this well-balanced in the times when Shaq had his worst performances, either. Good teams, but not great teams.

Shaq's efficacy will remain where it needs to be in order for this team to win.

It is also important to note that San Antonio's subs are generally of significant defensive value; Xavier McDaniel and Mookie Blaylock, the primary subs, will change the team's disposition on perimeter defense (with Blaylock also adding more outside shooting). Elvin Hayes will add some shot-blocking and key rebounding when he comes in, as well.

Another major aid to the Spurs is that Kidd is a very weak offensive player. While in later years of his career he has developed into a semi-noteworthy three-point shooter, he is fairly poor finishing around the rim and has nothing resembling a mid-range game. 6'4, one would expect him to have a post game against smaller guards, however he has been fairly ineffective throughout his career in this manner. His career eFG% is 45.3%, his TS% never exceeding 52.7% (and he's had a TS% of 50%+ only 7 of his 14 seasons). Kidd's not an efficient offensive tool.

Too, his career playoff 3P% (which is more important in a scenario like this) is 30.2%, though it has improved markedly the last two seasons.

Still, Kidd is primarily a weak offensive weapon and his presence largely cancels out the fairly anemic offense provided by my own Dennis Rodman.

That leaves us, ITO starting lineups, with Shaq/D-Rob, Carter/King, Hawkins/Ellis and I have Penny Hardaway.

King is primarily a post-up scorer and his athletic advantage doesn't exist against Vince. Too, I have Shaq to rotate over and clog the paint and Rodman rotating behind him to prevent secondary baskets by D-Rob. Hawkins will be all over Ellis, even with the height advantage and Penny has height and athletic advantages on Kidd... as well as the ability to score from pretty well anywhere.

The best part about this matchup is that while the interior defense of the Tropics is quite good (man and help from D-Rob, man D from Willis), it's perimeter defense is fairly poor, aside from Kidd. Ellis and King will be exploited mercilessly.

Contrast that to the Spurs, who have an excellent defender at the 4, a solid man AND help defender at the 2 (especially in the prime we're discussing, where he won two of his All-Defensive selections) to go with Hersey Hawkins (who made some appearances on the All-Defensive teams) and Penny, who played good, but not outstanding defense.

Vince Carter, especially with the amount of talent around him, is going to score willy-nilly all over Bernard King, at least well enough to match Bernard. Shaq will out-duel Robinson, Willis won't be that significant in general (especially with Rodman on him and Shaq helping) and of course, Hawkins and Ellis will cancel eachother out at best... leaving Penny to outduel Kidd.

Ultimately, the frontcourt authority of Shaq will be supported too readily by the outside shooting of Carter and Hawkins, as well as the slashing danger presented by Carter and Penny, for the Tropics to emerge victorious from this match.

[Warspite]

Halftime rebutal

1. The Spurs have a serious delima in that they realise that if they go big they cant score enough pts and if they go small they cant defend. They will go small in an effort to outscore the Tropics.

2. The Spurs made a lineup change because they admit they cant matchup. The Spurs have decided that there best post defender is Vince Carter and that he gives them the best chance to slow down the Tropics best scorer. I repeat the Spurs best post defender is Vince Carter. Backing VC up is the the great stopper Alex English

3. Dale Ellis avg 26ppg on 20FGA. He took less than four 3ptapg and made less than 2 and still scored 26ppg. Ellis with a 5 inch adv over Hawkins is still scoring 20ppg from 2pt range. he is a 50% shooter that will score at a better clip with the height adv.

4. The Spurs now are the smallest lineup in the ATL with there 2nd tallest player being the PG Penny Hardaway. The team is 6'3" 6'6" 6'6" 6'7" 7'1"


I just dont see the benefit of the Spurs having both Shaq and a 3 guard offense. They want to run but also slow it down to use Shaq.

The Spurs best offensive players are at the C and SF while there best defenders are SG and PF

The Tropics best defenders are C and PG while there best scorers are SF and SG.

Rodmans great defense is useless guarding the 5th option Kevin Willis while the teams worst defender is guarding the Tropics #1 option.