RealGM All Time List # 1 Spot

[Baller 24]

Voting Will End At 12AM Tomorrow

Cast a vote, and nominate a player please.

Only judges that have asked to be on the panel can vote, and only their vote will be counted, if you were in the previous panel about 2 yrs ago, you are welcome to vote, and if you would like to be apart of the panel just simply post in the stickied RealGM all time 100 list.

This is based on the players career, rather then peak, just to be clear.

Michael Jordan

# 6x NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
# 5x NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
# 14x NBA All-Star (1985-1993, 1996-1998, 2002-2003)
# 6x NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998)
# 1x NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
# 10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1993, 1996-1998)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1985)
# 9x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1988-1993, 1996-1998)
# 1985 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1985 NBA All-Rookie Team
# 3x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
# 2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest winner (1987, 1988)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Career Stats
Points 32,292
Rebound 6,672
Assists 5,633

Wilt Chamberlain

* 2x NBA champion (1967, 1972)
* 4x NBA MVP (1960, 1966-1968)
* 13x NBA All-Star (1960-1969, 1971-1973)
* 1x NBA Finals MVP (1972)
* 7x All-NBA First Team Selection (1960-1962, 1964, 1966-1968)
* 3x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1963, 1965, 1972)
* 2x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1972-1973)
* 1960 NBA Rookie of the Year
* 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1960)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* NBA 35th Anniversary Team
Career stats
Points 31,419
Rebounds 23,924
Assists 4,643

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

# 6x NBA Champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988
# 6x NBA MVP (1971-1972, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980)
# 19x NBA All-Star (1970-1977, 1979-1989)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
# 10x All-NBA First Team Selection (1971-1973, 1974, 1976-1977, 1980-1981, 1984, 1986)
# 5x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1970, 1978-1979, 1983, 1985)
# 5x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1974-1975, 1979-1981)
# 6x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1970-1971, 1976-1978, 1984)
# 1970 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1970 NBA All-Rookie Team
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Career stats
Points 38,387
Rebounds 17,440
Blocks 3,189

Bill Russell

* 11x NBA Champion (1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969)
* 5x NBA MVP (1958, 1961-1963, 1965)
* 12x NBA All-Star (1958-1969)
* 3x All-NBA First Team Selection (1959, 1963, 1965)
* 8x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1958, 1960-1962, 1964, 1966-1968)
* 1x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1969)
* 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* NBA 35th Anniversary Team
* NBA 25th Anniversary Team
Career stats
Points 14,522
Rebounds 21,620
Assists 4,100

Magic Johnson


* 5× NBA Champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
* 3× NBA MVP (1987, 1989–1990)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
* 9× All-NBA First Team Selection (1983–1991)
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1982)
* 12× All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
* 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
* 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Career stats
Points 17,707
Rebounds 6,559
Assists 10,141

Larry Bird

# 3x NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
# 3x NBA MVP (1984-1986)
# 12x All-Star (1980-1988, 1990-1992)
# 2x NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
# 9x All-NBA First Team Selection (1980-1988)
# 1x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1990)
# 3x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1982-1984)
# 1980 NBA Rookie of the Year
# 1980 NBA All-Rookie Team
# 1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1982)
# 3x NBA Three-Point Shootout winner (1986-1988)
# NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Career stats
Points 21,791
Assists 5,695
Steals 1,556

[Warspite]

Vote: Wilt Chamberlain
Nominate: Hakeem the Dream

[Doctor MJ]

My reasoning:

Best non-center: Obviously Jordan.
Best center: Tough.

Wilt vs Russell
Wilt couldn't have kept up long enough to win 11 titles. He just didn't have the mentality. I pick Russell.

Russell vs Kareem
Kareem won a slew of titles all well having epic longevity, and he was a superstar on both ends. I pick Kareem.

Kareem vs Jordan
Tough, but Jordan's got the 2-way game, was a strong leader, and won his titles as the #1 guy on his club.

Vote: Michael Jordan
Nomination: Tim Duncan

[Baller 24]

Vote: MJ

Nominate: In a VERY tough decision I'm going to go with Hakeem

[ronnymac2]

For me, this is between Jordan and Wilt. Among these 6, I'd take these 2 as the best players and guys I'd take for my team first. Both have all the accomplishments and stats and records. They have titles. They are completely dominant players. I'll take Jordan as my GOAT though. He has absolutely no weakness. His aggressive play made him an unstoppable player. He always looked to get the high percentage shot, and as a guard, he gets to control the ball. He was able to become an all-time great perimeter defender. He became one of the best team players ever. He led his team to 2 3-peats, a very impressive accomplishment. It's amazingly close, and I certainly see an argument for Wilt (I also believe 6 other players have a legit claim to GOAT), but I take mj here.

I vote Michael Jordan.

I nominate Shaquille O'Neal.

[TMACFORMVP]

Comes down to Chamberlain, Jordan and Kareem for me.

When considering career, Kareem's longevity and ability to play at high level for such a long time, automatically puts him in the discussion. He's had just as much success as Jordan, as those two, Magic and Russell are probably the biggest winners to have ever played. In terms of who's played more a role on their winning teams, Kareem was the main man in Milwaukee, but was relegated to the second option when the Magic came into LA. Jordan and as good as Pippen was, was clearly the best player and most essential player to the Bulls dominance in the 90's.

In terms of winning, it's Jordan, Kareem and Wilt in that order pretty clearly for me when considering everything.

After winning, it's mainly the accolades, awards, stats and just flat out dominance. As dominant a player Kareem was, I think he was slightly below Jordan and Wilt in that department. What can you not say about Wilt, the guy could do anything on the floor. Led the league once in total assists, arguably the greatest rebounder and scorer of all time. Was also a terrific defender and a shame they didn't record block numbers then to see how truly a dominant shot blocking force, and and Russell were. I've honestly only seen one game of Wilt's, the clinching game in the 1972 Finals and then he was on the downfall of his career, and both hands HEAVILY wrapped due to being injured earlier in the series, and the guy looking like he wasn't even trying put up 24/28/9/8 and a big impact. He was far ahead of his peers in terms of athleticism and just sheer force. Then again, he was a high volume player in his prime, nearly 40 shots and 17 FT attempts per game to reach that 50 points per game. I honestly doubt he'd be able to not only play the minutes it'd require, but the shot attempts and FT attempts are unheard of. Then considering dominance is defined in big games, Wilt throughout his career has come short especially when compared to a guy like Jordan, that's arguably the greatest big game performer to have ever played.

I think factoring in everything, wins, dominance and career accomplishments and accolades, Jordan's got the best of both worlds compared with the others and deserves the #1 spot.

Vote: Michael Jordan

In terms of nomination, that also comes down to three players, Duncan, Hakeem and Shaq.

In terms of success, Duncan and Shaq have the clear edge, Duncan was the #1 option on all 4 championship teams, while Shaq was the #1 option on only three of those teams, but he was arguably more dominant in those three championships than Duncan was for the overall four. Hakeem was a winner too, especially considering the lack of supporting cast compared to the other two, but unfortunately that's not really enough to say Hakeem was just as much a winner as Duncan or Shaq.

In terms of dominance, I think Shaq was the most dominant player in his peak, though I'd personally prefer Hakeem because he was more well rounded especially on the defensive end (pick and rolls, lol). I actually would feel in terms of overall career resume, Duncan might have both beat, but seeing how each played, I honestly don't feel right putting Duncan over Shaq/Hakeem, just due to the fact he was never AS dominant as those two were in their respective peak. I think what hurts Shaq when in comparison to Hakeem is the longevity factor and that Shaq was never a guy that was healthy throughout the regular season even during his peak (thus only the one MVP).

It's really too tough to decide, whenever Hakeem-Shaq comes up. Duncan has overall the best accomplishments and quietly that dominant force, but was never as quite dominant as a Hakeem/Shaq. Shaq has the peak play and championships, while Hakeem has the overall all around game and one of the more memorable finals run considering they were underdogs. I just prefer Hakeem's style of play much more, but Shaq's two extra championships is hard to discount.

As of now, maybe subject to change (yes I know chicken way out). I really want to vote Shaq, but I'm a sucker for Hakeem's game. I'm gonna sleep on this, haha.

Nominate: Hakeem Olajuwon

[Myth_Breaker]

Vote: Wilt Chamberlain
Nominate: Hakeem the Dream

These are my votes as well.

[Harry10]

Vote: Magic Johnson
Nominate: Tim Duncan

[NO-KG-AI]

I was on the last panel, and I'll throw in my 2 cents here I guess.... if the vote doesn't count, oh well, I'll do it anyway

My GOAT is Michael Jordan, I might be a tad biased, I try to take personal bias out of all selections, but I do vividly remember Michael Jordan, and I'm simply not old enough to have watched Wilt Chamberlain....

But Michael Jordan doesn't really have any flaws in his resume, he's number 1 in career PER for both regular Season and playoffs IIRC, he's a dominant two way player, he excelled in every statistical category, he raised his play in big games, he dominated his era singularly and team wise like no other. He has rings and team success above the statistical monster Wilt, and he has comparably dominant stats and accolades, and his impact on the game of basketball is unmatched worldwide.

The Nomination comes down to Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan to me.

For my nomination, I'm going with Shaquille O'Neal, he's been to the finals with 4 different teams, his MVP's and titles are matched by Duncan, but Duncan has never felt like the dominant force that Shaq was, and when they were playing each other, Shaq felt a level above as a player...

Hakeem doesn't have the sustained team success(maybe not his fault) to match Shaq IMO. Shaq is incredibly dominant offensively in comparison to these two, and he and Hakeem both raised their level of play substantially in the playoffs. I happen to think the gap was smaller defensively with these three than offensively, I think Shaq's offense was much more potent.

These three are fairly close, but Duncan and Shaq are close in career accomplishments, Shaq and Dream have the dominant peaks, but Shaq has them both beat in heads up records, and statistically heads up, by a lot.

I'm going with:

GOAT Vote: Michael Jordan

Nomination: Shaquille O'Neal

[tkb]

Vote: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nominate: Hakeem Olajuwon

[shawngoat23]

Bird and Magic
The immortal six all have legitimate cases as GOAT, but to me, Bird and Magic have the weakest claims. It seems to me that Michael Jordan simply has a stronger case than them, with more dominant statistics and more titles despite weaker teammates. I believe that you can only make two real cases for them: 1) they won in the strongest era of basketball and 2) they were consummate team players like no others. I don't believe the second point is particularly strong, and I don't believe their body of work measures up to Jordan (let alone with the great centers to have played the game).

Russell
I next eliminate Bill Russell from the list. I feel he has a strong case for GOAT, purely by virtue of his 11 championships; but one can just as easily argue that he is at the bottom of the immortal six because of his statistics, which suffer only in comparison in this stratified air. One can qualify the title of GOAT to "the greatest winner of all time", which Bill Russell certainly is, but that is too superficial an argument to pass muster.

His 11 rings are certainly impressive, but at the same time, the league was much smaller in the 1960s. One might argue that this meant for less bottom-feeder teams, but the fact remains that it is simply more difficult to win in a league of 24-30 teams than in a league of 8-14. In fact, in a RealGM poll a few months back, a majority of respondents voted the Bulls' six championships in the 90s as more impressive than the Celtics' eleven during the Russell era. While I disagree, I also believe that Russell's 11 championships are not as impressive as one might gather from first glance.

Furthermore, Russell had stacked teams--Havlicek, Cousy, Ramsey, Heinsohn, Jones x2, etc. are all Hall of Famers. I do acknowledge that some of the more marginal players might not be HOF were it not for Russell, and I also concede that there were other great teams of the era. But I also maintain that the 50s-60s were an era of relatively little parity.

Given his relatively weak statistics (but I repeat, only in comparison with the other GOAT candidates), one is left to argue his defensive impact and his intangibles. While these are important aspects of the game, I simply do not believe he has the strongest claim to GOAT.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hands down the greatest college player of all-time. Boasts both extremely gaudy stats and an extensive list of accolades, including six NBA championships and six MVPs. Tremendous presence on both ends of the floor, and more than worthy as a GOAT candidate. His skyhook over Cowens is one of the clutchest game winners ever by a big man, and his twenty years of solid play puts all others to shame. There is little to nitpick about at his resume, but such exacting scrutiny is necessary when we are debating the greatest player of all-time.

While Cap would have won many MVPs no matter what era he played in, I believe he benefited--at least to some extent--by playing his early years in what I believe to be the weakest era of the NBA. He accumulated four of his six MVPs in the pre-merger NBA, and while he may very well have been the best player in either league, I would say that this at least leaves some room for questioning.

Nor can I say that Kareem led his team to six rings. Of his six rings, at least three, and perhaps even four, came as second-fiddle or worse. In still another Finals, the Lakers won in his absence with the rookie Magic Johnson leading the team to victory in the clincher. And finally, I cannot in good faith vote as the greatest of all-time a player who was dominated so thoroughly by Moses Malone in the 1983 Finals, an embarrassing sweep.

Wilt Chamberlain
Wilt Chamberlain is the most statistically dominant player of all-time, and he would be my choice for MDE. He is also the most physically imposing player of all-time, and his legendary athletic (and womanizing) feats are well documented. That said, in comparison to these other legends, Wilt was a loser--and I understand that might sound ridiculous.

But Wilt won only two championships, and I simply do not buy the excuse that the Celtics were that much more stacked. With teammates like Paul Arizin, Nate Thurmond, Billy Cunningham, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Elgin Baylor, and Jerry West, the lack of championships would simply be unacceptable as GOAT-material for any player lacking his statistical dominance.

Furthermore, it was not merely because his teammates fell to step up, but Wilt's failures in key moments of the NBA Finals have been chronicled repeatedly throughout these forums. Nowhere was this more evident than in the 1969 NBA Finals, where Wilt contributed four points in Game 2, scored merely two in Game 6, and pulled up lame in the waning minutes of Game 7.

The following paragraph may sound harsh, and I know that I am overstating the case to drive home the point. Wilt was, by comparison, a loser, and while I never watched him play, from contemporary quotes, it seems to me that once he won his first ring, he seemed more interested in collecting stats than in winning championships. Moreover, he seems to me a regular-season player, and I would likely acknowledge that he was the greatest regular-season player of all-time. But champions and legends are forged in the playoffs, and especially in the Finals, not in track meets and in weight rooms, and certainly not in small stadiums against the Darrell Imhoffs of the world; with Wilt's poor resume on the game's biggest stages, I do not acknowledge him as the greatest player of all-time.

Michael Jordan
Here is a player who boasts both the gaudy regular-season statistics and accolades. Unlike most players, including the five above, his statistics were still more impressive in the postseason; and while he certainly did not win six championships without substantial help, he was without question the best player in all of his teams. Jordan, more than anything else, was a player with a tremendous will to win and an ability to come through in the clutch that is unparalleled even by the other members of the immortal six.

There is little that one can complain about with respect to his resume. Some cite his failures early in his career, but that is extremely narrow-minded given what transpired in the 90s. Some call him a selfish volume scorer, but they could not be more wrong. Jordan scored with ruthlessly high efficiency, and moreover, was one of the best playmaking wings and one of the ten best rebounding guards ever. He is one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever, especially on the help side, as he boasts the third-most steals per game of all-time and the most career blocks of any guard. Some would say that he was overly concerned with statistics, but I counter that his regular season statistics did not do him justice, as he showed consistently throughout his career that he was able to elevate his play still more when it mattered, and against better competition at that. The only argument I would grant is that Jordan did not win his championships in the golden age, as Magic and Bird had, but I also point out that Jordan had less help during his career than anyone else in the immortal six.

Vote: Michael Jordan

Contenders for nomination: Jerry West, after considering a pool of Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Oscar, Moses, and Erving. I know this will be an unpopular pick, so let me try to justify it. Note: these are not necessarily my #7-13.

He was a consummate team player and offered both impressive offensive contributions and lockdown defense. Tremendous scorer, rebounder, and playmaker. As many (TrueLAFan?) have previous stated, his defensive statistics--if they had been kept--would be mind-boggling. And more importantly, I believe his stats don't do him justice. Few players--most prominently Jordan--are able to step up their games even more in the postseason against superior competition.

Thus, even though he only has one ring--the only real knock against him--West is a champion to me, a player who put up superhuman efforts time and time again only to fall just short in Game 7, through no fault of his own. It means more to me that he gave transcendent efforts in many Finals--especially 1969--and lost, than it does that other players had mediocre or simply good performances in winning efforts. Or God forbid, a player put up an atrocious performance like Shaq in 2006 and get credited with a championship while West gets the shaft.

[randomhero423]

Vote: Michael Jordan. Kareem was very close to taking it.
Nominate: Hakeem Olajwon

[FJS]

Oh, funny
a closed thread only for a few (20) in a forum of thousands of posters.... unfair.

[JordansBulls]

The top 3 are Jordan, Kareem and Wilt because all were great on both ends and have the numbers but I choose Michael Jordan and here a few reasons why.

-Most scoring titles—10
-Most NBA Finals MVP awards—6
-Highest career scoring average—30.12
-Highest career scoring average playoffs— 33.45
-Highest career scoring average finals (12 games) - 33.57
-Most consecutive games scoring in double figures—866
-Highest single series scoring average NBA Finals—41.0 (1993)
-Highest PER - 27.91
-Never averaged less than 27.3 ppg in any playoff series

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan (no one else has more than 4)

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan (no one else has even half that all time)

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

Most Playoff Points
5987 by Michael Jordan

"Never getting outplayed in by an opponent over the course of a playoff series"

otherwise known as

"Came out of every playoff series looking like the best player on the court"

Forget numbers and figures, that record is what makes him GOAT.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/almanac_playoff_scoring_leaders/


MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record and is the only player to win multiple titles while leading the league in scoring.

Vote: Michael Jordan
Nominate: Hakeem Olajuwon

[TrueLAfan]

Vote: Kareem. The big three is a subjective choice, IMO. Fifteen years from now, it will be a pick 'em between Jordan and Kareem and Wilt. We're still in the last throes of the Jordan era now. I can;'t help but pick Kareem. When he was on miserable teams (the 1975 Bucks and 1976 Lakers, with average Cs, would have been 20 win teams), he made them adequate. Any team even slightly better than awful was a playoff team. The late 1960s to the early 1980s was the Golden Age of the C; there has never been a concentration of strength at the position to match it. Wilt, Unseld, Thurmond, Bellamy, Cowens, Lanier, McAdoo, Walton, Malone, Sikma, Parish and Parish all had at least 3 top level seasons; most had a lot more. Kareem won 6 MVPs in that period, and was a great player for 5-6 years more after that. He won as many titles as anybody, was as dominant as anybody, and did it for the longest period.

Nominate: Jerry West. I'm with shawngoat here. West was great in his time period; he'd be better now. Most players have the greatest seasons (*cough*Shaq*cough*) in eras that are conducive to their style of play. West played in an era without the three, where fewer fouls were called per possession, where defense against perimeter players driving to the hoop was much more violent, where fewer assists were given out per basket. He was awesome when he played; he should be recognized to be better than his numbers and accolades show.

[TdotWattz]

I'll keep it short here as most things have been mentioned already

Vote : Michael Jordan
Nominate : Shaquille O'neal

[bluestang302]

Vote: Michael Jordan

I long resisted the Jordan for GOAT arguments - being someone who grew up in the late 80s and 90s who tended to be loathe to support the most popular and successful teams. I hated the Bulls. I would have loved to have seen a few other players - particularly Barkley - break through for a ring during the Jordan-era. I don't generally believe in GOAT arguments as a whole. I tend to support the theory that there is a small group of players (The six we are deciding on here, actually) that all can lay claim to the spot. When pressed though, I do believe Jordan does have the best overall resume for the #1 GOAT slot, Six rings, a boatload of statistics, 5 MVPs. Stunning efficiency, disruptive defensive talents, and an ability to play in the low post also help nullify the "Big over Small" argument. Add to that his ability to close out a game (Game 6 in 1998 anyone?), and I can't pass up MJ for the #1 slot - be it the GOAT rankings or if I were drafting a team. With respectful nods to Wilt and Kareem especially, I take Jordan.

Nomination: Now, this is tough. I see Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, and West as all equally worthy for nom here. Shaq is the self-appointed MDE, but won 3 of his 4 rings with a guy who will likely be voted into the Top 15 or 20 and won his other one with a guy who had a GOAT-worthy Finals performance. I also have issues with his durabilty - he rarely played a full season. Hakeem had a (relatively) short peak of epic preportions. But for all his other years he was merely one of the top 2 centers in the league, rather than one of the top 2 players in the league. Not a big dropoff. I feel his game was more spectacular than TImmy's, though Timmy has double the rings. West was a stunning player - not far off from Jordan in what he could do on the court. He "only" managed to win one title (and that was with Wilt), but no one could say he didn't perform in the playoffs. In fact, he'd be on the short list of best big game players ever.

I dunno, I wish I knew exactly what we were voting on here. Just a strict comparison of accomplishments? Do we consider talent and team circumstance as well? Is it 100% career or 50/50 career/peak? If we aren't going to include peak, then it's different from the last one where Bill Walton, Wade and LeBron, and guys like Hill and Penny and David Thompson all placed.

Overall, I think Hakeem was as good as Shaq was overall during his 4 year peak. Career-wise, he was more durable and spent as many years as a Top center as anyone (except for Kareem of course).

Nom - Hakeem.

[abcdef]

I think this is a contest between Wilt and Jordan, with Kareem and Russell looking in on the outside.

To me the "greatest player" is a combination of two factors, how individually dominant that player was and how well he helped his team win.

Wilt is the MDE without doubt. As Oscar said when asked whether Wilt is the GOAT, he said "the books don't lie." His stats are ridiculous and his tales rival Chuck Norris's. Jordan was dominant himself, but not as dominant as Wilt. Wilt was not only a dominant scorer, but a great distributor as well. He was the only center ever to lead the league in assists, and finished in the top 10 4 times, Jordan only did this once. Raw numbers are hard to compare because in the 1960's assists were only counted if the recipient of the pass took the shot immediately without a dribble. Wilt was also a dominant defender, Russell once said that Wilt could do his job better than he ever did it, and he showed this late in his career when that was the role Bill Sharman asked of him. Jordan was also a great defender, but he tailed off after his first retirement. Wilt had ungodly stamina, he averaged over 48 minutes a game one season and averaged 45.8 for his career, easily best all time.

Now there are two typical objections to Wilt being the GOAT. The first one is the "short white guys" argument; the argument is that Wilt dominated 6'8" white scrubs and thus his numbers are inflated. However, there were a sizeable number of HOF bigs that Wilt contended against, Petit, Russell, Heinsohn, Bellamy, Thurmond, Jerry Lucas, Reed, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. In addition, there were 10 teams in the league, so he played against these guys a sizable chunk of his schedule. For comparison, let's take Shaquille O'Neal, who contended against Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing/Duncan and then had nothing in the terms of HOF worthy competition until (maybe) Yao Ming and Dwight Howard, and somehow people claim Shaq has had greater competition than Wilt, and Shaq played Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing maybe only twice a season. I feel that this argument is not really a valid one.

The other objection is more serious, that Wilt was not a winner, did not step up in the playoffs, or worse was a malingerer and choker (Russell certainly thought so). Yes the 1969 and 1970 Finals are black marks on Wilt's legacy, and it is true that he didn't step up his game in the playoffs like the way Jordan did. But there are some mitigating factors; he did win the 1967 and 72 finals, winning finals MVP in 72, dominating Cap along the way, and he certainly would have won finals MVP in 1967. While Russell did consistently beat him, it is worth mentioning that Wilt's team was the ONLY team to beat Russell's Celts in the 1960's. In addition, Jordan suffered through a number of losing seasons at the start of his career, and it was not until Pippen and Phil Jackson came along that Jordan started winning, so Jordan was not a mystical winner on the level of Russell.

Therefore, I believe that Wilt's shortcomings in the winning department don't outweigh his ridiculous dominance of the game. My vote is for Wilt Chamberlain.

I nominate Jerry West for the next spot.

[tkb]

Vote: Kareem. The big three is a subjective choice, IMO. Fifteen years from now, it will be a pick 'em between Jordan and Kareem and Wilt. We're still in the last throes of the Jordan era now. I can;'t help but pick Kareem. When he was on miserable teams (the 1975 Bucks and 1976 Lakers, with average Cs, would have been 20 win teams), he made them adequate. Any team even slightly better than awful was a playoff team. The late 1960s to the early 1980s was the Golden Age of the C; there has never been a concentration of strength at the position to match it. Wilt, Unseld, Thurmond, Bellamy, Cowens, Lanier, McAdoo, Walton, Malone, Sikma, Parish and Parish all had at least 3 top level seasons; most had a lot more. Kareem won 6 MVPs in that period, and was a great player for 5-6 years more after that. He won as many titles as anybody, was as dominant as anybody, and did it for the longest period.

I agree with this. There can be made great cases for the elite 3 (Jabbar, Chamberlain, Jordan) for the nr 1 spot, and I also think all 3 are worthy of a vote for the nr 1 spot. Having said that, my personal preference is Kareem because of the reasons you already stated. There wasn't really a flaw in his game. Good at just about everything he did.

[mudyez]

Vote: Michael Jordan...he was just a glitch in the matrix...only centers and PF's could ever match his influence and he also did it, when the league was at its best.

Nominate: Tim Duncan...tough one between Hakeem, Shaq and him but he has twic as much rings as Hakeem and Shaq had better sidekcks to get his...furthermore I'm a spurs nerd which probaby gave him a small edge too.