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A friend and I were having a discussion regarding the Top Perimeter Defenders of All-Time.

I maintained that Pippen was the best perimeter defender of all time, better than even Jordan.
Pippen has been the best help defender I have seen in my lifetime (born in 1981), and I have never seen anyone seal off half of the court quite like Pippen has. Pippen was playing zone defense before zones were even allowed. Pip could guard each of PG, SG, and SF on the ball quite well. In fact, the adjustment for him to guard and smother Mark Jackson at the Indiana Pacers point of attack was a key component for the Bulls in pulling off a 7 game series win over the Pacers in the 1996 ECF.

Pippen might have been misused later on in his career at Houston because Rudy didn't quite know how to utilize him to his full potential, but when Pippen with the Blazers, you would often see him play "roaming" role with great skill.

I suppose my question is multi-part...

A) What criteria do you believe determines the best perimeter defender of all-time? What attributes do they have to have elite skills in?

B) Can perimeter defending be quantified somehow?

C) Based on your criteria or consensus criteria, who do you believe to be in your top 3 (or top tier or whatever) of perimeter defenders?

(A)Chris Paul, (B)Hondo, and (C)Brevin Knight.

Pippen, Jordan, Payton...

Maybe Frazier, Sloan, Cooper, Dumars, West...

There are a few that could probably replace Payton.

Payton was a bit overrated IMO

Duiz wrote:(A)Chris Paul, (B)Hondo, and (C)Brevin Knight.

Chris Paul? Really?

Can't believe no one mentioned Moncrief in this thread yet.

Moncrief. Only guard to ever win DPOY twice.

andykeikei wrote:

Duiz wrote:(A)Chris Paul, (B)Hondo, and (C)Brevin Knight.

Chris Paul? Really?

Can't believe no one mentioned Moncrief in this thread yet.

He's been on a Chris Paul kick lately. Mentions him every chance he gets.

Copperhead wrote:

andykeikei wrote:

Duiz wrote:(A)Chris Paul, (B)Hondo, and (C)Brevin Knight.

Chris Paul? Really?

Can't believe no one mentioned Moncrief in this thread yet.

He's been on a Chris Paul kick lately. Mentions him every chance he gets lately.

Hey... he is a Hall of Famer, who is already better than what Stockton, Frazier, or Thomas were.

How do you grade perimeter defense... well that is difficult. I think you have to count too the person who comes up to help you when you get screened during a pick and roll. You get many times in which the big man doesn't hold the opponents perimeter player long enough for the perimeter defender to adapt, and this opens for shots, penetration, and kick outs for assists. It doesn't matter how good you are, if your teammate is not smart enough to hold the guy you are guarding, he is gonna get certain advantage that will make him unguardable for a certain period of time. I think that many of the great perimeter defenders in the NBA had some good help by their front court. I don't believe this is possible to grade.

Pippin and Dumars jump out

Rodman is not the greatest, but i do think he should be on the list. as a piston he did have to guard some perimeter guys.

you also have to find a place for Bowen, the Spurs stick him on guys like Kobe, Dirk, and Nash, and does a pretty good job on all of them.

There's Dennis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, Scottie Pippen, Alvin Robertson, Joe Dumars...

And then, there's everyone else.

I don't know if there is an objective measure of perimeter defense. I personally prefer those who loves to smother the opponents; thus I like Hondo, Moncrief and Payton more. They can be really annoying to the other team sometimes. Then there are those who has superb quickness and length like Jordan, Pippen and West; they could roam around the court and get some steals, blocks...simply all over the floor. They could cause chaos to the other team's offense too.

T.R. Dunn, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan and Mookie Blaylock weren't too bad either.

fivas14 wrote:Moncrief. Only guard to ever win DPOY twice.

Moncrief was the first player that came to my mind. Clyde Frazier, Alvin Robertson,
Dennis Johnson and to a lessor degree Gary Payton also come to mind.

Michael Cooper
Bobby Jones
Walt Frazier
Mike Newlin
Don Chaney
Fred Carter
Jerry Sloan

There are just a few I remember...offhand.

James Worthy
Jerome Kersey/Clifford Robinson
Phil Chenier
Doug Collins
Hal Greer
Dennis Rodman
Sidney Moncrief/Paul Pressey/Junior Bridgeman/Alvin Robertson/Jay Humphries
Dennis Johnson
Joe Dumars

Personal Favorites

Walter Davis
Tom McMillen
Jamaal Wilkes
Bill Bradley/Dave DeBusschere/Jerry Lucas/Phil Jackson/
Bob Gross/Lionel Hollins
Mo Cheeks
Scottie Pippen/Michael Jordan/Jud Buechler (No, I am serious!)

I like my tandems as well as much as those who I deem to the best individually. Some cannot be the best without help from others like good on the ball defenders and low post defenders so I had to include them as well.

You asked for perimeter defenders. I think some of these are good on the ball defenders, off the ball defenders and low post defenders as well...

If you pinned me down and ask me to name just one all time who can guard the perimeter without fouling...and always be in position to contest shots I would say...

Bobby Jones I would have to take or Michael Cooper. But I go with Bobby Jones as best all time. Jones, Cooper, Moncrief, Collins, Pippen.

Bowen has to be on the list somewhere. Absolutely can't stand him, and that's the whole point. Nobody in the league guards Kobe Bryant better.

Otherwise, the single best I've seen in 20 years as a fan was Pippen. He could totally change games just with his on-ball pressure. Better than Jordan.

I'm not as sold on Bowen as others, he has terrific help around him, and he's incredibly adept at completely limiting your open jump shots, and forcing you to drive into the middle of the paint and try to score over Tim Duncan.

A lot of these guys mentioned didn't have that luxury and were forced to stifle a player as a shooter and driving to the basket. Just my two cents there.

Anyway, some of the guys that seemed to stifle players the best to me:

Mike
John Havlicek
Jerry West
Clyde Frazier
Sidney Moncrief
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen

These are guys that could get all up in your grill and take you off your jumper and out of your shooting spots, but had the quickness to stay on you without allowing you to dribble drive past AND also were guys that could guard you in the post, and were terrific help defenders that caused havoc and turnovers.

That's a good point, but having a great shotblocker/help defender like Duncan behind you is still only half the battle. I mean, your description of Bowen's defense is pretty much textbook stuff -- stay in front of your man, contest jumpers, funnel towards help. That's exactly what every coach from junior high on up teaches -- and it's a lot easier said than done. Plus, as a previous poster mentioned, you have to give extra credit for the versatility. How many players in league history could guard guys as varied as Kobe and Nowitzki and still have success?

All good points, he might be THE best at what he does, but I'd be curious to see him on an island and not having a dominant defender to funnel guys to.

But he might be the best at disrupting a guys shooting, with his body into them, his feet under them(dirty or not), he can just totally get you off your rhythm there.

No doubt he would lose some of his effectiveness. But it's not his fault he plays with Duncan, so you still have to give him credit for doing his job (which I know you're doing, by the way). The Spurs specifically went out and got Bowen after Bryant torched them in the 2001 WCF, and he's been even better than they could have hoped. Trust me, I loathe all the chickenisht crap he pulls -- but at some point, I have to give him respect for the great job he does.

NO-KG-AI wrote:I
Mike
John Havlicek
Jerry West
Clyde Frazier
Sidney Moncrief
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen

Those were the first few guys i thought of as well.

Artest I think deserves some mention as well.

As far as bigs who can switch onto the perimeter and guard people Rodman deserves consideration.