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penbeast0 wrote:I think it would be easier to build an offense that Thurmond wouldn't be taking a lot of shots (he was one of the worst offensive superstars I have ever seen both in terms of shooting and his playmaking was pretty punk too) than it would be to build a defense to hide prime Jerry Lucas so I go with Thurmond as well.

Samurai wrote:I asked him once how he never seemed to get his shot blocked; if anyone is interested in his answer, just let me know.

He was a great rebounder. He spoke a lot about his rebounding success given that he wasn't a great jumper. Again I don't want to ramble, so if anyone is interested in what he said, let me know.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble here...

ronnymac2 wrote:

Samurai wrote:I asked him once how he never seemed to get his shot blocked; if anyone is interested in his answer, just let me know.

He was a great rebounder. He spoke a lot about his rebounding success given that he wasn't a great jumper. Again I don't want to ramble, so if anyone is interested in what he said, let me know.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble here...

Go into your closet, getcha ramblin' hat on, pour yourself a glass of water/beer/pinot noir/whatever your fancy, sit down, and go on as many tangents as you like. You're like 8 posts in and you're already one of my favorites.

Samurai wrote:

ronnymac2 wrote:

Samurai wrote:I asked him once how he never seemed to get his shot blocked; if anyone is interested in his answer, just let me know.

He was a great rebounder. He spoke a lot about his rebounding success given that he wasn't a great jumper. Again I don't want to ramble, so if anyone is interested in what he said, let me know.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble here...

Go into your closet, getcha ramblin' hat on, pour yourself a glass of water/beer/pinot noir/whatever your fancy, sit down, and go on as many tangents as you like. You're like 8 posts in and you're already one of my favorites.

OK thanks. I realize I am probably a few years older than the typical poster so I'm not sure if my input is relevant to others. I typically only post when people are discussing players from around 69 on since I did see most of the stars back then.

in terms of shooting: I asked Lucas about his jump shot since his form was different from others. As i said, it resembled a shot put type of motion coming from his right shoulder. Somewhat similar to Matt Bonner today, except that Bonner is pretty much just a spot up shooter whereas Luke could launch his shot put moving either right (his preference) or left or on a turnaround. I watched him make a turnaround jumper over Wilt and it was hard for me to understand how he got such a shot off without having it blocked so I asked him about that as well.

Lucas said the important point about shooting accuracy is to have your arm form a straight line to the basket. He felt that any time you brought your arm across your body, whether to hold the ball in front of your face, forehead, or overhead, your shooting arm is no longer vertically straight to the basket, which can cause your shot to veer left or right. He had me stand up and bring my right arm straight up (bending at the elbow). Of course my right hand was now at my right shoulder. He said that was now a straight line to the basket. He said that he may miss a shot because he shot it too far or too short, but he said he almost never missed a shot because it wasn't straight.

As for why it was rarely blocked even though it seemed to be launched from his shoulder - he said first, it someone is close enough that they could actually block it, then you shouldn't be shooting. Someone else is bound to be more open than you. Second, even though the ball starts at his shoulder, he doesn't actually release the ball until his hand is around the right side of the top of his head so he didn't feel the height of his release point was much lower than others. Third, he always shot with a high arc making it harder to block. Finally, he said he usually played center until he turned pro even though he was only 6-8, so growing up he usually went against someone taller than him. As a result, he started "jumping backward" as a kid whenever he used his jump shot to get it over his taller opponent, to the point that this was now his natural jumping motion. Thus his typical jump shot actually turned into a natural fadeaway, even on his long range bombs. He did smile and say that he did consciously jump backward "a little farther than normal" when he was guarded by Wilt or Russell!

On rebounding: he had excellent boxing out technique; it was very rare for anyone to get past him when he boxed them out unless they tried to go over his back. If the person who was boxed out tried to just outjump him, he would just slide his hips back a bit to cause the jumper to lose balance. if they fell on top of Lucas, the other guy going over his back would frequently be called for a foul. But he felt his biggest reason for his rebounding success was that he was a great position rebounder and he credited his famous memory skills for it. He said that after watching "thousands of shots" growing up, he had memorized where the likely rebound spots would be based on where the shot was taken from and the arc of the ball. So while most players would just take up a random position under the basket, once he saw the ball leave the shooter's hand he pretty much "knew" where the likely rebound would be and would ignore where the others were and just went to that spot. If the shot didn't go in, Lucas was often the guy in the perfect position for the rebound. He said if you have good technique and are in the right position, you don't have to be able to jump out of the gym to grab a rebound.

By the way, offensive rebounds weren't tracked until his last year. With no offensive rebound stats, some may wonder how he would compare to someone like Dennis Rodman as a rebounder. My observation was the Lucas was a very good, but not great, offensive rebounder. He certainly grabbed his share, and was extremely good at putting it back in the basket, but there was just no comparison between Lucas and someone like Moses Malone or Rodman on the offensive glass. But I think he was their equal as a defensive rebounder. I read an article somewhere where he said that he felt he had to grab every defensive rebound, like it was an obsession to him. When I saw him play, he would tend to lose track of his man so that he could see when someone was shooting - it seemed that getting in perfect rebound position was just a much higher priority to him than staying with his guy. So on one hand, that approach made him a defensive rebounding machine. On the other hand, his man would often sneak open for a shot, thus giving Lucas the reputation of being a poor defender.

In regards to his reputation as a stat padder, I'm sure that his obsession with getting every rebound, even if it mean leaving his man unguarded, was a factor in that reputation. There was a story that before he was traded to SF, as a member of the Royals he once ran past the scorer's table when he was supposed to get back on D to let the scorer know he missed a rebound that Lucas should have gotten credit for! I never saw him do that, but it was pretty well known that he always had the up-to-date box score memorized and he was maybe a bit OCD if there were any inaccuracies, especially regarding his own stats! If that happened, it probably didn't enhance his defensive reputation if you are yelling at the scorer instead of guarding your man and likely gave more credence to his reputation as a stat-padder.

Lucas was very underrated as a passer. He was an extremely talented passer. He stressed that just "getting the ball to your teammate" does not mean it was a good pass. It has to be delivered at just the right time and in just the right position so that your teammate could score in order to be considered a good pass. He said that he had memorized the various "sweet spots" for all his teammates based on where they were on the court and their shooting motion. He had us run a drill where the person designated to shoot on a particular play would run to the designated spot and then hold our hands in our "sweet spot". If the pass was a little off target, we were not supposed to move our hands to catch it. Instead the ball would sail past us so the passer could see he missed the "sweet spot". If we caught it in the right spot but the defender had a chance to get up in our face, we were to drop the ball so the passer could see that it wasn't delivered at the right time. If you ever tried a drill like that, you would know just how hard it is to pass with perfect accuracy and timing. None of us could get the hang of it; it seemed impossible and we were getting pretty dejected and frustrated. So Lucas took the ball and had Jeff Mullins (a very good shooter in his own right) play the shooter, with his assistants (local college players) as the defenders and told us to watch. It was incredible; no matter where Mullins put his hands, Lucas put the ball EXACTLY there and in one motion Mullins went up and made the shot before the defender could stop it. And Mullins would change his hand position each time! Over and over and over, it was just beautiful to watch! That was almost as impressive as watching Lucas warm up by tossing in those shot put jumpers from 25 feet and hitting nothing but net.

Anyway, enough rambling from a summer camp that took place 44 years ago. But it provided me with memories to last a lifetime. I'm not so nostalgic that I am claiming Lucas was the GOAT PF. He wasn't perfect. But I sure wish he could play today with a 3-point line!

penbeast0 wrote:You also might find that, like Chris Bosh this year, Reed and possibly Frazier/Barnett/Monroe would see that shot paying off and work it into their repetoire. There are a lot of guys shooting threes in the league that didn't have that shot consistently in college . . . including Kwahi Leonard whose shooting range was a big question on his draft report.

penbeast0 wrote:You also might find that, like Chris Bosh this year, Reed and possibly Frazier/Barnett/Monroe would see that shot paying off and work it into their repetoire. There are a lot of guys shooting threes in the league that didn't have that shot consistently in college . . . including Kwahi Leonard whose shooting range was a big question on his draft report.

Samurai wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:You also might find that, like Chris Bosh this year, Reed and possibly Frazier/Barnett/Monroe would see that shot paying off and work it into their repetoire. There are a lot of guys shooting threes in the league that didn't have that shot consistently in college . . . including Kwahi Leonard whose shooting range was a big question on his draft report.

It certainly is possible, but I do have my doubts. Bradley should be fine on three's; he regularly hit deep corner shots and whether he was 21 feet or 21 and a half feet away, he should be just as good if he had the chance to practice from 22 feet away in the corners. DeBusschere often shot from beyond 23-9, but he wasn't particularly accurate from there. My concern is he may be willing to chuck them up a lot but not shoot a good percentage (similar to a Jared Sullivan). Reed was a pretty good shot from 15-17 feet, but noticeably less accurate if he went out to beyond 20 feet. I'm not sure if moving another 3+ feet farther out would improve his shooting. As a lefty, Reed's stroke looks visually similar to David Lee; Lee can hit the midrange jumper if you leave him open (better last year than this season), but he's just not a threat from beyond the arc.

Monroe was frequently left open if he was 20 feet away. And for good reason - he just wasn't much of a threat from there. He only attempted those shots if wide open, he just didn't seem to hit a high percentage of them. Frazier was deadly accurate up to 20 feet. My concern (prejudice) was his form - he shot the ball holding the ball over his head with his elbows spread out to the sides. Off the top of my head, the only ones I can recall who shot the ball in a similar manner were Nate Thurmond and Julius Erving, neither of whom were particularly accurate from long range. Frazier was much better than both in the midrange area, but I just have my doubts if he would be a threat from beyond the arc with that shooting style.

So in terms of confidence, I am highly confident that Lucas would be among the leaders in three's in today's game; his accuracy from well beyond the arc was just absolutely uncanny. Bradley would be a concern to defenses, particularly in the corners. DeBusschere would hit a few, but I fear he would be shooting at less than 30% from there. I don't see Reed or Monroe being a big threat from beyond the arc. Frazier is the wild card to me; my concerns are based solely on his shooting style. But he was so good up to 20 feet, that if he had the reason to practice from that distance, his shooting skill was tremendous and he could develop that type of range.

Third, he always shot with a high arc making it harder to block.

Samurai wrote:[
Frazier had a unique jump shot. Not textbook, but he was one of the few guards I've seen from any era who had sort of an up and under jumper. He would frequently fake his man into the air, jump off one foot, and shoot what could be called a leaner. Which he made at a very high pct. It also left him in excellent off. rebounding position.