"... was the most dominant big the league has ever seen."

[magicfan4life05]

Aubrey (Houston, Tx): Hey Mr. Thorpe. Who would you rather have in their prime, The Dream, or Shaq Diesel? And why, if you don't mind. Thank you.

SportsNation David Thorpe: (12:15 PM ET ) I am a huge dream fan. But the Diesel was the most dominant big the league has ever seen. Period.

yay or nay?

[magicfan4life05]

Jonathan (Raleigh, NC): Shaq most dominant ever? Over Wilt? Over Kareem? Again, over wilt who averaged 24 pts and 24 boards in '67? Really?

SportsNation David Thorpe: (12:17 PM ET ) Really.

???

[magicfan4life05]

Jason (Boston): More dominant than Wilt? Or are you trying to avoid the generational gap?

SportsNation David Thorpe: (12:24 PM ET ) Apples and oranges. Wilt never faced the size that Shaq had too.

[TrueLAfan]

So…what? SportsNation David Thorpe is stupid? Misinformed? Ignorant? What are we supposed to say here?

[Devilzsidewalk]

David Thorpe has common sense

[magicfan4life05]

So…what? SportsNation David Thorpe is stupid? Misinformed? Ignorant? What are we supposed to say here?

I wanted to know who agreed with him.

I said

yay or nay?

So you were supposed to say yay or nay.

[abcdef]

This simply further validates my contention that the media encourages and heavily feeds the notion that players from the 60's played against "short white guys" and thus are inferior. Very, very irresponsible journalism and it obviously warps the perception of the history of the game.

Shaq calls himself the MDE, Wilt was the real MDE. If Wilt and Shaq were in the league at the same time Shaq wouldn't be half the presence that he has been, because he'd be completely overshadowed by Wilt. The ONLY thing Shaq has on Wilt is bulk. Wilt is just as tall, strong, quicker, faster, higher endurance, and more skilled.

Besides, Shaq's prime when he really made his mark was when the second best center in the NBA was either Ben Wallace or Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Before the late 90's early 2000's, he was considered inferior to Olajuwon and Robinson and only slightly better than Ewing. Dominating Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rik Smits, Dale Davis, etc. doesn't make him the most dominant big man ever.

[ronnymac2]

This simply further validates my contention that the media encourages and heavily feeds the notion that players from the 60's played against "short white guys" and thus are inferior. Very, very irresponsible journalism and it obviously warps the perception of the history of the game.

Shaq calls himself the MDE, Wilt was the real MDE. If Wilt and Shaq were in the league at the same time Shaq wouldn't be half the presence that he has been, because he'd be completely overshadowed by Wilt. The ONLY thing Shaq has on Wilt is bulk. Wilt is just as tall, strong, quicker, faster, higher endurance, and more skilled.

Besides, Shaq's prime when he really made his mark was when the second best center in the NBA was either Ben Wallace or Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Before the late 90's early 2000's, he was considered inferior to Olajuwon and Robinson and only slightly better than Ewing. Dominating Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Rik Smits, Dale Davis, etc. doesn't make him the most dominant big man ever.

uuggghhh.....i hate when one player gets overrated, so then people overrate another player in comparison, or else underrate the first player......

This isn't your fault abcdef...it's more of a general statement.

You put Shaq and Wilt in their primes in the same league together, they both dominate. When they face each other...sometimes wilt will win, sometimes shaq will win (both the individual matchup, and the game, though the game is VERY dependant on the teams they have of course). They are both absolute freaks athletically, and both are very skilled (people have wilt's skills right, yet they underrate shaq's....). They were both winners, and they played great in big game situations. Shaq is the newer version of the dominant big man, no better or worse.

And for the record, when being asked seriously where his place among the greatest centers ever is, shaq has stated that wilt is number 1 and russell number 2. He said that they were earlier versions of him, and without them, there would be no him. His dad would teach him to be powerful like wilt, block shots like russell, and throw in hooks like kareem (not that he copied them exactly, but their influences are evident). He also, btw, has kareem 3rd all-time. He has always given respect to dream as well, of course. He also has always had good words for ewing, zo, and duncan (him and robinson didn't like each other though...so he never credited admiral where admiral's credit was due), too.

Who's the greatest big man ever? I got duncan, shaq, kareem, russell, dream, wilt, and Mehmet Okur as the main contenders.... How would i rank them?

All-time, considering EVERYTHING THAT YOU CAN CONSIDER, i see it as:

1. Wilt
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Hakeem
6. Duncan

Though I switch russell a lot lol.

Who would I take first for a team in their primes.....

shaq and wilt...interchangeable
hakeem and kareem....interchangeable, slight edge to hakeem, both extremely close to shaq and wilt
Duncan...very close to hakeem and kareem
Russell...VERY close to Duncan

Who dominated their era more?? Wilt led 2 of the greatest teams ever...i mean EVER. And of course his stats were great and all. But i mean...russell won 11 titles. He's the greatest winner in the history of american professional sports. Then hakeem took down the greatest centers of his era (shaq was young, remember...though still great). Duncan has led a modern day dynasty for 10 years...kind of russell-esque. Shaq was literally unstoppable....every team in the league tried getting systems, players, etc. to match up with him. He's the only one besides Russell to lead his team to a three-peat, and during that time was so clearly better than anybody else playing (regardless of position)...it wasn't even close. Then overall, you got kareem, who imo has the greatest all-around career in nba history. He dominated the longest. Amazing.

I honestly don't know who dominated their era more. They all have great arguments over each other. Nobody was clear cut better....wilt comes the closest, but his contemporary won 11 titles....so i mean....i'm not one that counts titles as being AMAZINGLY great, but one cannot ignore 11 championships.

Shoutout to George Mikan in terms of dominating his era, too. I mean when you look at it, he dominated his era like nobody has since.

And just as a side note....I hope Bynum, Oden, And Dwight all become great centers that come to dominate their era. I personally believe that if all goes right...they will.

[TMACFORMVP]

Yeah, it's a joke when people say Wilt played against crap competition...

Some that come to mind..
Russell, Bellamy, Pettit, Heinson, Reed, Thurmond, Kareem, Unseld, Hayes, Lucas, Cowens, Lanier and many more that get underlooked as well (ex. Elmore Smith).

[Wizenheimer]

I certainly agree that Wilt had plenty of competition when he played. I think it could be easily argued that Wilt had tougher overall competion then Shaq has. The league was smaller then, the talent wasn't as diluted, and Wilt had good competition a lot more regularly then Shaq.

Besides (and yes the pace was higher) it's really hard to argue against a player who averaged 50 points and 26 rebounds a game one season. He had 2 seasons when he averaged 27 rebounds a game. In one season, Wilt averaged 24 points, 24 rebounds, and 8.6 assists. His career numbers were 30 points, 23 rebounds, and 4.4 assists. And if they would have kept blocked shot stats back then, Wilt would have averaged at least twice the number that Shaq has.

And Wilt did all this when the officials wouldn't have allowed Wilt to barrel into defenders like Shaq has throughout his career.

Thorpe is simply wrong.

[Fitz303]

I certainly agree that Wilt had plenty of competition when he played. I think it could be easily argued that Wilt had tougher overall competion then Shaq has. The league was smaller then, the talent wasn't as diluted, and Wilt had good competition a lot more regularly then Shaq.

Besides (and yes the pace was higher) it's really hard to argue against a player who averaged 50 points and 26 rebounds a game one season. He had 2 seasons when he averaged 27 rebounds a game. In one season, Wilt averaged 24 points, 24 rebounds, and 8.6 assists. His career numbers were 30 points, 23 rebounds, and 4.4 assists. And if they would have kept blocked shot stats back then, Wilt would have averaged at least twice the number that Shaq has.

And Wilt did all this when the officials wouldn't have allowed Wilt to barrel into defenders like Shaq has throughout his career.

Thorpe is simply wrong.

QFT..

took the words right out of my mouth, and then made it sound better than I would have as well. Shaq is one of the most dominant ever, but Wilt is THE most dominant ever, IMO

[tsherkin]

FWIW, Shaq has always been diligent in recognizing the greatness of Kareem, Wilt and especially Bill Russell, so let's not play Shaq's "MDE" card here, it doesn't really mesh.

I think offensively, Shaq and Wilt stack up pretty well. Wilt did a lot of athletic scoring in a high-paced 60s era where there honestly wasn't anything like him. He was incredibly skilled and extremely talented, but the numbers tend to mislead people. His Philly and LA numbers are more indicative of his true dominance, his ability to adapt and to dominate at advanced sports age in different roles. Wilt was amazing, and as others have said, he and Shaq would match up well (especially Wilt from the mid/late 60s onward).

Thorpe kind of ignores a couple of things though; he ignores Bill Russell, Walt Bellamy, Kareem and Bob Lanier. He ignores that weights were down back in that era because teams emphasized running, and that there were numerous centers who could have easily bulked up to present different looks to Wilt.

He ignores that Shaq has generally faced guys on whom he has a 3" height advantage and that he doesn't and rarely did face talented 7-footers on a regular basis. Even Hakeem was 6'10. Ewing and Robinson were clearly 7' plus and then guys like Yao and Ilgauksas, but it's not like Wilt didn't face some tall guys either.

I don't think there IS a clear answer for who's the MDE. I'd say that Shaq is definitely the most efficient volume scorer of the best centers in league history (I'd give Gilmore a nod but he was never a volume scorer in the NBA). I'd say that Wilt was the most prolific passer of the bunch and Kareem the most recognized (though unlike Shaq and Wilt, there really wasn't a portion of his dominant stretch where he had really significant competition at the 5 besides 2 or 3 years from Bill Walton, and none of them length seasons of that competition), so it's a tough call.

People seem to forget that when Kareem was winning 6 MVPs in 11 years, he didn't really face anyone who could really challenge him. He was the single most dominant player of the 70s by a large margin and that speaks of his own talent and achievements, but he was past the period of prime Wilt/Russell/prime Oscar/prime West. He wasn't really facing Moses for most of the 70s, either, and he was declining by the 80s. So he has much the same situation as Shaq, only Shaq had Jordan for a chunk of his career, and he had Dream and D-Rob, Karl Malone, two MVPs from Nash, two from Duncan... Kareem had... Dave Cowens, John Havlicek and some scattered moments from Dr. J, Wes Unseld, Willis Reed, etc.

Anyway, all of these centers (Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell) are the elite of the elite, among the 10 best players in NBA history, so it's a tough call. Personally, I'd honestly be more inclined to take Wilt than Shaq because he was way more durable and way more committed to defense and rebounding, but I think that offensively (ITO scoring), it's either a wash or maybe slightly in Shaq's favor. It's tough to say because Wilt was significantly above his peers in terms of efficiency and that might've translated in the modern era (especially with a coach telling him to take his 15-foot jumper and stash it in favor of power dunks and drop-step hooks).

[Warspite]

I love America


Everyone has the right to be wrong and I support David Thorpes right to be wrong. There are some peoples opinion I respect but dont always agree with and they include

Marv Albert: Has anyone seen more NBA games in person?
Brent Mussberger
Dr. Jack
Peter Vescey
Norm Van Lier
David Aldridge
Hubie Brown

All of these guys have both agreed and disagreed with Mr Thorpes opinion over the yrs. I personaly only prefer Wilt because he was more skilled and relied less on his girth and more on his talent.

[shawngoat23]

FWIW, Shaq has always been diligent in recognizing the greatness of Kareem, Wilt and especially Bill Russell, so let's not play Shaq's "MDE" card here, it doesn't really mesh.

Shaq is tremendously respectful of Russell and Wilt. His relationship with Kareem is more complicated, which is not surprising considering that Kareem is quite a reserved individual, even more so than Wilt and Russell (who has seemed to open up since his playing days).

On one hand, Shaq does recognize that Kareem is one of the greatest centers to ever play the game. In replying to Bill Walton about the "Big Man Ordinance 2257", he had this to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcHQexCFJWM

You know I've spoken to Bill Russell. I've had conversation with Wilt Chamberlain, rest in peace, haven't spoken with Kareem.

From the context, it seems that he holds Kareem as one of the premier centers in the history of the game. However, at the same time, his relationship is quite strained--he's never spoken with a Laker great? Shaq is the type to hold a grudge over such things, and I believe this feeling carries over to his estimation of Kareem's actual ability.

Several months later when he dissed Kobe at the NYC night club, he dropped the following line about Kareem:

Forreal dawg now that's B-I-G, there ain't nobody in the world do it bigger than me
That's like a white boy trying to be more n**** than me
That's like a homeless cat having more figures than me
That's like Patrick Ewing having more rings than me
That's like rappers having... cars (inaudible) things than me
That's like you saying to yourself you better than me
That's like Kareem saying to himself he better than me

I personally believe that while their relationship is strained, he knows that Kareem is one of the greatest centers ever. However, from the context of the freestyle, I don't think he believes Kareem is better than him, nor does he consider the point even disputable. To him, it's as ludicrous as a homeless person having more money than him. That's not diligence in recognizing Kareem's greatness.

On a related note, he has been very outspoken about his feelings of previous great big men. He ranges from effusive praise to outright contempt.

- He respects Mikan as the first great big man: "Without No. 99, there is no me." (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... id=2074799)
- He obviously doesn't think much of Walton, from his tirade above.
- He acknowledges Hakeem as at least an equal, conceding defeat in his individual matchup in the 1995 Finals.
- He threw a line at Patrick Ewing in his freestyle--that's the only time I recall him expressing his opinion about Ewing.
- He holds a grudge for David Robinson for rejecting his autograph request when Shaq was a high schooler (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9679C8B63). I believe that he was a big Robinson fan before that because he grew up in San Antonio though.
- He also holds high esteem for Darryl Dawkins, who isn't nearly in the same class as the aforementioned players. I recall he called Dawkins "the father of the power dunk", with himself as "his best disciple".

I really love it when Shaq pays homage to his predecessors, and I do believe that when he respects someone, he praises him more than anyone. However, I also have a problem with him--he disrespects his predecessors and contemporaries more frequently than anyone else. I cannot imagine Jordan, Kobe, or LeBron badmouthing the likes of Baylor, Erving, Thompson, Gervin, or Wilkins.

[ronnymac2]

^^^^^^Not totally true. Shaq clearly said that he ranks Kareem number 3 all-time among big men in the book "The Perfect Team." (It's a very coool book btw lol)

He does seem to not like kareem as much as the others. He seems to be close to russell, and russell always says the nicest things about shaq, too. I remember when shaq dropped 61 on the clippers, he kept looking at kareem, who was working with the clippers big men back then like he does with the laker bigs today, thinking to himself "Is this what kareem is teaching these guys to do?" Almost like sending him a message. He doesn't like kareem, but he knows kareem's place in history and kareem's value to shaq's own career.

I do think if kareem and shaq played each other...kareem would be in a little bit of trouble. It'd be a great matchup of course, but he'd get overpowered a lot.



ahhh big man ordinance 2257........

[tsherkin]

Shaq is tremendously respectful of Russell and Wilt. His relationship with Kareem is more complicated, which is not surprising considering that Kareem is quite a reserved individual, even more so than Wilt and Russell (who has seemed to open up since his playing days).

Yeah but there's an ESPN interview that's actually on their page right now, he talks about Kareem being better than him and one of the best of all-time. And again, not talking to Kareem really isn't the same as not respecting him. Then using a rap line to support your point is ridiculous, because that's just Shaq clowning around, it's no different than the "Kobe Controversy" that he clears up in the same interview. He's just messin', it's freestyle, that's how it works.

- He obviously doesn't think much of Walton, from his tirade above.

Walton is overrated some and he had some extremely negative, and some quite ridiculous, things to say about Shaq; are you surprised?

- He holds a grudge for David Robinson for rejecting his autograph request when Shaq was a high schooler (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9679C8B63). I believe that he was a big Robinson fan before that because he grew up in San Antonio though.

Shaq has always used little things to motivate him; he went hard at Ewing because Pat didn't shake his hand when he was a kid, he just gave him two fistfuls of props. It doesn't mean anything, it's like Jordan looking for anything anyone ever said to tick him off and get him frenzied.

I think you don't necessarily understand the difference between what he says in a rap and what he really thinks of these players; you're using rap lines as if they're the heart and soul laid out on paper instead of rhyming junk that's funny. He's a clown, he says things to get a rise out of people all the time, and is then contrite if people don't like it, it's just who he is.

In interviews, especially now that he's not at his peak, he's generally pretty humble about the all-time greats.

[vanwizard]

yay

[Myth_Breaker]

Shaq is tremendously respectful of Russell and Wilt. His relationship with Kareem is more complicated, which is not surprising considering that Kareem is quite a reserved individual, even more so than Wilt and Russell (who has seemed to open up since his playing days).

Yeah but there's an ESPN interview that's actually on their page right now, he talks about Kareem being better than him and one of the best of all-time. And again, not talking to Kareem really isn't the same as not respecting him. Then using a rap line to support your point is ridiculous, because that's just Shaq clowning around, it's no different than the "Kobe Controversy" that he clears up in the same interview. He's just messin', it's freestyle, that's how it works.

- He obviously doesn't think much of Walton, from his tirade above.

Walton is overrated some and he had some extremely negative, and some quite ridiculous, things to say about Shaq; are you surprised?

- He holds a grudge for David Robinson for rejecting his autograph request when Shaq was a high schooler (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9679C8B63). I believe that he was a big Robinson fan before that because he grew up in San Antonio though.

Shaq has always used little things to motivate him; he went hard at Ewing because Pat didn't shake his hand when he was a kid, he just gave him two fistfuls of props. It doesn't mean anything, it's like Jordan looking for anything anyone ever said to tick him off and get him frenzied.

I think you don't necessarily understand the difference between what he says in a rap and what he really thinks of these players; you're using rap lines as if they're the heart and soul laid out on paper instead of rhyming junk that's funny. He's a clown, he says things to get a rise out of people all the time, and is then contrite if people don't like it, it's just who he is.

In interviews, especially now that he's not at his peak, he's generally pretty humble about the all-time greats.

Had no idea that "clowning around in rap" completely relieves you of any responsibility for your words here (though why then Shaq apologized for his words towards Kobe recently?), but anyway: no matter how you try to put it and spin it, Shaq has the least respect towards his rivals out of ALL NBA greats and gave the corresponding evidence so many times. You may try to justify him due to being Shaq's fan, but it doesn't change the simple fact he's the biggest jerk (both figurally and literally) you may find around in this league.

[tsherkin]

Had no idea that "clowning around in rap" completely relieves you of any responsibility for your words here (though why then Shaq apologized for his words towards Kobe recently?)

It was a foolish thing to do, but it's no different than making an off-hand comment about it to a friend in jest and having it taken out of context. Shaq apologized because he knew it'd make a stink and realized it after he'd already done it because the media has nothing better to do.

Shaq has the least respect towards his rivals out of ALL NBA greats and gave the corresponding evidence so many times. You may try to justify him due to being Shaq's fan, but it doesn't change the simple fact he's the biggest jerk (both figurally and literally) you may find around in this league.

I'm inclined to disagree, that's an overly harsh characterization. I'd say yeah, he's had his chemistry issues because he's been immature and selfish at times and had ego-burn, but with regards to respecting the NBA greats, there's a difference between not having a warm relationship with Kareem (who has never been a terrifically approachable person, even after he 'warmed up') and not having nice things to say about Bill Walton, and being extremely disrespectful.

Let's not forget, for example, that Kareem wasn't terribly supportive of Shaq. Anyone remember this quote from back in '95?

"Shaquille is certainly a force to be reckoned with. And he's going to be around for a long time. But I think Hakeem is clearly a better player. He can do more things on the court," Abdul-Jabbar observed.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing here, but it's not the kind of thing that would make Shaq want to cozy up to him and be best friends, especially at that time in his career and especially in February of a season he'd eventually make the Finals while winning a scoring title. He was averaging around 30/11 at the time, on about 59% FG. Not the greatest of times to receive criticism of that type, especially from an icon of the league.

Of course, later on in his career, Kareem would also say this:

“I’ve had nothing but respect for him the whole time I’ve known him. I’m surprised he took some sort of offense. I remember he was out there one game and he made a hook shot and he pointed to me in the crowd. I think he’s the best center of his generation.”

And the quote where he "took offense" was really quite mild:

"“I’ve probably only spoken two times to Mr. Kareem and once to Mr. Chamberlain,” said O’Neal, comparing them to former centers Bill Russell and Hakeem Olajuwon, who, according to O’Neal, continue to befriend him. “Coming in there, playing under [Abdul-Jabbar preceded by Chamberlain], I wanted at least to be on the same page… . It was vital that I had to make a name for myself in that organization. Why they don’t talk to me, I don’t know. I don’t have any hard feelings for them.”

This is not exactly "*BLEEP* Kareem and Wilt," you know?

So, there's some level of evolution in their relationship.

My point is this: Shaq has showed a similar amount of respect as to what has been shown him and that means his opinions and comments haven't always been flattering to the greats yes, but it's really only due fairness (though his relationship with Penny and Kobe was plainly inexcusable).

Kobe dropped his name in a police station to try and sully his name and the two had been bickering for years. Ewing was a rival and one that Shaq generally got the better of, someone who hadn't been especially nice to him either. Kareem had constantly voiced his opinion that others were better. Walton has taken every opportunity to trash Shaq. Russell? Shaq's endlessly respectful of Bill. Wilt and Shaq weren't that close, probably because of the direct comparisons and probably because Shaq spent nearly a half-decade in Orlando, which wasn't really anywhere near Wilt's territory.

I'm a Shaq fan, so I'm obviously biased, but looking at what's actually been said on both sides, I don't see a great deal of real disrespect between Wilt (RIP) and Shaq and Kareem, just an absence of friendship, very different from Shaq/Ewing and Shaq/Kobe. He's a problematic character, or has been during his career, certainly, but I think in this case (e.g. regarding the other great bigs), I think it's overblown.

[prekazi]

I agree with David Thorpe. Prime SHAQ was the most dominant thing ever.