Comparing Walt Frazier & The Big O

[The Main Event]

I'm just curious to hear about some of the differences and similarities between these 2. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to watch these guys in person. Were they comparable whatsoever? When comparing their careers I noticed that Oscar got about 5 more mpg of PT and also took a couple more shots off per game. They shot at a nearly identical clip across their careers; although, Oscar got to the line more frequently and shot from the charity stripe at a higher percentage. He also appears to have the edge in passing.

I guess im just unsure as to whether their stats are truly indicitave of who was the better all around player or if they are merely a reflection of the systems that they played in. Pound for pound, how do you compare these two greats?

[WesWesley]

I'm just curious to hear about some of the differences and similarities between these 2. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to watch these guys in person. Were they comparable whatsoever? When comparing their careers I noticed that Oscar got about 5 more mpg of PT and also took a couple more shots off per game. They shot at a nearly identical clip across their careers; although, Oscar got to the line more frequently and shot from the charity stripe at a higher percentage. He also appears to have the edge in passing.

I guess im just unsure as to whether their stats are truly indicitave of who was the better all around player or if they are merely a reflection of the systems that they played in. Pound for pound, how do you compare these two greats?

Big O was better but it's close. Frazier was better on the defensive end, and Big O was better on offense.

Both are two of the best PGs to ever play though. Frazier led the Knicks to the title with a backcourt partner in Earl Monroe. People thought that was never going to work because Monroe was considering a pure scorer who liked to dominate the rock.

Both had good size and were very good ball handlers. I'll give the edge in playmaking to Roberston.

[Warspite]

Oscars modern day peer would be LBJ
Fraziers modern day peer would be Billups.

They realy arent that close when you compare them. One is a 30ppg scorer who also led the league in asts with a team built around him and the other is a 20ppg scorer who led a team of stars to titles.

Frazier is a better leader and defender but unless Oscar has a broken arm or leg and in some cases both hes about 60-70% the player Oscar was. Oscar would do much better than Frazier on a current lottery team but Frazier would have a better chance to take a playoff team to the Finals.

Dont sell Oscars accomplishments short as he took Russells Celtics to 7 games a few times and won a title with KAJ and an expansion team. If MJ was a better rebounder and passer he would be Oscar Robertson.

[The Main Event]

Oscars modern day peer would be LBJ
Fraziers modern day peer would be Billups.

They realy arent that close when you compare them. One is a 30ppg scorer who also led the league in asts with a team built around him and the other is a 20ppg scorer who led a team of stars to titles.

Frazier is a better leader and defender but unless Oscar has a broken arm or leg and in some cases both hes about 60-70% the player Oscar was. Oscar would do much better than Frazier on a current lottery team but Frazier would have a better chance to take a playoff team to the Finals.

Dont sell Oscars accomplishments short as he took Russells Celtics to 7 games a few times and won a title with KAJ and an expansion team. If MJ was a better rebounder and passer he would be Oscar Robertson.

Having said that, who would you rather have on your team? What is more valuable to you, leadership and defense or the ability to put up gawdy numbers?

Are you comparing Oscar to Lebron based on similarities between their skillsets or their stats? Having watched some game tapes of the Big O, i don't really get the feel of a Lebron.

[ronnymac2]

I think what Warspite is trying to say is......Billups > Oscar.

[Warspite]

Oscars modern day peer would be LBJ
Fraziers modern day peer would be Billups.

They realy arent that close when you compare them. One is a 30ppg scorer who also led the league in asts with a team built around him and the other is a 20ppg scorer who led a team of stars to titles.

Frazier is a better leader and defender but unless Oscar has a broken arm or leg and in some cases both hes about 60-70% the player Oscar was. Oscar would do much better than Frazier on a current lottery team but Frazier would have a better chance to take a playoff team to the Finals.

Dont sell Oscars accomplishments short as he took Russells Celtics to 7 games a few times and won a title with KAJ and an expansion team. If MJ was a better rebounder and passer he would be Oscar Robertson.

Having said that, who would you rather have on your team? What is more valuable to you, leadership and defense or the ability to put up gawdy numbers?

Are you comparing Oscar to Lebron based on similarities between their skillsets or their stats? Having watched some game tapes of the Big O, i don't really get the feel of a Lebron.

To be honest there is no player that is like Oscar. We are talking about a player who as good as MJ at scoring and Magic at passing and rebounding. LBJ is the closest player to Oscar and they are similar in that they both play a hybrid point forward game and are physical freaks. I honestly think there games are similar except that LBJ uses the 3pt shot and has no midrange game and Oscar uses the midrange game and has no 3pt shot. They both want to get into a triple threat draw a double team or create for teammates.

I thought about CP3 for Frazier but Frazier was a much bigger player that was a better defender. In a way I respect Frazier more than a 10-12apg player because he ran the offense and the team with the fewer touches and alot less over dribbleing and IMHO he would be the alltime leader in 2ndary assts like they do in hockey.

Im a Piston and Billups fan (Im wearing his jersey right now) but to describe Chauncy I would have to talk about that guy you play or bet and after you win he says "2 out of 3?" and then "3out of 5" and so on and so on. Chauncy Billups doesnt play hard untill the other team has 3 wins and isnt 100% untill after the other team wins 4 games. He believes hes playing a 9 game series and could care less about the 1st 7 games. If you look at his record its dismal in game 3,5,7.

[heatboY]

Would peple on this site please stop comparing LBJ to the big O! I went back and watched a few games with Oscar and he and Lebron are nothing alike. Oscar was more in the Wade mode than the lebron mode. people really Underestimate Oscar because he was on such crappy teams. Clyde was 1 of the top defenders of all time and 10 times better than Chauncey who plays good team D but isn't the man defender Clyde was.

The big O was better than Clyde by a lot. Many of the players from Oscar's era say he was better than Jordan. All i'm saying is that it's an insult to compare a player like Oscar to Clyde, who was in his own right a great player. Give Oscar more credit than that.

[The Main Event]

Would peple on this site please stop comparing LBJ to the big O! I went back and watched a few games with Oscar and he and Lebron are nothing alike. Oscar was more in the Wade mode than the lebron mode. people really Underestimate Oscar because he was on such crappy teams. Clyde was 1 of the top defenders of all time and 10 times better than Chauncey who plays good team D but isn't the man defender Clyde was.

The big O was better than Clyde by a lot. Many of the players from Oscar's era say he was better than Jordan. All i'm saying is that it's an insult to compare a player like Oscar to Clyde, who was in his own right a great player. Give Oscar more credit than that.

Clyde wasn't mentioned in this thread until you brought him up good sir.

[shawngoat23]

Clyde wasn't mentioned in this thread until you brought him up good sir.

Clyde = Walt Frazier

[TMACFORMVP]

I don't think it's an insult to compare the two, Oscar was better, but Frazier is one of the top perimeter defenders to have ever played (on another level compared to Oscar), great all rounded player himself, all while being a dominant playoff scorer (many seasons over 20+). I'm sure if Clyde played in a different system where he dominated the ball more, he'd be near Oscar's assists as well. He was the leader of two championship teams, and arguably a Top 3 PG to have ever played the game.

But I understand where your coming from in general, Oscar does get a tad bit overlooked from what I've seen, maybe because of playing with West in that era, who now is regarded as the greater individual, but I think Frazier is in the same boat too as his career gets overlooked as well.

[Point forward]

Oscar is the #2 PG of all time, and Frazier about #4-6. It is like comparing Bird and Worthy: the worse one is a stellar player but the better one is still WAY better. Frazier also had the shorter peak and shorter career than Oscar.

[JordansBulls]

Oscars modern day peer would be LBJ
Fraziers modern day peer would be Billups.

They realy arent that close when you compare them. One is a 30ppg scorer who also led the league in asts with a team built around him and the other is a 20ppg scorer who led a team of stars to titles.

Frazier is a better leader and defender but unless Oscar has a broken arm or leg and in some cases both hes about 60-70% the player Oscar was. Oscar would do much better than Frazier on a current lottery team but Frazier would have a better chance to take a playoff team to the Finals.

Dont sell Oscars accomplishments short as he took Russells Celtics to 7 games a few times and won a title with KAJ and an expansion team. If MJ was a better rebounder and passer he would be Oscar Robertson.

How far did Oscar go as the "Man" on his team? Not only that, but he had HCA the following years and lost in the playoffs.

lost in ’61-62, ’64-65, ’72-73, ’73-74

In '61-62 he lost to a team below .500. In '64-65 he lost to a team that was .500

Oscar was an underachiever when it mattered most in the playoffs. His numbers drop in every category from season to playoffs.

So yeah don't overrate Oscar a guy who never won as the man and lost to teams below .500 in the playoffs and a team at .500 with HCA and whose numbers drop in every category from season to playoffs.

[TrueLAfan]

Today, Oscar would measure at 6'6" or maybe even 6'7", and about 215-220. As a player, I think of Oscar as the PG equivalent of Tim Duncan on offense. He had the great size and terrific fundamental skills and used them extremely well on that end. His rebound rate was around 9 in his top years, and more like 7.5 in his later years...nothing like Magic. Oscar, as a rebounder, was a slightly lesser version of Jason Kidd...which is still very good for a guard and outstanding for a PG. Even adjusted for modern numbers, Oscar is something like a 27-11-7 player.

Interestingly, Oscar's basketball smarts and size advantage were largely confined to the offensive end. He was a good rebounder at his best, was average more often than that, and slipped to below average in his final years. He didn't seem to know how to use his size in the same way on D.

And it's true that Oscar did not produce as well as he should have with his teams. Oscar had good to very good teams with Royals, which often included good frontcourt and backcourt players so the teams were fairly well balanced. They only had a winning percentage of .522, won 50 games only once, and had less than 40 wins four times. Oscar bears a certain responsibility for that.

Walt Frazier is better than his numbers show. He played within a system that emphasized team passing, which reduced his individual assist numbers. and he was truly a great leader, in or near the elite group in that category. It really isn't like comparing Bird and Worthy. It's more like comparing Bird and, say, John Havlicek. Bird, like Oscar, is better. But not a whole lot. It's certainly no insult to compare them.