RealGM 100 Greatest Players #90

[penbeast0]

Voting will remain open for 3 days

Cast a vote, and nominate a player please.

This is based on the players career, rather than peak, just to be clear.

Neil Johnston was the last player chosen, here is the newest addition to the list:

Cliff Hagan

839g 28.7mpg .454fg% 5.0fta .799ft% 6.6reb 3.2ast 17.7pts
2 All-NBA 2nd teams
5 NBA All-Star games
1 ABA All-star games
5x top 10 fg%
3x top 10 foul draw
2x top 10 rebounding
4x top 10 assists
4x top 10 points

Spencer Haywood .

844g 34.8mpg .469fg% 5.5fta .796ft% 10.6reb 1.9ast 20.9pts
1st underclassman ever drafted
1970 ABA rookie of year and MVP
2 1st team All-NBA
2 2nd team All-NBA
1 1st team All-ABA
5 All-Star Games
Led ABA in scoring and rebounding
Suspended for Drug Abuse

Chauncey Billups

731g 32.1min .416fg% 4.4x3a .387 4.7fta .888ft% 2.9reb 5.6ast 15.1pts
4 time All-Star
2 time All-Defensive (2nd)
2 time All-NBA (2nd, 3rd)
2003-2004 Final MVP

Lenny Wilkens

1077g 35.3min .432fg% 6.5fta .774 4.7reb 6.7ast 16.5pts
9 All-Star games
NBA assists leader 1969-70 and 1971-72
2nd in MVP voting 1967-68
Hall of Fame


Walt Bellamy

1043g 37.3min .516fg% 7.8fta .632ft% 13.7reb 2.4ast 20.1pts
4-Time NBA All-Star, 1962-65
1961-62 NBA Rookie of the Year
Hall of Fame 1993


Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway

704g 33.7min .458fg% 2.3x3a .316x3% 4.0fta .774ft% 4.5reb 5.0ast 15.2pts
4-time All-Star
3-time All-NBA Selection
1994 All-Rookie First Team

Voting will remain open for 3 days

[penbeast0]

VOTING:

Lenny Wilkens had a long career at a consistent All-Star level, his playmaking is at a much higher level than either Penny Hardaway or Billups but his scoring is far less efficient. Billups is both the most efficient of the guards and the best defender. Penny and Chauncey both had/have short peaks but with team success that Wilkens doesn't have. Of these three, Billups is the most impressive (Penny doesn't even have numbers over him much to my surprise).

The raw numbers favor Bellamy or Spencer Haywood, both had a HUGE rookie year then tailed off due to respectively overeating and drug use. Hagan was the biggest winner (other than Billups) with his St. Louis teams and is tremendously well rounded but his peak and minutes are short.

It is either Billups or Haywood, I will vote for Spencer Haywood . . .


NOMINATION:

BIg Men (in a rough order):
2. Buck Williams 959 34.9 .554 5.3 .663 11.0 1.4 14.7
3. Shawn Kemp 897 29.5 .494 6.2 .740 9.0 1.8 16.0
4. Maurice Lucas 885 31.4 .473 4.0 .764 9.8 2.6 15.7
5. Tommy Heinsohn 654 29.4 .405 5.1 .790 8.8 2.0 18.6 *only played 9 years
6. Tom Chambers 933 33.0 .471 6.3 .808 6.6 2.3 20.0

Wings (again, roughly in order):
Player (12 years) G MP FG% 3PA 3p% FTA FT% REB AST PTS
2 Bob Dandridge 828 35.4 .484 (no 3 pt) 4.1 .781 6.9 3.4 18.7
3 Jamaal Wilkes 828 32.9 .499 (no 3 pt) 3.5 .759 6.2 2.5 17.7
4 Mark Aguirre 884 30.4 .485 1.3 .305 5.5 .742 5.0 3.1 20.4
5 Marques Johnson 691 34.3 .518 0.2 .152 4.7 .739 7.0 3.6 20.1 *11 years -- injuries
6 David Thompson 592* 32.8 505 0.3 .255 7.3 .781 4.1 3.3 22.7 *9 years -- drugs
7 Shawn Marion 732 37.6 .480 2.7 .337 3.1 .820 9.9 2.0 17.8 *10 years
8 Gus Johnson 632 33.0 .440 (no 3 pt) 4.2 .700 13.1 2.8 17.6 *10 years -- injuries

Point Guards
2 Mark Price 722 29.9 .472 3.4 .402 3.3 .904 2.6 6.7 15.2
3 Tim Hardaway 857 35.6 .432 5.0 .355 3.8 .782 3.3 8.3 17.9
4 Tony Parker 581* 33.2 .488 1.7 .316 3.9 .722 3.1 5.5 16.3 *only 8 years so far, age 26!
5 Maurice Cheeks 934 33.3 .526 0.2 .250 2.9 .794 3.0 7.1 12.0
6 Richie Guerin =840 32.6 .416 (no 3pt) 6.6 .780 5.1 5.0 17.5

NOMINATION: Quite frankly, with the possible exceptions of Buck Williams and Mark Price (and neither is compelling) the next 7 best players are all wing scorers.

Bob Dandridge was a great second option on two championship teams in the 1970s. Nicknamed "the Greyhound" for his quickness, he played 3, 4, and 2 with excellent scoring and great defense. Jamaal Wilkes is very similar at a slightly lower level.

Mark Aquirre was the main man scoring 25-30ppg for several years for a good Dallas team before becoming a role player in Detroit to get a ring. An efficient post-up scorer, he was considered the equivalent of a number of peers already in: Nique, English, Dantley, King. Marques Johnson is similarly talented peer who couldn't get past Bird/Erving/Magic with injury issues so I rate him a step below Aquirre.

David Thompson may be the third greatest scoring guard ever to play the game (Jordan, Gervin . . . Thompson at his peak is comparable to Kobe, West for scoring, if not for anything else). The man Michael Jordan says he modeled his game after, "the Skywalker" was one of the most exciting players ever, a peer of Dr. J and Michael Jordan, before cocaine took him down. He led some good Denver teams to playoff births too, it wasn't just flashy numbers on weak squads.

Gus Johnson was a monster rebounder and brutal dunker who could score, plus he has All-Defense team nominations! . . . think Shawn Marion but bulkier. Only constant injuries keep him from being rated much higher; I might take Marion first actually (arguably better rebounder pace adjusted, consistent leader board in steals, healthier, PER is consistently higher too).

How to compare:
Peak: Thompson and Aquirre had short but spectacular peaks with explosive scoring, Johnson and Dandridge didn't score at the same level but were the top defenders.
Career: Aquirre and Dandridge had longer stronger career arcs.

Awards:
Dandridge got only 1 All-NBA and 1 All-Defense though in a much tougher era for SFs
Aguirre never got an All-NBA nomination despite several great scoring years
Thompson got 1 All-ABA and 2 All-NBA awards and was in the scoring charts through his peak
Gus got 4 All-NBA nominations, 2 All-Defense, and was a league leader in rebounding.

Although I am tempted to say David Thompson because he was one of a very few players (Kareem, Shaq, Jordan, Erving, Gervin) that could score literally at will, the drug use and lack of defense leave me supporting Bobby Dandridge.

Nominate BOBBY DANDRIDGE

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Penny

Nominate: Kemp

[shawngoat23]

Vote: Spencer Haywood. Last MVP remaining, and the others went quite a while ago.

Nominate: David Thompson.

[TheSheriff]

vote Lenny Wilkens


Nominate: Thompson

[Baller 24]

Vote: Billups

Nominate: David Thompson

Penny's been there for 16 spots now, crazy. I still think he belongs below David Thompson, who also had a short career, but a terrific peak which was also longer than Penny's, with just as much success.

[penbeast0]

One more player to consider . . . Arvidas Sabonis . . . I may switch my vote to him if people think we are ready for a Euro

[ronnymac2]

Penny Hardaway = Grant Hill = T-Mac. Penny should really go.

Vote: Penny

Nominate: Agguire

I'd consider changing to Sabonis though.

[shawngoat23]

One more player to consider . . . Arvidas Sabonis . . . I may switch my vote to him if people think we are ready for a Euro

I'd consider Sabonis. But are we basing this exclusively on NBA/ABA career?

[penbeast0]

Last two times I asked that question (because I forgot too), I think Baller said it was ok to consider non-NBA careers but then we forgot about it again . . . maybe at this point we should say NBA/ABA only so we don't look as Americentric

[TrueLAfan]

Vote: Penny Hardaway. Best peak.
Nominate: Marques Johnson. From 1979-1981, Marques Johnson made an All-NBA first team and two All-NBA second teams. He beat out or was ahead of the following players in voting.

Bob Dandridge (2nd team to Marques' 1st in 1979)
Jamaal Wilkes
David Thompson (at or near his peak in 1979)
Julius Erving (once, in 1979--Julius averaged 23.2-7.2-4.6)
Bernard King (who was great in 1979 and 1981)
Adrian Dantley (who started his scoring binge with the Jazz in 1980)
Alex English (first breakout year was 1981)

Considering Erving was healthy every year and Bird entered the league in 1980 and guys like Mike Mitchell and Otis Birdsong were great at the time and Marques actually was #6 in MVP voting in one of those years and had several other years besides those three where he was almost as good...he's still my pick.

[Harison]

Vote: Penny
Nominate: Arvydas Sabonis

[shawngoat23]

Last two times I asked that question (because I forgot too), I think Baller said it was ok to consider non-NBA careers but then we forgot about it again . . . maybe at this point we should say NBA/ABA only so we don't look as Americentric

Agreed. If we include foreign competition, I'd imagine Sabonis would be at least comparable to Robinson, considering he absolutely destroyed him. And perhaps you can dock him a few dozen spots for not playing the NBA or for being injury prone. That's quite severe, and it would still put him... probably 50 spots higher than he could possibly go.

It would kind of look bad if we included him right now, but it's also an injustice to leave him off.

[TheSheriff]

Last two times I asked that question (because I forgot too), I think Baller said it was ok to consider non-NBA careers but then we forgot about it again . . . maybe at this point we should say NBA/ABA only so we don't look as Americentric

Agreed. If we include foreign competition, I'd imagine Sabonis would be at least comparable to Robinson, considering he absolutely destroyed him. And perhaps you can dock him a few dozen spots for not playing the NBA or for being injury prone. That's quite severe, and it would still put him... probably 50 spots higher than he could possibly go.

It would kind of look bad if we included him right now, but it's also an injustice to leave him off.

This is late, and i'd rather not have to evaluate guys i've rarely seen play and whose numbers i have no way of accurately measuring. If we were going to vote on Euros he probably should have gone much higher...

[penbeast0]

Easy fix: "RealGM's 100 Greatest NBA/ABA Players"

[jeahwe]

[I'd imagine Sabonis would be at least comparable to Robinson, considering he absolutely destroyed him.

When Sabonis absolutely destroyed Robinson? Because if you talking about 1988 Olympic semifinal game you are completly wrong. Robinson outscored Sabonis 19 to 13 had more blocks, and they both were comparble at boards (12 Admiral, 13 Arvydas). Soviets won because Kurtinaitis scored 28 points and was deadly from outside (4 threes).

And if you guys will start picking euros don't forget about Drazen and Belov - they both achived more in euro basketball than Sabonis. Belov even was chosen by FIBA as the best european player of all time.

[penbeast0]

Voting so far:

Penny 4
Haywood 2
Wilkens 1
Billups 1

Nominations:
David Thompson 3
Dandridge, Kemp, Aguirre, Marques Johnson, Sabonis 1 each

Two notes: Sabonis's skillset was pretty incredible adn I can believe the Euroleague dominance stories (though he apparently didn't have a great work ethic over there).

I never saw Belov but I saw Petrovic in his best NBA seasons and wasn't that impressed. He didn't play defense, didn't work hard when the ball wasn't in his hands, was a typical big scorer on a bad team type except that his percentages were very good. I actually thought Sarunis Marciulionis was better, not quite the volume scorer but an excellent defender with a Jerry Sloan type linebacker game (charge the lane and knock people down to draw fouls . . . plus a decent 3 point shot). Unfortunately he had a career ending injury before he could get a chance at big minutes since he came to the NBA in GS playing behind Chris Mullin and Mitch Richmond on the Run-TMC teams.

Also, though Marques Johnson made his 1st team All-NBA over Bobby Dandridge's 2nd team, Dandridge finished 5th in MVP voting that year over Marques . . . a fitting summary of their careers.