Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast"..

Dat Pass · Post #1 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:56 pm

I cant believe how many people think that LeBron's supporting cast is so far inferior to Kobe's... I dont get it at all, especially when you factor that the Cavs have the best defensive team in the league.

Cavs Guards:
Mo (18-4-4), West (12-3-3), Gibson (8-2-2), Wally (7-3-1) (All shoot 37% or better from 3)

Lakers Guards:
Fisher (11-2-3), Ariza (9-4-2), Farmar (7-2-2), Vujacic (6-2) (Only Fisher shoots 37% or better)

Cavs Bigs:
Big Z (14-7), Varejao (9-7), Ben Wallace (3-7)

Lakers Bigs:
Gasol (19-9-4), Odom (11-8), Powell (5-3), Bynum (14-8.. Played half season)

Without Bynum, how can you say Kobe has a way better supporting cast? Especially when you factor in that the Cavs have THE BEST defensive team in the league... The Lakers are a below average defensive team. I would love for an explanation as to why everyone thinks LeBron has soo little to work with.

Mo/West/Gibson >>>> Fisher/Farmar/Ariza
Wally = Vujacic
Big Z <<< Gasol
Varejao =< Odom
Wallace = Powell
Cavs D >>>>>> Lakers D

RoyceDa59 · Post #2 » by **RoyceDa59** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:56 pm

Oh boy.

Dat Pass · Post #3 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:58 pm

I realize its another LeBron/Kobe thread, so Im sorry if your sick of them... But I hear people say ALL the time how great Kobe's teammates are and how LeBron has very little to work with...

Tim_Hardawayy · Post #4 » by **Tim_Hardawayy** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:59 pm

Lets put up basic stats without any efficiency numbers, then list off a bunch of players with greater than or less than symbols by them to make a point.

You would think Lakers fans would be happy with having the (potentially) best team in basketball. But no, they still have to trash them just enough that Kobe can be on LeBron's level as well.

Dat Pass · Post #5 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:01 pm

How am I trashing the Lakers? I have never said anything bad about them.. Im just sick of hearing how little LeBron has to work with, and how they wouldnt even make the playoffs without him, whereas people still think the Lakers would win 50+ games without Kobe.

Tim_Hardawayy · Post #6 » by **Tim_Hardawayy** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:05 pm

The only other thing I'm going to add to this topic (because it really isn't necessary with the MVP thread), is that Gasol is easily, by far the next best player out of both teams not named LeBron or Kobe. For that matter, if Bynum were healthy, he'd probably be the third best, and Odom is comparable to Mo Williams and Big Z.

In basketball, having a great 2 or 3 players is more important than being solid all the way through, as many championship teams have proven. To this extent, the Lakers easily beat the Cavaliers. This is the same reason why teams are saving for 2010 instead of collecting a bunch of good roleplayers.

Roger Murdock · Post #7 » by **Roger Murdock** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:09 pm

Pau Gasol is EASILY the best player out of both teams supporting casts. Although Mo williams is great, Pau is capable of being the best player on a team that wins 50 games without a great supporting cast, as he did a few years ago.

Ok so lets compare

Gasol is much better than Big Z
Mo Williams is much better than Derrick Fisher
West and Ariza are more of less equal, maybe a slight edge to Delonte but I don't know.
Farmar and Gibson both kinda suck so I don't really know whose better.
Wally World and Pavs are slightly better than the Machine.
Lamar Odom for all is faults, is still clearly better than Varajao.
Wallace is slightly better than Powell.

So it basically a wash for talent above. The cavs may have more smaller edges in talent, but LA has a few big edges in talent.

Keep in mind this is ignoring the Mike Brown vs Phil Jackson coaching matchup, and Andrew Bynum when healthy.

I agree that the talent is very even right now, but Cleveland is healthy and LA is not.

Dat Pass · Post #8 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:12 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:The only other thing I'm going to add to this topic (because it really isn't necessary with the MVP thread), is that Gasol is easily, by far the next best player out of both teams not named LeBron or Kobe. For that matter, if Bynum were healthy, he'd probably be the third best, and Odom is comparable to Mo Williams and Big Z.

In basketball, having a great 2 or 3 players is more important than being solid all the way through, as many championship teams have proven. To this extent, the Lakers easily beat the Cavaliers. This is the same reason why teams are saving for 2010 instead of collecting a bunch of good roleplayers.

How do the Lakers have 2 or 3 great players?

They have Gasol... Bynum has been hurt for half the season, just like he was last year.. And even when he played this season, he was no better than Big Z.. And Odom has never/will never be considered great by any stretch of the imagination. I will never consider an 11-8 player to be great. So if you want to compare it that way.. The Lakers have an All-Star in Gasol and the Cavs have an All-Star in Mo Williams.

Dat Pass · Post #9 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:14 pm

Roger Murdock wrote:Pau Gasol is EASILY the best player out of both teams supporting casts. Although Mo williams is great, Pau is capable of being the best player on a team that wins 50 games without a great supporting cast, as he did a few years ago.

Ok so lets compare

Gasol is much better than Big Z
Mo Williams is much better than Derrick Fisher
West and Ariza are more of less equal, maybe a slight edge to Delonte but I don't know.
Farmar and Gibson both kinda suck so I don't really know whose better.
Wally World and Pavs are slightly better than the Machine.
Lamar Odom for all is faults, is still clearly better than Varajao.
Wallace is slightly better than Powell.

So it basically a wash for talent above. The cavs may have more smaller edges in talent, but LA has a few big edges in talent.

Keep in mind this is ignoring the Mike Brown vs Phil Jackson coaching matchup, and Andrew Bynum when healthy.

I agree that the talent is very even right now, but Cleveland is healthy and LA is not.

But you ignored the same thing that everyone ignores when thinking about the Cavs.

Defense. They have the best defensive team in the league.

Post #10 » by **TheOUTLAW** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:16 pm

As has been previously mentioned, it is Gasol, Bynum and Odom that give the Lakers the edge. They've got some extremely good and talented bigs in those 3 that make it very tough for the Cavs. And to say that Varejao is that close to Odom is very disengenuous.

Cybulski37 · Post #11 » by **Cybulski37** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:16 pm

The Cavs hit their shots, but seriously, they get so many wide open looks because of LeBron.. look at how much Mo's 3 pt % has increased. And there are only two guys on the team you can give the ball to and just let things happen. That's Mo, and LeBron James. When those two, especially LeBron, aren't on the floor, the offense just looks lost. Nobody else can create their own shot and they don't run many plays. But, I'll give the benefit of the doubt here and admit that the Cavs are better shooters. But the Lakers are better at rebounding, scoring inside, and creating their own shots. That's just a fact.

Also, the reason the Cavaliers have a better D is LeBron James. He is the best defender on the Cavs and the only one without a weakness defensively(Delonte and Ben are also excellent defenders, but Delonte is only 6'4" and Ben is too slow to guard the faster 4s in the league).

Wade2k6 · Post #12 » by **Wade2k6** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:17 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Lets put up basic stats without any efficiency numbers, then list off a bunch of players with greater than or less than symbols by them to make a point.

You would think Lakers fans would be happy with having the (potentially) best team in basketball. But no, they still have to trash them just enough that Kobe can be on LeBron's level as well.

Exactly. Couldn't have put it any better.

Kobes supporting cast is clearly better then LeBrons.

Dat Pass · Post #13 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:19 pm

TheOUTLAW wrote:As has been previously mentioned, it is Gasol, Bynum and Odom that give the Lakers the edge. They've got some extremely good and talented bigs in those 3 that make it very tough for the Cavs. And to say that Varejao is that close to Odom is very disengenuous.

Bynum will miss half the season.. And even while playing he put up very similar numbers to Z.

Odom is an 11-8 player. Why do so many people consider him to be so special?

I love Odom.. but he is not nearly as great as everyone makes him out to be.

Dat Pass · Post #14 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:20 pm

Wade2k6 wrote:Kobes supporting cast is clearly better then LeBrons.

You can honestly say that?

Without Bynum.. and factoring in the Cavs VASTLY superior defense... ?

youngcrev · Post #15 » by **youngcrev** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:26 pm

Do people really still argue that Lebron doesn't have much to work with? I think he has an outstanding complementary cast of shooters and defenders.

I'd say the Lakers have a much more talented supporting cast (Gasol is just so much better than anything else on the Cavs), but I think the Cavs are a case of the whole being better than the sum of the parts because they fit so perfectly with Lebron.

Post #16 » by **TheOUTLAW** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:30 pm

The Cavs defense is actually driven by the versatility of LeBron. It is LeBrons ability to guard 1-4 that allows the Cavs to help on defense so liberally.

Fact is Odom is a huge matchup problem for alot of teams. I don't care that's he's only putting up 11-8. He has to be accounted for on defense.

I wonder why people are always overstating the comments about the Cavs players. I don't see anyone saying that they are bad, they really aren't although the vast majority of them are not players that can create their own shots. They really are dependent on LeBron getting an inordinate amount of attention but that's okay as long as he's on the team.

Dat Pass · Post #17 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:35 pm

I cant believe that your giving LeBron all the credit for the Cavs defense.

And I agree that Odom CAN BE a nightmare for the other team, when he wants to be... But the problem is he dissappears for not only quarters at a time.. But for weeks at a time. (For one stretch of 10 games, Odom averaged only 5pts and 5rbs) And hes only scored 20+ points 5 times this entire season.

Im not saying that hes not a decent player, and hes certainly important to the Lakers. But people overrate his "possibilities" way more than the actual player that he is.

Cybulski37 · Post #18 » by **Cybulski37** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:40 pm

youngcrev wrote:Do people really still argue that Lebron doesn't have much to work with? I think he has an outstanding complementary cast of shooters and defenders.

I'd say the Lakers have a much more talented supporting cast (Gasol is just so much better than anything else on the Cavs), but I think the Cavs are a case of the whole being better than the sum of the parts because they fit so perfectly with Lebron.

Exactly. They fit perfectly around LeBron and the Cavs as a team are greater than the sum of their parts. But without LeBron, the team's weaknesses get exposed. Small jumpshooting teams with no inside scoring or great playmakers don't win many games. If there was one defender who could somehow neutralize LeBron into an average player, meaning without help defense, the Cavs would absolutely fail. LeBron is the key to the team running. If he isn't drawing defenders, the other guys' wide open shots stop coming. And then the Cavs have no offense that they could run for 48 minutes unless Mo is hot.

Post #19 » by **TheOUTLAW** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:41 pm

Oh no, I'm not giving LeBron all the credit, but he is the main driver in the Cavs defense. To be honest the Cavs have seriously been missing Wallace on defense as well but it's LeBron that tends to be used as the Cavs cooler on defense when they need one. Oh and Varejao and West are both very good defensive players.

Dat Pass · Post #20 » by **Dat Pass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:02 pm

Heres a comparison with both Bynum and Odom...

Odom v. Varejao (per 36min)

Odom (13.5ppg, 9.9rpg, 3.1apg, 1.3spg, 1.6bpg .495fg% PER=16.3)
Varejao (10.9ppg, 9.1rpg, 1.2apg, 1.1spg, 1.0bpg .533fg% PER=14.3)

And since LeBron fans love the Win Shares.. Varejao is at 6.6 compared to 5.6 for Odom.

Bynum v. Big Z (per 36min)

Bynum (17.3ppg, 10.1rpg, 1.8apg, 2.3bpg .558fg% PER=20.0)
Ilgauskas (17.9ppg, 9.8rpg, 1.3apg, 1.7bpg .486fg% PER=19.0)

Ill admit that I think both Bynum and Odom are the better players, but I really dont think its as drastic as everyone wants to make it out to be..