RealGM

I've been analyzing and reading about the elite Swingmen, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan. I just wanted to turn on the light, and point out their weaknesses. Why would I want to do that? I think it's fun, seeing "complete" players for what they really are, in terms of raw ability, intagibles, and the way they play on the court. I, myself, believe that Michael Jordan is significantly better than Kobe Bryant. I am not a Kobe Hater either, I am just being realistic here. So. Here's the breakdown of their weaknessess. Also, I'd want to help out with the Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan debates.

(Revised) Kobe Bryant's negatives are:

- Is not as mentally tough as Michael Jordan is, I.E when he got benched at the Celtics Finals when his team was losing... when he said at a Celtics Final loss that "I'll go drown my sorrows in shots.. preferably 30 of them."

- He crapped on Bynum, and demanded to ship his ass out

- He demanded a trade when things were going badly for him at his early years after Shaq

- Complained about airplane flights to Colorado

- Is not as efficient as Michael Jordan is

- Is not a good shotblocker as Michael Jordan was

- Is not good of a ball thief as Michael Jordan was

- Kobe Bryant is interested more in scoring than running the offense, thus, making him more turnover prone. He can be rather selfish. He does not have a Point Guard's mentality, he has a Swingman's mentality.

- He has small hands, making him more turnover prone

- He takes too many difficult shots, likes to make difficult shots, and make fadeaways. Teams
tend to abuse that aspect of him, and turn him into a volume scorer to render him inefficient. Too creative, basically for his own good

-He can be neutralized with "team defense", rotating defenders around him, turning him into a volume shooting non-decoy guy, and making him take volumes of shots, the Celtics and the Pistons are an example of the teams that utilized this weakness to their advantage

- He is not "stubborn" as Michael Jordan is, when attacking the basket

- He does not play the passing lanes as well as Jordan does. I doubt that he ever averaged 3+ steals

- He is a ballhog, examples are, when he took alot of shots against Detroit in the finals

- Has one of the worst Finals performances of all time against the Pistons

- Needs a great to dominant Big man to win Championships, Michael Jordan does not need a great/dominant big man to win Championships

- Cheated on his wife at Colorado, which damaged the Lakers dynasty and his reputation

- Was a loner, and alienated his teammates during his early years at L.A

- His lifestyle is at odds against the prevailing hip-hop culture of NBA. There are accounts that Kobe Bryant at away games works out hard all day long at the gym, and then does his thing. He doesn't party like Shaquille O'Neal and is not as likeable as him, which gives the wrong impression to his teammates. At Home games, he drives home and sees his kids and wife, instead of partying out. This affects his relationships with his teammates

(Revised) Michael Jordan's negatives are:

- He can't play with a classic Drive-and-dish point guard, since he wants to create his own shots, and the Drive-and-dish point guards make it harder for him to be himself. They had to use Pippen as a Small Forward to counter act this weakness, and when they did used him as Point Forward, Michael Jordan rose to new heights. Also, one time, Jordan said that he didn't want Isaiah Thomas and wanted Scottie Pippen instead. Shows how much he needed Pippen

- He abused his teammates, and teared apart various people that he was with during his tenure at the Chicago Bulls, he insulted and teared apart Luc Longley, and loved to bully him. Luc Longley even remarked that "Jordan relished in taking out you're heart, and showing it to others." He made Pippen work extra hard at practice, and he always went hard on Pippen, and made life unpleasant for him. He punched Steve Kerr when Michael got angry with Kerr. This does not make a pleasant or inspiring leader. Horace Grant, followed Michael Jordan's example, and did the same thing to his teammates at Orlando. This is not good. Imagine if you have to hang around with him every single day, always insulting you, or berating you, or being critical of you. He called a person one time "You are a powerless forward."

- Team Defense, and the Jordan Rules, physical play, shoving him to the ground, that's what the Bad Boy Pistons did to him. They won the ECF Crown as a result, in 1989, and 1990, and they made Jordan work hard for his points and stats

- Did not have any winning records before Scottie Pippen came in to be his personal Point Forward

- He was a ball hog, he refused to give up the scoring crown when Phil Jackson asked him to, for the good of the team. Steve Kerr even remarked once that Jordan cared more about scoring titles than winning

- He wanted to be the reason why his team won. He said it himself "I like winning, but only when I was the reason that they won.", and he abused Kerr and Pippen for this when they took game winning shots for Chicago

- He needs an excellent to dominant, hyper-athletic, Point Forward who can play exceptional defense at the perimeter or at the post to win Championships. Examples are Scottie Pippen/Lebron James

- Is not as good of a three point shooter as Bryant is

- He gave up on the sport. He got tired of winning all the time, and he retired after 1993. What kind of franchise would want a player who gives up on the sport just because he's winning all the time? I'd rather take Bill Russell, thanks, he never gets "tired" of "winning all the time"

- Michael Jordan is selfish. Michael Jordan is interested more in scoring than running the offense, thus, making him more turnover prone. It took Phil Jackson for Michael Jordan to stop being so ball-dominant, and pass the ball. One time, he played at Point Guard, and he averaged most of his triple doubles at that position. He does not have a Point Guard's mentality, he has a Swingman's mentality.

- Michael Jordan has proven that he cannot be a winner outside of the Triangle Offense, and lift his teams to winning records, I.E Washington Wizards, showing his limited ability to blend his game with other players (even though he was past his prime, but still..)

That's it. Overall, my main question is, Is Kobe Bryant's set of weaknessess worse than Jordan's, or vice versa? How will this affect you're opinions of Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan?

You basically listed all of Kobe Bryant's basketball weaknesses, without really touching on personality or off-court stuff (except a tiny bit with the criticism of being too selfish).

Then you had like 1 or 2 basketball weak points for Jordan, with the rest all being off the court stuff and personality issues.

If its OK to attack Jordan's personality and character this much, why can't we do the same for Kobe? Didn't he have a part in breaking up one of the most dominant duo's of all time? Didn't he put himself in a situation with a young woman in Colorado that served as a distraction for an entire season? Didn't he also alienate teammates, and even inspire his coach to criticize him in a book?

I mean at least be fair with the criticisms.

I think one of Kobe's weaknesses is that he's not elite at a useful portion of the game. For example, he's the best at taking tough shots, but that's not exactly the best tool for a player to have and it can hurt your team more than help at times. To be elite in staying in front of your man on-ball, being able to defend the pick and roll well, slashing to the rim and finishing, creating easy buckets for others..etc. may be more useful to the team.

NeilsCeltics wrote:I've been analyzing and reading about the elite Swingmen, Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan. I just wanted to turn on the light, and point out their weaknesses. Why would I want to do that? I think it's fun, seeing "complete" players for what they really are, in terms of raw ability, intagibles, and the way they play on the court. I, myself, believe that Michael Jordan is significantly better than Kobe Bryant. I am not a Kobe Hater either, I am just being realistic here. So. Here's the breakdown of their weaknessess. Also, I'd want to help out with the Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan debates.

Kobe Bryant's negatives are:

- He has small hands, making him more turnover prone

- He takes too many difficult shots, and likes to make difficult shots, and make fadeaways. Teams
tend to abuse that aspect of him, and turn him into a volume scorer to render him inefficient. Too creative, basically for his own good

-He can be neutralized with "team defense", rotating defenders around him, turning him into a volume shooting non-decoy guy, and making him take volumes of shots, the Celtics and the Pistons are an example of the teams that utilized this weakness to their advantage

- He is not "stubborn" as Michael Jordan is, when attacking the basket

- He does not play the passing lanes as well as Jordan does. I doubt that he ever averaged 3+ steals

- He WAS a ballhog, examples are, when he took alot of shots against Detroit in the finals

- Has one of the worst Finals performances of all time against the Pistons

- Need a great to dominant Big man to win Championships, Michael Jordan does not need a great/dominant big man to win Championships

Michael Jordan's negatives are:

- He can't play with a classic Drive-and-dish point guard, since he wants to create his own shots, and the Drive-and-dish point guards make it harder for him to be himself. They had to use Pippen as a Small Forward to counter act this weakness, and when they did used him as Point Forward, Michael Jordan rose to new heights. Also, one time, Jordan said that he didn't want Isaiah Thomas and wanted Scottie Pippen instead. Shows how much he needed Pippen

- He abused his teammates, and teared apart various people that he was with during his tenure at the Chicago Bulls, he insulted and teared apart Luc Longley, and loved to bully him. Luc Longley even remarked that "Jordan relished in taking out you're heart, and showing it to others." He made Pippen work extra hard at practice, and he always went hard on Pippen, and made life unpleasant for him. He punched Steve Kerr when Michael got angry with Kerr. This does not make a pleasant or inspiring leader. Horace Grant, followed Michael Jordan's example, and did the same thing to his teammates at Orlando. This is not good. Imagine if you have to hang around with him every single day, always insulting you, or berating you, or being critical of you. He called a person one time "You are a powerless forward."

- Team Defense, and the Jordan Rules, physical play, shoving him to the ground, that's what the Bad Boy Pistons did to him, and he got neutralized for it

- Did not have any winning records before Scottie Pippen came in to be his personal Point Forward.

- He was a ball hog, he refused to give up the scoring crown when Phil Jackson asked him to, for the good of the team. Steve Kerr even remarked once that Jordan cared more about scoring titles than winning

- He wanted to be the reason why his team won. He said it himself "I like winning, but only when I was the reason that they won.", and he abused Kerr and Pippen for this when they took game winning shots for Chicago.

- He needs a dominant Point Forward to win Championships. Examples are Scottie Pippen/Lebron James

- Is not as good of a three point shooter as Bryant is

- He gave up on the sport. He got tired of winning all the time, and he retired after 1993. What kind of franchise would want a player who gives up on the sport just because he's winning all the time? I'd rather take Bill Russell, thanks, he never gets "tired" of "winning all the time"

That's it. Overall, my main question is, Is Kobe Bryant's set of weaknessess worse than Jordan's, or vice versa? How will this affect you're opinions of Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan?

but yeah i agree with most you said but i think the main thing setting apart jordan and kobe are the size of hands.

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:You basically listed all of Kobe Bryant's basketball weaknesses, without really touching on personality or off-court stuff (except a tiny bit with the criticism of being too selfish).

Then you had like 1 or 2 basketball weak points for Jordan, with the rest all being off the court stuff and personality issues.

If its OK to attack Jordan's personality and character this much, why can't we do the same for Kobe? Didn't he have a part in breaking up one of the most dominant duo's of all time? Didn't he put himself in a situation with a young woman in Colorado that served as a distraction for an entire season? Didn't he also alienate teammates, and even inspire his coach to criticize him in a book?

I mean at least be fair with the criticisms.

Michael Jordan cheated off the court too, but that's another matter. But I do agree though, Kobe Bryant was stupid, and he cheated on his wife, which damaged the Laker's chances for a championship. About Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant? IMO, I feel that Shaquille O'Neal had a bigger part than Kobe Bryant in the break up. Shaquille O'Neal was lazy, he was a drama king, and he always abused Kobe off the court. Kobe Bryant's just being a man, and retaliating. Shaquille O'Neal healed on "company time" and caused a major embarassment at the year 2003. He wanted the full responsibility for the win, but will shirk responsibility for the loss.

Did he alienate his teammates? I don't know. Do you know any examples?

Also, the Phil Jackson part was right, he is selfish.

NeilsCeltics wrote:

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:You basically listed all of Kobe Bryant's basketball weaknesses, without really touching on personality or off-court stuff (except a tiny bit with the criticism of being too selfish).

Then you had like 1 or 2 basketball weak points for Jordan, with the rest all being off the court stuff and personality issues.

If its OK to attack Jordan's personality and character this much, why can't we do the same for Kobe? Didn't he have a part in breaking up one of the most dominant duo's of all time? Didn't he put himself in a situation with a young woman in Colorado that served as a distraction for an entire season? Didn't he also alienate teammates, and even inspire his coach to criticize him in a book?

I mean at least be fair with the criticisms.

Michael Jordan cheated off the court too, but that's another matter. But I do agree though, Kobe Bryant was stupid, and he cheated on his wife, which damaged the Laker's chances for a championship. About Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant? IMO, I feel that Shaquille O'Neal had a bigger part than Kobe Bryant in the break up. Shaquille O'Neal was lazy, he was a drama king, and he always abused Kobe off the court. Kobe Bryant's just being a man, and retaliating. Shaquille O'Neal healed on "company time" and caused a major embarassment at the year 2003. He wanted the full responsibility for the win, but will shirk responsibility for the loss.

Did he alienate his teammates? I don't know. Do you know any examples?

Also, the Phil Jackson part was right, he is selfish.

I'm not trying to only attack Kobe, I'm just saying, it looks like instead of comparing each player's criticisms on the court, you ran out of things to criticize with Jordan, and so to make it even, you started slamming his character and issues off the court.

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:

NeilsCeltics wrote:

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:You basically listed all of Kobe Bryant's basketball weaknesses, without really touching on personality or off-court stuff (except a tiny bit with the criticism of being too selfish).

Then you had like 1 or 2 basketball weak points for Jordan, with the rest all being off the court stuff and personality issues.

If its OK to attack Jordan's personality and character this much, why can't we do the same for Kobe? Didn't he have a part in breaking up one of the most dominant duo's of all time? Didn't he put himself in a situation with a young woman in Colorado that served as a distraction for an entire season? Didn't he also alienate teammates, and even inspire his coach to criticize him in a book?

I mean at least be fair with the criticisms.

Michael Jordan cheated off the court too, but that's another matter. But I do agree though, Kobe Bryant was stupid, and he cheated on his wife, which damaged the Laker's chances for a championship. About Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant? IMO, I feel that Shaquille O'Neal had a bigger part than Kobe Bryant in the break up. Shaquille O'Neal was lazy, he was a drama king, and he always abused Kobe off the court. Kobe Bryant's just being a man, and retaliating. Shaquille O'Neal healed on "company time" and caused a major embarassment at the year 2003. He wanted the full responsibility for the win, but will shirk responsibility for the loss.

Did he alienate his teammates? I don't know. Do you know any examples?

Also, the Phil Jackson part was right, he is selfish.

I'm not trying to only attack Kobe, I'm just saying, it looks like instead of comparing each player's criticisms on the court, you ran out of things to criticize with Jordan, and so to make it even, you started slamming his character and issues off the court.

Nah, I wasn't trying to hate on Jordan or anything, it's just that, to me, a Basketball player's personality and character is important off the court too, since you should also take into account, a Player's intagibles, if they have a weakness in tangibles,

I feel that it's a valid weakness, since it affects team chemistry/rapport and how a dynasty is built. Imagine if Bill Russell left when he got tired of winning when he had 5 rings, he wouldn't have the same legacy, and it would damage the Celtics dynasty.

you said, "- Need a great to dominant Big man to win Championships, Michael Jordan does not need a great/dominant big man to win Championships"

ok fine, trade me gasol and ariza for a prime rodman and pippen any day of the week and twice on sunday.

NeilsCeltics wrote:- Team Defense, and the Jordan Rules, physical play, shoving him to the ground, that's what the Bad Boy Pistons did to him, and he got neutralized for it?

MJ averaged 30 points 5.5 rebounds and 6.5 assists in the 88 series. I'm not so sure that is neutralizing anybody.

-

NeilsCeltics wrote:Did not have any winning records before Scottie Pippen came in to be his personal Point Forward.?

Well one season in thrown out due to MJ being hurt. And the other two the teams were pretty terrible. His third year the best player other than MJ was Charles Oakley. So I'm not so sure it was all Scottie Pippen.

NeilsCeltics wrote:- He needs a dominant Point Forward to win Championships. Examples are Scottie Pippen/Lebron James?

What a terrible "example" So because he won his titles with Pippen he get penalized for it?

NeilsCeltics wrote:- He gave up on the sport. He got tired of winning all the time, and he retired after 1993. What kind of franchise would want a player who gives up on the sport just because he's winning all the time? I'd rather take Bill Russell, thanks, he never gets "tired" of "winning all the time"?

I've heard a lot of theories on this one. One is that it was a suspension that the NBA just didn't want to come out with do to gambling. Plus with his father being murdered who knows what was going through his head.

NeilsCeltics wrote:That's it. Overall, my main question is, Is Kobe Bryant's set of weaknessess worse than Jordan's, or vice versa? How will this affect you're opinions of Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan?

Kobe Bryant has more weaknesses than MJ. MJ was a better all around player and that is not to take anything away from Kobe Bryant. But I'm getting a little sick of this cause Kobe has a lot of players to pass before he even gets mentioned with MJ.

The mention of titles is a bit annoying as well. With MJ with 6 and Kobe with 4. MJ never played Robin with the Bulls, Kobe has 3 titles that way. I think that means a lot of your the "main" guy.

NeilsCeltics wrote:He abused his teammates, and teared apart various people that he was with during his tenure at the Chicago Bulls, he insulted and teared apart Luc Longley, and loved to bully him. Luc Longley even remarked that "Jordan relished in taking out you're heart, and showing it to others." He made Pippen work extra hard at practice, and he always went hard on Pippen, and made life unpleasant for him. He punched Steve Kerr when Michael got angry with Kerr. This does not make a pleasant or inspiring leader. Horace Grant, followed Michael Jordan's example, and did the same thing to his teammates at Orlando. This is not good. Imagine if you have to hang around with him every single day, always insulting you, or berating you, or being critical of you. He called a person one time "You are a powerless forward."

Jordan was a jerk, more of a drill sergeant than an inspiring leader, but you can't argue with the results. The reason why Rodman, more or less, didn't go completely go off the reservation during the second three-peat partly was because he was afraid of Jordan. A big reason why its hard to win multiple titles in a row, why it's hard to put together a dynasty is because individuals find it hard to make sacrifices for the good of the team after they've already won. Even role players were stars at some point in their life, whether in college or high school or maybe early in their pro careers. Pat Riley called this "the disease of more". That didn't happen with the Bulls because everyone knew their roles, everyone kept their egos in check, because they had to play with Michael Jordan every day.

Kobe is pretty much the same way, so I'm not sure why this is labeled a supposed "Jordan" weakness when Kobe has the similar traits. This is the same guy who went in public and crapped on Andrew Bynum during the trade demand. This is the same guy who Shaq bodyslammed on the ground because of how demanding he was in practice, even as a young player. In fact, the one difference is that for a long time, people had a tough time accepting Kobe as a leader because, fairly or unfairly, he shouldered much of the blame for the Shaq trade.

Pretty much i agree with the OP, on target for all the items.

I think Jordan was more abusive of teammates than Kobe has ever been, partly because Jordan was the man on a winning team longer. Abusing and alienating teammates are two different things.

Kobe's biggest flaw in his offensive game is taking tough shots for the sake of taking tough shots. Jordan took tough shots as part of the course of the play. Jordan simply didn't force enough tough shots. He took tough shots, but only when the situation called for it.

Jordan and Kobe are both ballhoggers, but at the same time excellent passers. They could easily average 10+ assists a game if they wanted to.

Besides the "negligble" differences, it's still quite remarkable how the two superstars are similar. Watching Kobe's game, you would think that Jordan was his personal coach.

NeilsCeltics wrote:Michael Jordan's negatives are:

- He can't play with a classic Drive-and-dish point guard, since he wants to create his own shots, and the Drive-and-dish point guards make it harder for him to be himself. They had to use Pippen as a Small Forward to counter act this weakness, and when they did used him as Point Forward, Michael Jordan rose to new heights. Also, one time, Jordan said that he didn't want Isaiah Thomas and wanted Scottie Pippen instead. Shows how much he needed Pippen

- He abused his teammates, and teared apart various people that he was with during his tenure at the Chicago Bulls, he insulted and teared apart Luc Longley, and loved to bully him. Luc Longley even remarked that "Jordan relished in taking out you're heart, and showing it to others." He made Pippen work extra hard at practice, and he always went hard on Pippen, and made life unpleasant for him. He punched Steve Kerr when Michael got angry with Kerr. This does not make a pleasant or inspiring leader. Horace Grant, followed Michael Jordan's example, and did the same thing to his teammates at Orlando. This is not good. Imagine if you have to hang around with him every single day, always insulting you, or berating you, or being critical of you. He called a person one time "You are a powerless forward."

- Team Defense, and the Jordan Rules, physical play, shoving him to the ground, that's what the Bad Boy Pistons did to him, and he got neutralized for it

- Did not have any winning records before Scottie Pippen came in to be his personal Point Forward.

- He was a ball hog, he refused to give up the scoring crown when Phil Jackson asked him to, for the good of the team. Steve Kerr even remarked once that Jordan cared more about scoring titles than winning

- He wanted to be the reason why his team won. He said it himself "I like winning, but only when I was the reason that they won.", and he abused Kerr and Pippen for this when they took game winning shots for Chicago.

- He needs a dominant Point Forward to win Championships. Examples are Scottie Pippen/Lebron James

- Is not as good of a three point shooter as Bryant is

- He gave up on the sport. He got tired of winning all the time, and he retired after 1993. What kind of franchise would want a player who gives up on the sport just because he's winning all the time? I'd rather take Bill Russell, thanks, he never gets "tired" of "winning all the time"

There are so many errors or exaggerations that your argument is lost.

I'd love for you to link where you got your quotes. You have some in quotes that aren't even real quotes. The one about "you are a powerless forward" was more along the lines of 'you had 3 rebounds the last 4 games maybe we should call it the powerless forward spot' and I'm not saying that was the exact wording but it was similar. This is something you'd hear in any locker room and hardly seems unusual.

Pippen over Isiah? Sheesh shocker, Isiah hated Jordan and was jealous of his popularity. In turn Jordan hated Thomas.

"He punched Steve Kerr when Michael got angry with Kerr", should really be
"The Kerr-Jordan relationship was further strained when the two players took opposing sides in the NBA players' union split during labor talks with league owners. The bitterness came to a head during a practice in which Kerr and Jordan were repeatedly pushing off while defending each other.

Talk about gall. Kerr, who hadn't been in a fight since elementary school, took a hard shove from His Airness and suddenly started swinging. "I knew I had two choices," Kerr says. "Either let it go and be obedient to Michael forever, or fight and probably get my ass kicked. I picked a real winner for my adult fighting debut." He wound up with a black eye.

When Kerr arrived home, he found an apology from Jordan waiting on his answering machine, and the relationship quickly changed for the better. Jordan had previously ridden Kerr for everything from a missed shot to a lack of aggressiveness. That stopped after their fight, and Kerr has since become a Jordan favorite.

The stories of him being the terrible teammate are growing over time.

He gave up on the sport? - If you were around at the time, he had just won 3, lost his father to a couple idiots and said he felt it was a good time try to play his first love which was baseball and his father would have seen his last basketball game. Reinsdorf supported him but giving him the chance and still payed his NBA salary.

Jordan rules neutralized him? Come on.

"I like winning, but only when I was the reason that they won." yah pls supply a reference

You go through all of this bashing Jordan and don't even touch the obvious ones with Kobe.

Kobe alienated everyone around him. At one point all he had was his wife and agent in his corner. He even fired his agent over suggestions he sign a pre-nupt. Kobe vs Shaq, Malone, PJ, Tex, Buss, Bynum, Kupcake, hitting Samake.

Sure seems like you're going out of your way to dramatize Jordan's past and play down Kobe's.

NeilsCeltics wrote:Michael Jordan's negatives are:

There are so many errors or exaggerations that your argument is lost.

I'd love for you to link where you got your quotes. You have some in quotes that aren't even real quotes. The one about "you are a powerless forward" was more along the lines of 'you had 3 rebounds the last 4 games maybe we should call it the powerless forward spot' and I'm not saying that was the exact wording but it was similar. This is something you'd hear in any locker room and hardly seems unusual.

Pippen over Isiah? Sheesh shocker, Isiah hated Jordan and was jealous of his popularity. In turn Jordan hated Thomas.

"He punched Steve Kerr when Michael got angry with Kerr", should really be
"The Kerr-Jordan relationship was further strained when the two players took opposing sides in the NBA players' union split during labor talks with league owners. The bitterness came to a head during a practice in which Kerr and Jordan were repeatedly pushing off while defending each other.

Talk about gall. Kerr, who hadn't been in a fight since elementary school, took a hard shove from His Airness and suddenly started swinging. "I knew I had two choices," Kerr says. "Either let it go and be obedient to Michael forever, or fight and probably get my ass kicked. I picked a real winner for my adult fighting debut." He wound up with a black eye.

When Kerr arrived home, he found an apology from Jordan waiting on his answering machine, and the relationship quickly changed for the better. Jordan had previously ridden Kerr for everything from a missed shot to a lack of aggressiveness. That stopped after their fight, and Kerr has since become a Jordan favorite.

The stories of him being the terrible teammate are growing over time.

He gave up on the sport? - If you were around at the time, he had just won 3, lost his father to a couple idiots and said he felt it was a good time try to play his first love which was baseball and his father would have seen his last basketball game. Reinsdorf supported him but giving him the chance and still payed his NBA salary.

Jordan rules neutralized him? Come on.

"I like winning, but only when I was the reason that they won." yah pls supply a reference

You go through all of this bashing Jordan and don't even touch the obvious ones with Kobe.

Kobe alienated everyone around him. At one point all he had was his wife and agent in his corner. He even fired his agent over suggestions he sign a pre-nupt. Kobe vs Shaq, Malone, PJ, Tex, Buss, Bynum, Kupcake, hitting Samake.

Sure seems like you're going out of your way to dramatize Jordan's past and play down Kobe's.

Showtime:Part2 wrote:you said, "- Need a great to dominant Big man to win Championships, Michael Jordan does not need a great/dominant big man to win Championships"

ok fine, trade me gasol and ariza for a prime rodman and pippen any day of the week and twice on sunday.

Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ariza for Pippen/Grant/Cartwright/Williams. Deal? I'd make that trade any day of the week.

Jordan23Forever wrote:

Showtime:Part2 wrote:you said, "- Need a great to dominant Big man to win Championships, Michael Jordan does not need a great/dominant big man to win Championships"

ok fine, trade me gasol and ariza for a prime rodman and pippen any day of the week and twice on sunday.

Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ariza for Pippen/Grant/Cartwright/Williams. Deal? I'd make that trade any day of the week.

I don't get this, are you saying that the '09 Lakers were better than the three-peat Bulls? That's ridiculous.

I'm saying exactly what I said, that I would make that trade in a heartbeat. I tend to feel that the "talent" on the first three-peat Bulls is overrated. The team wasn't overrated, because they had good (not "OMG otherworldly!") talent, good chemistry, and the GOAT. Jordan takes a team of Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Ariza to exactly the same three titles imo, and wouldn't have to work as hard doing it.

List of things that Jordan said when being a mean guy.

http://www.armenianplanet.com/about2788.html

"
Member Avatar




Reply with quote
Mon Mar 09, 2009

From ‘The Jordan Rules’ book:

"We're beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs...Can Pip keep it up?"

"I hate being out there with those garbagemen. They don't get you the ball."

"They've got no idea what it's all about. The white guys, they work hard, but they don't have the talent. And the rest of them? Who knows what to expect? They're not good for much of anything."

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

"He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Perdue

"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his **** into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one

"He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility

"...I call them 'the Looney Tunes.' Physically, they were the best. Mentally, they weren't even close."

"He's scared. He's got no heart...Nobody told me that. If I had spoken up, he wouldn't have been here." – Michael on Dennis Hopson

"I know I can recognize what to do, but I'm not sure they can."

"It's a hell of a lot easier to make Earl Monroe look good than it is Brad Sellers."

"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"Give me the ******* ball." - Michael to Doug Collins who drew up a play for Dave Corzine

"I hate when I have to read that in the papers the next day, that I couldn't do something. It wasn't my fault."

"You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant

"If you [pass the ball to Bill Cartwright], you'll never get the ball from me."

"We're not winning because of talent. We're just beating bad teams."

"Headache tonight, Scottie?" - Michael asks Scottie, while showing him his 2-for-16 line

"It's probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up." - Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

"Five more years and I'm out of here. I'm marking these days on a calendar, like I'm in jail. I'm tired of being used by this organization, by the league, by the writers, by everyone."

"They're not interested in winning. They just want to sell tickets, which they can do because of me. They won't make any deals to make us better. And this Kukoc thing. I hate that. They're spending all their time chasing this guy."

"If I were a general manager, we'd be a better team." ( Wizards? Bobcats? )


"Will Vanderbilt. He doesn't deserve to be named after a Big Ten school." - Michael on Will Perdue

"I want to prove the critics wrong...I want to see some serious moves from management, which I really haven't seen that much of yet, and I want to see more serious attitudes from my teammates this year when it comes to the playoffs. In the past, it's been more or less a joking thing, sort of a 'Well, we're here, so let's have a good time.'"

"I'm sure everything will be fine if we win, but if we start losing, I'm shooting."

"I know what I would do if I were coach. I'd determine our strengths and weaknesses and utilize them. And it's pretty clear what our strength is."

"Your boy doesn't want to play. I'm tired of bailing his *** out." - Michael yelling at Jim Cleamons about Dennis Hopson

"I don't know about trading a 24 year-old guy for a 34 year-old guy." - Michael questioning the Oakley trade

"He's causing me too many turnovers." - Michael on Cartwright's inability to catch

"Why the hell don't you ever set a pick like that in a game?" - Michael yelling at Perdue after also hitting Perdue upside his head (led to the institution of the private curtain for practices)

wow, michael jordan is an a$$hole yo" - site from http://www.armenianplanet.com/about2788.html



Also, I read about Jordan in this site. Very informative if you ask me. http://airjudden2.tripod.com/ejf/indexf.html and... http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm.

Also, about Kobe Bryant, you are right. He alienated his teammates, he is a loner, his lifestyle is at odds against the prevailing Hip-Hop Culture of the Nba, cheated on his wife (which is very stupid)

But I say that Kobe Bryant is a nicer person than Michael Jordan, IMO. I doubt that he would rip on people like Michael Jordan did. I'll revise the negatives of Kobe Bryant.

About the "I want to be the reason that they won." comment, I forgot where I got that reference from, sorry about that. I feel that if you go to Airjudden's site, you'll see Michael Jordan in a complete different light.

Did the Jordan Rules neutralized him? I am not sure, but all I know is that the Detroit Pistons won against him, using those rules, the fact that Jordan is able to reproduce awesome numbers like that shows that he is better than Kobe Bryant. I think that Jordan is a mean person, and I don't like mean people. I am sure that you don't like mean people either.

Sorry I seemed like I was downplaying Kobe Bryant's past, I think I'll go and revise it.

^Listen, if you don't like "mean" people who talk trash, then NBA basketball probably isn't the sport for you.

NeilsCeltics wrote:List of things that Jordan said when being a mean guy.

http://www.armenianplanet.com/about2788.html

Also, I read about Jordan in this site. Very informative if you ask me. http://airjudden2.tripod.com/ejf/indexf.html and... http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm.

About the "I want to be the reason that they won." comment, I forgot where I got that reference from, sorry about that. I feel that if you go to Airjudden's site, you'll see Michael Jordan in a complete different light.

I think that Jordan is a mean person, and I don't like mean people. I am sure that you don't like mean people either.

How old are you?

Really? I mean, who would take any time to even look at a site like that? The Jordan rules book has been around forever. Nothing new there. I'm sure if you had anyone willing to publish a "Kobe rules" book it would have lots of crap in it too.

I mean Horace Grant who you feel was crapped on by Jordan actually suggested Jordan was a much better leader then Kobe

I remember Phil telling MJ that he had to trust his teammates," Grant recalls. "Mike didn't go overboard, but he'd invite guys to his room to play cards, just enough to let them know what he was about. To be a leader, everybody has to have respect for you on and off the court. You can't just be a great player. Every once in a while, you have to be able to say, 'I made a mistake. My fault.' I really don't think we have a leader right now, unless it's Phil."