Prime Wilt vs Prime Shaq

[NeilsCeltics]

Great post...and it echoes what others said about him:

"I call Wilt Chamberlain a very honest workman. By that, I mean he always did what his employer wanted. No star athlete has ever given his boss more for the money than Wilt did during his career. Eddie Gottlieb [owner of the Warriors] wanted Wilt to score like no man ever had, so Wilt did. [Alex] Hannum and some of his other coaches wantedhim to pass and play defense, so he did that and he played 48 minutes a night. Those who criticized Wilt -- first for his scoring, then for not scoring more -- really should have criticized his employer."

--Leonard Koppett, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 329

and

"I have great respect for Wilt. When I was with the Lakers, he never missed a practice or a game, or was late for a plane. If I asked him to make an appearance, he did it. This man has gone through life with a bad rap. We are talking about a very good person."

--Fred Schaus, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 334

TLAF is rigth is saying that Wilt had killer instinct, more than I had said in my posts. Wilt's "weakness,"rather, was that he was a very intelligent and multifaceted person. He had so many varied interests basketball could never be the all-in-all for him, and that's the reason, beyond his incredible skill and athleticism, that I have come to admire him. Shaq's "strength" on the other hand--and I think the man is a total buffoon despite his success on the basketball court--is that he has the myopic ability to focus totally on the one thing he does well that is the unmistakeable trademark of the dullard.

And Wilt was, IMO, just plain all-around better than Shaq was at his absolute best. Equally motivated, it's no contest--Wilt would dominate.

Well, is is true that Wilt Chamberlain is a very well rounded, intelligent, and multifaceted person who is perhaps, one of the most greatest overall human beings of All-Time, with his kindness, generosity, talent, and athleticism.

I disagree that Shaq is a dullard, and that he's a boring person.

Wilt Chamberlain is better than Shaq at defense, and rebounding. Nothing much else, as he had a very poor feel for the game, but that's just me. It would be exciting to watch them play each other.

[shawngoat23]

All I am saying is that I can't believe the 6ft 8 figure until I see it. Because
1. it would've broken the national junior record, if not the junior world record, and we know Wilt did not hold the national high jump record at any point.

So I threw out the 6'8" figure because I thought that was what he was able to jump in college. He's documented as having posted a 6'6" high jump in high school. As of late June 1956, when Wilt had finished high school, the high jump world record was 2.15 meters, which is just over 7'0.5". It's significantly higher than what Wilt posted so that there's no reason to not believe Wilt was an elite jumper, but one that does not detract from Wilt's accomplishments at all.

I'm wondering why you are so skeptical of this figure. There isn't really any margin of error in measuring high jumps. It's not like there's some advanced technology in measuring the bar that wasn't around 40-50 years ago. Numbers given for Olympic events such as the high jump (and 100 m, after the advent of electronic timing) should be taken at face value. They're incredibly accurate and well-standardized, unlike say, vertical leaps and 40 m sprints, which are extremely prone to error.

Keep in mind that Wilt had won the Big Eight high jump championship three years in a row.

Now the data from that era is very sketchy. But I have shown that his claimed jump would've been good for the gold medal at the Pan American games. How are you guys just accepting on face value ? If some current NBA player claimed to have 100m times of 9.75 seconds, nobody in thier right mind would buy it. But in Wilt's case, you expect me to.

I'm going to refer to writerman. Why is the data sketchy? It happened just 40-50 years ago, and it's extremely well-documented in writing and in the minds of contemporary observers. It's not like it's preserved on a stone tablet in some obscure ancient language. It's been told by many people in plain English about a man who lived recently. We're not taking about the epic tales of Gilgamesh here.

2. NBA.com in all likelihood took thier info from the Sporting News article, who took it from a book, which took it from an anecdote - whatever. I don't know. it is not sourced anywhere. If writerman decides to write a book tommorow and sources the high jump from NBA.com, it still doesn't make it credible. I mean, I don't know if this makes sense, but the jump is not sourced anywhere.

Take off that tin-foil hat. There's no mass conspiracy to credit Wilt Chamberlain with things he did not do. If that Sporting News article was inaccurate, someone would have called them out on it in 1956, especially since track-and-field results are extremely well-documented, and as shocking as it may seem, there were a lot of people alive then. I don't know what you're asking for. Are you expecting Jesus Christ to come down to confirm that Wilt jumped 6'6"?

[shawngoat23]

I'm not understanding the issue here to be honest. Track athletes are notorious for being two sport athletes. I was all-state in three sports, half the cornerbacks/wide receivers in the NFL were sprinters running low 10s/high 9s, tight ends were basketball stars, etc.

CellarDoor, very few cornerbacks/receivers in the NFL are capable of running low 10s. No one has ever run a high 9. Certainly, half the CBs/WRs are not in that range.

I met Maurice Drew (now Maurice Jones-Drew) once at a track-and-field meet in high school. He ran a 10.93, and I'd bet he's one of the faster guys in the NFL.

Here are some times I found on another site for some of the game's older speed demons:

Johnny “Lam” Jones 10.14 1977
Willie Gault 10.10 1982
Deion Sanders 10.26 1988
Raghib "Rocket" Ismail 10.34 1991

Bob Hayes ran 10.06 in 1964, but he was, of course, an elite sprinter. In fact, the world record holder and Olympic gold medalist at the 100m.

I believe the active player with the fastest recorded time is Michael Bennett, who ran 10.18 s in the 100m in college.

[shawngoat23]

Hey, SilverBullet, I found some more proof of Wilt's high jump after spending way too much time looking and sleuthing around.

It comes from the Kansas University Track and Field site. The web page is down now, but a copy from 2004 is still available on Archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/200408110137 ... hamps.html

It has him posting 6'6 3/4" in 1957. If that's not convincing enough for you, then I give up.

[Silver Bullet]

Hey, SilverBullet, I found some more proof of Wilt's high jump after spending way too much time looking and sleuthing around.

It comes from the Kansas University Track and Field site. The web page is down now, but a copy from 2004 is still available on Archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/200408110137 ... hamps.html

It has him posting 6'6 3/4" in 1957. If that's not convincing enough for you, then I give up.

Thank You. This is what I was looking for all along, and it is perfectly acceptable. turns out Wilt did jump 6`6.

As far as your previous post is concerned, any article that claims the guy got attacked by a mountain lion, picked the lion up by his tail and flung him into the bushes, is not credible.

[Warspite]

Hey, SilverBullet, I found some more proof of Wilt's high jump after spending way too much time looking and sleuthing around.

It comes from the Kansas University Track and Field site. The web page is down now, but a copy from 2004 is still available on Archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/200408110137 ... hamps.html

It has him posting 6'6 3/4" in 1957. If that's not convincing enough for you, then I give up.

Thank You. This is what I was looking for all along, and it is perfectly acceptable. turns out Wilt did jump 6`6.

As far as your previous post is concerned, any article that claims the guy got attacked by a mountain lion, picked the lion up by his tail and flung him into the bushes, is not credible.

Im also a little curious and have a question for you.

Theres no video, documented, pictorial, or even eyewittness acount of Hitler ordering the Holocost. Where do you fall on the argument? Is Hitler a scapegoat, misundestood or is he a monster?

I watched programs on Holocost deniers and 911 truthers and they realy reminded me of Silver Bullets methods. I dont deniy the scensarity of anyone but at some point there is a tipping point over reasonable doubt.

[Silver Bullet]

Hey, SilverBullet, I found some more proof of Wilt's high jump after spending way too much time looking and sleuthing around.

It comes from the Kansas University Track and Field site. The web page is down now, but a copy from 2004 is still available on Archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/200408110137 ... hamps.html

It has him posting 6'6 3/4" in 1957. If that's not convincing enough for you, then I give up.

Thank You. This is what I was looking for all along, and it is perfectly acceptable. turns out Wilt did jump 6`6.

As far as your previous post is concerned, any article that claims the guy got attacked by a mountain lion, picked the lion up by his tail and flung him into the bushes, is not credible.

Im also a little curious and have a question for you.

Theres no video, documented, pictorial, or even eyewittness acount of Hitler ordering the Holocost. Where do you fall on the argument? Is Hitler a scapegoat, misundestood or is he a monster?

I watched programs on Holocost deniers and 911 truthers and they realy reminded me of Silver Bullets methods. I dont deniy the scensarity of anyone but at some point there is a tipping point over reasonable doubt.

Good Question. Two Part Answer:

1. The correct analogy would be if you gave me a biography of Hitler written by Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Heimler. Would you expect me to believe everything in it, or would you expect me to be skeptical ?

2. Suppose you did have video footage (btw, there is enough video footage of Hitler) and it showed a shy and timid Hitler who'd start crying at the sight of a black girl slipping on the road and was pushed around by all his subordinates. Would you believe half the stories that are in circulation now ?
Point being, there is video footage of Wilt. I have never seen him jump as high as Shaq, let alone make change of the top of the backboard, or have the strength to toss a 500 plus pound lion into the jungle just nonchalantly.

I mean you guys don't agree that nearly everything about him is exagerrated, by himself, his agents, his franchise owners, and a league desperate for publicity (at the time).

[Warspite]

Again you didnt answer my question. Its also abundantly clear to me that you believe than any journalist that writes anything positive about Wilt is a fan and no longer a journalist. Under that premise anything NBC or TNT ever said about MJ is a lie. I cant think of any sports caster that didnt like MJ and never said a good think about him. Am I to believe that Chuck Hern was a liar because he said some glowing things about many Laker players?

[Silver Bullet]

Again you didnt answer my question. Its also abundantly clear to me that you believe than any journalist that writes anything positive about Wilt is a fan and no longer a journalist. Under that premise anything NBC or TNT ever said about MJ is a lie. I cant think of any sports caster that didnt like MJ and never said a good think about him. Am I to believe that Chuck Hern was a liar because he said some glowing things about many Laker players?

umm... I thought it was a rhetorical question. Ofcourse I think Hitler is a monster.

And yes, journalists do exagerrate. Specially in the case of MJ. If you got all your information off of books and articles only, you'd think he never missed a clutch shot in his life. When the reality is, he missed several. I was just watching Game 6 of Clev - Chi. MJ gets 4 free throws in the last 30 seconds, any two in a row would have sealed the game and the series. He missed one both times, turned the ball over and made several other mental errors.

So yes, ofcourse Chuck Hearn exagerrated when it came to superstars. almost everybody does. I mean, you don't seriously believe he could've fought Ali, do you ?

[The Main Event]

Use your own eyes and tell me that a young Wilt does not look athletic.

[Silver Bullet]

Use your own eyes and tell me that a young Wilt does not look athletic.

Ofcourse he is. I've never claimed he isn't very athletic. I'm just saying he couldn't touch the top of backboards. I think he'd have no problem playing D-Rob, Ewing or Mourning.

[The Main Event]

Use your own eyes and tell me that a young Wilt does not look athletic.

Ofcourse he is. I've never claimed he isn't very athletic. I'm just saying he couldn't touch the top of backboards. I think he'd have no problem playing D-Rob, Ewing or Mourning.

Fair enough. I also think that it's unlikely that he could touch the top of the backboard; although it isn't out of the question. I believe that Dwight has similar athleticism to D-Rob and several players including CP3 have gone on record saying that they've witnessed Dwight touch the top of the backboard. All i'm trying to say is that it's silly to dismiss the claims that Wilt grabbed change off the top of the backboard just because it isn't documented. To him, it could very well have been a spur of the moment type thing, as a bet, for example. It probably wasn't much of a big deal to him at the time and was for fun.

[Warspite]

Again you didnt answer my question. Its also abundantly clear to me that you believe than any journalist that writes anything positive about Wilt is a fan and no longer a journalist. Under that premise anything NBC or TNT ever said about MJ is a lie. I cant think of any sports caster that didnt like MJ and never said a good think about him. Am I to believe that Chuck Hern was a liar because he said some glowing things about many Laker players?

umm... I thought it was a rhetorical question. Ofcourse I think Hitler is a monster.

And yes, journalists do exagerrate. Specially in the case of MJ. If you got all your information off of books and articles only, you'd think he never missed a clutch shot in his life. When the reality is, he missed several. I was just watching Game 6 of Clev - Chi. MJ gets 4 free throws in the last 30 seconds, any two in a row would have sealed the game and the series. He missed one both times, turned the ball over and made several other mental errors.

So yes, ofcourse Chuck Hearn exagerrated when it came to superstars. almost everybody does. I mean, you don't seriously believe he could've fought Ali, do you ?

Why do you believe that about Hitler when theres less evidence to support that Hitler was a bad person than Wilt was a super star athlete who achieved some super human feats??? Theres less evidence of Hitlers dislike of jews than there is of Wilts abilty to touch the top of the backboard. More people saw Wilt play with the Globetrotters than Hitler speak in stadiums. Theres more eyewitness accounts to support Wilts feats than Hitlers hate.

Chuck Hern had bias but that doesnt make him an idiot. You have bias but that doesnt make you stupid. You seem to discount anyone with any bias and believe the only true person that sees the world corrrectly with none is you. Something you and Adolf have in common.

you and I watched 2000-2003 Shaq and you were so amazed that you concluded that that was the peak of human development but I saw him as a less polished Moses Malone. You never saw Moses Malone play so again you are more impressed than I. Doesnt mean your wrong its just that you dont have as wide a lens as me.

Do I think Wilt could fight Ali? Sure he could. So could Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris and several guys in my neighborhood. I had a highchool friend make the US Olympic team in boxing and you know what he was great boxer but I watched him lose a fight at a highschool party. Could nobody ever fight him?? many people wanted to fight him so I guess they could fight him.
Could he beat Ali??? I doubt it but he has several advantages that give him a chance. Could Lenex Lewis fight Ali? or Tyson??

[jaypo]

Serious question, guys. 2 years ago in the dunk contest, didn't Howard stick a sticker of his face on the back board? Do you guys remember how far away from the top of the back board it was? And that was with him taking a free jump as high as he could. Put that in perspective in the argument about Wilt. Does anyone know the difference in their respective reaches? For Howard to be able to make change on the top of the backboard, how much higher would he have had to jump, and would Wilt's reach be higher? I would find it hard to believe that Wilt had a higher vert. than Howard.

Secondly, does anyone here seriously believe that Wilt slept with 20,000 women? If you find that hard to believe, then why would you hang on to his other superhuman feats like gospel?

[The Main Event]

Dwight stuck it at 12'6" i believe. As i mentioned before, he has gone on record saying that he has touched the top of the backboard, which CP3 verified during one of the Team USA camps.



Keep in mind that he was focused on dunking the ball. Had his only focus been touching the top of the backboard i don't think that it's out of the realm of possibility to imagine him doing so.

James White was recently asked by a reporter as to whether or not he could do it. The reporter organized a time for James to make the attempt while being filmed. www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh6Dho5J0_I He comes with a half an inch of touching the 13 foot mark.

[Silver Bullet]

Dwight stuck it at 12'6" i believe. As i mentioned before, he has gone on record saying that he has touched the top of the backboard, which CP3 verified during one of the Team USA camps.



Keep in mind that he was focused on dunking the ball. Had his only focus been touching the top of the backboard i don't think that it's out of the realm of possibility to imagine him doing so.

James White was recently asked by a reporter as to whether or not he could do it. The reporter organized a time for James to make the attempt while being filmed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh6Dho5J0_I He comes with a half an inch of touching the 13 foot mark.

ummm wait.

1. CP3 has never seen Dwight touch the top of a backboard, neither has he ever claimed to. Neither has any other person ever claimed to have seen another NBA player touch the top of a backboard.

2. James White is uber athletic, like Vince Carter on steroids. And it took him 50 tries and two meets to get within half an inch. But to make change off the backboard, you'd have to jump atleast 13`6", since you'd need your wrist nearly level with the top of the board.

[The Main Event]

Dwight stuck it at 12'6" i believe. As i mentioned before, he has gone on record saying that he has touched the top of the backboard, which CP3 verified during one of the Team USA camps.



Keep in mind that he was focused on dunking the ball. Had his only focus been touching the top of the backboard i don't think that it's out of the realm of possibility to imagine him doing so.

James White was recently asked by a reporter as to whether or not he could do it. The reporter organized a time for James to make the attempt while being filmed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh6Dho5J0_I He comes with a half an inch of touching the 13 foot mark.

ummm wait.

1. CP3 has never seen Dwight touch the top of a backboard, neither has he ever claimed to. Neither has any other person ever claimed to have seen another NBA player touch the top of a backboard.

2. James White is uber athletic, like Vince Carter on steroids. And it took him 50 tries and two meets to get within half an inch. But to make change off the backboard, you'd have to jump atleast 13`6", since you'd need your wrist nearly level with the top of the board.

I stand corrected, my memory fails me. Here is the article where i got the information from. Very interesting read.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-2 ... -Myth.html

So off to LeBron I went. When asked, he shook his head no as well.

"Everyone says I can, but I can't do it. I've tried. I can get up for sure but that's a long way. Dwight's the only man in the world who could do something like that, you gotta talk to him."

"Dwight" was Dwight Howard, the first pick in the 2004 draft, who stands 6-11 and is an absolute physical freak. Do a search online and you'll see extensive video of Dwight's leaping exploits. His team, the Orlando Magic, has documented some of his more amazing stunts, most famously him literally kissing the rim. In the 2007 Slam Dunk contest, he dunked a ball while slapping a sticker shockingly high on the backboard.

Hornets point guard Chris Paul told me, "I think Dwight can. I asked him before practice today and he said he can but I've never seen him do it."

I asked Chris if he could get Dwight to try.

"I don't know. Depends on how he feels. I want to see it, too."

Have you ever seen anyone do it?

"Uh uh."

So that's total crap when people say Earl Manigault could do it, since he was like 6 feet tall?

"I believe it, though. You ain't never seen the movie Rebound?"

You mean the one with Don Cheadle?

"Yeah."

You know that's not a documentary, right?

When Chris and I approached Dwight and asked him, he beamed ear to ear.

"I can. I've never heard of anyone else that can do it but I can get up there. I did it in high school when I was seventeen for the first time. Now, I can't grab stuff off of it but I can get up there."

[jaypo]

Earl "THE GOAT" Manigault. Haven't heard that name in a while! So now, you have a super athletic freak like D12 admitting he can barely touch the top. Admitting that he couldn't make change. and his vert. is ridiculous for a big man. And in that article, they were obviously talking about making change. And in the article, they said that it was not believable that anyone could do it, although there was a legend that "The Goat" did it. So it was a legend that someone could do it, but these people don't believe the legend because the feat is too far fetched. Why should we believe that Wilt did it? Because people believed a man that said he slept with 20K women? And wrestled with mountain lions?

I'll tell you a quick story- Billy the Kid was a famous outlaw. Maybe you've heard of him. He allegedly was killed by Pat Garret in Pete Maxwell's bedroom in July of 1881. In his 21 yr life, his legend grew, and it was said that he killed 21 men- 1 for each year of his life. Many people went on record saying this, including very respectable businessmen and lawmen. However, it is proven that he killed, or had a hand in killing 4 people- Frank "Windy" Cahill, a blacksmith, "Texas Red" Joe Grant, Deputy Bell, and Deputy Bob Ollinger. These are proven. The other 17 do not exist except in storybooks or stories from various people. So what do you believe? That he killed 21 people that because it came from the romantic stories about an infamous legend? Or the 4 that there is actually proof of? All kinds of people tell all kinds of stories. Some just to get attention. Some to profit from it. Some just to pump up their cred. I, personally am not going to believe that he made change off the backboard just because he or one of his worshippers said he did so. Just like I'm not going to believe that he threw a mountain lion by its tail, or slept with 20 thousand women. None of it seems likely. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means that I won't believe it until I see proof. If you choose to believe he did so, that's cool as well. That doesn't change the fact that Shaq would still destroy him in the post!

[NO-KG-AI]

Come on, Dwight can't even get close to touching the top of the backboard, that sticker said "12'6" because that's what Dwight claimed was the highest he could get, he didn't even get it on that particular attempt, from the looks of things, Jameer just held up the tape measure for dramatic effect, and it wasn't even a proper measurement, but it looked more like 12'3 or 12'4.

Either way, even if he could get 12'6, that's a FAR cry from the top of the backboard.

Do the math yourself, Dwight has a 9'3.5 standing reach, the top of the backboard is 13 feet.

Dwight measured a 35.5 inch vertical at the NBA draft camp... at his peak leap, he be hitting 12'3(wow, just about what I said).

Now lets say Dwight added 3 of combined vertical and height over the years of growing and weight training, that still puts him ONLY at 12'6, and that's with a 38 inch vertical or so.

Dwight Howard would need a 44+ vertical to touch the top of the backboard. Someone like James White?

White doesn't have recorded measurements, but Josh Smith has an 8'10.5 standing reach, and LeBron has 8'10.25, and White is shorter than both.

Lets give him a generous 8'10 standing reach, and again, I think this is generous. White would need a 50 inch vertical just to TOUCH the top of the backboard, much less swipe change off of it, and that's with a generous standing reach measurement.

Wilt Chamberlain is taller than Dwight by a noticeable amount, and he has extremely long arms, even when his chest was narrow, his standing reach was still long because he isn't super long necked like Bosh or something, and his arms are LONG.

If Wilt had a 9'5-9'6 standing reach, he would still need about a 42 inch vertical just to touch the top of the backboard.

Personally, I always thought his vertical was closer to something like 38 inches than 42. The only people that claim 42 inch+ verticals are guys like Vince Carter, guys under 200 pounds, Patrick Ewing Jr, and a bunch of guys that didn't go to the camp because they knew they wouldn't reach that mark (LeBron, Gerald Green).

[writerman]

People go on about Carter's vertical, and true, it's impressive--but the most absolutely insane vertical I ever saw was David Thompson's--which IMO was better than Carter's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPVKQIFxVk&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9DDwdchuGs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whIPLxAX ... L&index=17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVd2TvNa ... L&index=57