Rick Barry or Isiah Thomas

JordansBulls · Post #1 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:05 pm

Who was considered better?

LebronsCavs · Post #2 » by **LebronsCavs** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:05 am

Rick imo

Minge · Post #3 » by **Minge** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:18 am

Both players are "Top 5" at their respective positions. If you account for the ABA, then this is obviously Rick Barry. This is the same guy that lit up Chamberlain's 67 Sixers for 40+ ppg. He won at the ABA level, without a dominant pivot. He won at the NBA level, without a dominant pivot. The next best player on that 75 team was Jamaal Wilkes. As much as I respect Thomas, Barry was on a completely different level. I think he was arguably a better player than Erving.

1967, NBA Finals: -BoxScore
1969, ABA Finals: -BoxScore
1972, ABA Finals: -BoxScore
1975, NBA Finals: -BoxScore

Tirion · Post #4 » by **Tirion** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:25 am

Barry won a chip without an All-Star bigman (never mind a HOF one). The only other swingman to do that? Jordan. Look at that team:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/1975.html
Barry lead the way with 30.6 ppg. The next best scorer? Jamaal Wilkes (who was a friggin' rookie that year I believe) with 14.2. And it's not like he was a slouch on defense, he lead the league in steals that year with 2.9 per game. He also ranked sixth in the NBA in assists with 6.2 per game, the only forward to make the top 10.

JordansBulls · Post #5 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:13 pm

Tirion wrote:Barry won a chip without an All-Star bigman (never mind a HOF one). The only other swingman to do that? Jordan. Look at that team:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/1975.html
Barry lead the way with 30.6 ppg. The next best scorer? Jamaal Wilkes (who was a friggin' rookie that year I believe) with 14.2. And it's not like he was a slouch on defense, he lead the league in steals that year with 2.9 per game. He also ranked sixth in the NBA in assists with 6.2 per game, the only forward to make the top 10.

He gets underrated big time.

Laimbeer · Post #6 » by **Laimbeer** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:20 pm

Thomas, no doubt.

Barry was a great player, but he was about Barry. He continually complained about contract situations, teams he didn't want to go to, etc.

Thomas was the consummate winner. He was the only top 50 player to win multiple championships without another.

Knowing thier talents and emotional make-up before hand. I'd rather begin building a team around a young Isiah, no question.

JordansBulls · Post #7 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:22 pm

Laimbeer wrote:Thomas, no doubt.

Barry was a great player, but he was about Barry. He continually complained about contract situations, teams he didn't want to go to, etc.

Thomas was the consummate winner. He was the only top 50 player to win multiple championships without another.

Knowing thier talents and emotional make-up before hand. I'd rather begin building a team around a young Isiah, no question.

Isiah won 2 titles, however Dumars won Finals MVP for their first title. In 1990 the year Isiah won finals MVP he finished 4th in Total Win Shares on his team behind Laimbeer, Dumars and Rodman. In fact he finished 4th in win shares in 1989 as well. While Zeke won titles his team was probably the most balanced team ever.

Post #8 » by **penbeast0** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm

And Isiah could be pretty much of a jerk as well; though few are in Barry's league in terms of self involved verbal egotism.

Blademaster · Post #9 » by **Blademaster** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:08 am

Don't think Isiah is innocent in the jackass department. Didn't Isiah Thomas basically force Adrian Dantley off the team?

Laimbeer · Post #10 » by **Laimbeer** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:36 am

Blademaster wrote:Don't think Isiah is innocent in the jackass department. Didn't Isiah Thomas basically force Adrian Dantley off the team?

He embraced the Aguirre trade for Dantley because Aguirre was the superior player at the time, and they were close. The issue with Aquirre was his emotional outbursts, etc., but he was brought under control by Isiah and the Piston culture.

The result was two titles.

JordansBulls · Post #11 » by **JordansBulls** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:23 am

How serious was Isiah trying to get recruited by the Bulls in 1981

Blademaster · Post #12 » by **Blademaster** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:42 am

Laimbeer wrote:
Blademaster wrote:Don't think Isiah is innocent in the jackass department. Didn't Isiah Thomas basically force Adrian Dantley off the team?

He embraced the Aguirre trade for Dantley because Aguirre was the superior player at the time, and they were close. The issue with Aquirre was his emotional outbursts, etc., but he was brought under control by Isiah and the Piston culture.

The result was two titles.

“I’ll never forgive you for what you did to me” is what Dantley had to say about it. I know Pistons fans are willing to just shovel all the blame onto Dantley because they won 2 titles right after, but I don't buy that Isiah had nothing to do with Dantley getting traded.

Tirion · Post #13 » by **Tirion** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:38 am

Laimbeer wrote:Thomas, no doubt.

Barry was a great player, but he was about Barry. He continually complained about contract situations, teams he didn't want to go to, etc.

Thomas was the consummate winner. He was the only top 50 player to win multiple championships without another.

Knowing thier talents and emotional make-up before hand. I'd rather begin building a team around a young Isiah, no question.

Barry was a grade A ****, but he never was as bad as Thomas. Rick would use/backstab anyone in order to win, but Isiah backstabbed people just for the hell of it. Put it this way, Barry was McNulty, Thomas was Valchek/Burrell.

Warspite · Post #14 » by **Warspite** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:06 am

Blademaster wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:
Blademaster wrote:Don't think Isiah is innocent in the jackass department. Didn't Isiah Thomas basically force Adrian Dantley off the team?

He embraced the Aguirre trade for Dantley because Aguirre was the superior player at the time, and they were close. The issue with Aquirre was his emotional outbursts, etc., but he was brought under control by Isiah and the Piston culture.

The result was two titles.

“I’ll never forgive you for what you did to me” is what Dantley had to say about it. I know Pistons fans are willing to just shovel all the blame onto Dantley because they won 2 titles right after, but I don't buy that Isiah had nothing to do with Dantley getting traded.

Not this Pistons fan. Adrian Dantley was fav player and I cried when he was traded. However Chuck Daly said in an interview that after the Dantley trade the team avged 8ppg more and that he didnt think they could win the title because the team had slowed down too much. Dantley had lost a step and he was always a def liability. I loved Dantley as a player and a person and hes still my fav Piston player but the fact is the team played better after the trade and Dantley never played that well again. I dont blame Dantley one bit. Its not his fault his body began to break down. Isiah was the ast GM and to be honest you dont have to like him but you cant argue with trades that he helped and his draft picks he and McCloskey made. (Mahorn, Rodman, Salley, Aguirre, Dantley)

Again for record which is it???

Isiah Thomas is one of the greatest players of alltime for winning titles with very little support.

The Detroit Pistons are one of the greatest teams of all time for winning a title with so much talent that they only needed a 2nd all NBA PG who finsihed 10th in MVP voteing for there best player.

You Pistons haters/MJ Fans need to get your stories straight.

You cant have it both ways that Isiah is both not a superstar player that won titles with great help and that played on a team that wasnt great.

Isiah has a winning playoff record vs Magic, Bird and MJ. Hes the only top 50 all time that won a ring and never played with another top 50 player. Hes the GOAT player under 6'6" in height. I respect Barry and Im a fan of his to the point I would want him on my team and I would hire him to coach my team. Superstar SFs are dime a dozen but Superstar PGs with multiple rings are Magic, Cousy and Isiah.

Tirion · Post #15 » by **Tirion** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:26 am

Warspite wrote:I respect Barry and Im a fan of his to the point I would want him on my team and I would hire him to coach my team. Superstar SFs are dime a dozen but Superstar PGs with multiple rings are Magic, Cousy and Isiah.

You really need to understand what Barry did in 1975 though. I'd argue that at his peak he was better that anybody. Imagine if Iverson led Sixers to the Finals in 2001 and then proceeded to sweep Shaq-Kobe LAL. He would have been crowned GOAT at the spot, that's no way over it. And Barry did just that. He absolutely dismantled the Bullets, who had two HOF players (Unseld and Hayes), a legit All-Star at the time (Chenier) and a group of nice role players (Riordan and Porter). Barry had Wilkes, who was a friggin' sophomore and wasn't even that good as his second scorer, a nice defensive center in Clifford Ray and a couple of career journeymen (Beard, Johnson).

JordansBulls · Post #16 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:31 pm

Laimbeer · Post #17 » by **Laimbeer** » Tue Sep 1, 2009 12:44 am

Blademaster wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:
Blademaster wrote:Don't think Isiah is innocent in the jackass department. Didn't Isiah Thomas basically force Adrian Dantley off the team?

He embraced the Aguirre trade for Dantley because Aguirre was the superior player at the time, and they were close. The issue with Aquirre was his emotional outbursts, etc., but he was brought under control by Isiah and the Piston culture.

The result was two titles.

“I’ll never forgive you for what you did to me” is what Dantley had to say about it. I know Pistons fans are willing to just shovel all the blame onto Dantley because they won 2 titles right after, but I don't buy that Isiah had nothing to do with Dantley getting traded.

He may have had plenty to do with it, and I have no problem with that. The Pistons may well have never won it all with Dantley. It improved the team, period.

Dantley was disappointed, but it's about winning.

Laimbeer · Post #18 » by **Laimbeer** » Tue Sep 1, 2009 1:00 am

Tirion wrote:
Warspite wrote:I respect Barry and Im a fan of his to the point I would want him on my team and I would hire him to coach my team. Superstar SFs are dime a dozen but Superstar PGs with multiple rings are Magic, Cousy and Isiah.

You really need to understand what Barry did in 1975 though. I'd argue that at his peak he was better that anybody. Imagine if Iverson led Sixers to the Finals in 2001 and then proceeded to sweep Shaq-Kobe LAL. He would have been crowned GOAT at the spot, that's no way over it. And Barry did just that. He absolutely dismantled the Bullets, who had two HOF players (Unseld and Hayes), a legit All-Star at the time (Chenier) and a group of nice role players (Riordan and Porter). Barry had Wilkes, who was a friggin' sophomore and wasn't even that good as his second scorer, a nice defensive center in Clifford Ray and a couple of career journeymen (Beard, Johnson).

Phil Smith - two time all-star
Jamaal Wilkes - three time all star, rookie of the year
Butch Beard - one time all star

Tirion · Post #19 » by **Tirion** » Tue Sep 1, 2009 9:57 am

Laimbeer wrote:
Tirion wrote:
You really need to understand what Barry did in 1975 though. I'd argue that at his peak he was better that anybody. Imagine if Iverson led Sixers to the Finals in 2001 and then proceeded to sweep Shaq-Kobe LAL. He would have been crowned GOAT at the spot, that's no way over it. And Barry did just that. He absolutely dismantled the Bullets, who had two HOF players (Unseld and Hayes), a legit All-Star at the time (Chenier) and a group of nice role players (Riordan and Porter). Barry had Wilkes, who was a friggin' sophomore and wasn't even that good as his second scorer, a nice defensive center in Clifford Ray and a couple of career journeymen (Beard, Johnson).

Phil Smith - two time all-star he was a rookie at the time and averaged a whoopin' 7.7 ppg on 14 mpg. An All-Star no doubt.
Jamaal Wilkes - three time all star, rookie of the year he too was a rookie at the time, that was the year he won ROY over Bill Walton, riding Barry's coattails.
Butch Beard - one time all star who was past his prime and got traded immediately after they won the chip along with the 1st round pick for Dwight Davis, who in turn averaged 8.6 points in 340 career regular season games. You couldn't make this stuff up.

So, Barry had two rookies getting rotational minutes, one of them was actually his second scorer and he still took that team all the way. Tell me about Thomas teammates.

Tirion · Post #20 » by **Tirion** » Tue Sep 1, 2009 10:05 am

Another fun-fact about that Warriors team:

So little was felt of the team's chances in the playoffs, even by their home fans, that the Coliseum Arena scheduled other events during the dates of the NBA playoffs. As a result, the Warriors did not play their championship series playoff games in Oakland; rather, they played at the Cow Palace in Daly City.