RealGM

I was looking through some old newspapers, and sometimes they would list blocked shots and steals. They weren't officially tabulated by the NBA, but sometimes they would be listed.

January 17, 1968: West had 12 steals.
November 9, 1968: West had 29 points and nine steals as the Lakers beat the Celtics 116-106 for their ninth straight victory.
December 6, 1968: West had eight steals in a 99-94 win over Atlanta.
April 7, 1970: In Game 6 of the 1970 Western Division semifinals against the Phoenix Suns, West scored a game-high 35 points “and was credited with an unofficial 12 steals defensively” in a 104-93 Laker win which tied the series at 3-3 after being down 3-1.
November 11, 1970: West had 26 points, 11 assists and nine steals in a 149-124 win over Seattle.
December 13, 1971: West had 23 points, 15 assists and seven steals in a 129-114 win over Portland for their 22nd consecutive win.
January 18, 1972: West had six steals and hit the game-winner over Walt Frazier in the 1972 All-Star Game to win MVP.
November 10, 1972: West had 27 points, 10 assists and 10 steals in only three quarters in a 118-88 win over Cleveland.
March 25, 1973: In a 109-93 win over Seattle, West had six steals in the third quarter and blocked a shot by Spencer Haywood as the Lakers went from a 47-43 halftime lead to a 79-63 lead after three. Seattle coach Bucky Buckwaiter said, “when Jerry West dies, they ought to cut off his hands and bronze them.”

We know that once steals were officially kept as a statistic, West had an official game of 10 steals, which set an NBA-record at the time. Yet it seems like that might have been fairly routine for West.

Bill Sharman once said, “Although they didn’t keep track of the stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA." Some of the totals listed seems to give credence to his statement.

Nice find. Have you seen anything about blocks?

This is all I've found:

"Years after a game in which he hit 16 of 17 shots from the field, sank all 12 free throw attempts, and notched 12 rebounds, 12 assists, and 10 blocked shots, West told the National Sports Daily, "Defensively, from a team standpoint, I didn't feel I played very well. Very rarely was I satisfied with how I played."

shawngoat23 wrote:Nice find. Have you seen anything about blocks?

This is all I've found:

"Years after a game in which he hit 16 of 17 shots from the field, sank all 12 free throw attempts, and notched 12 rebounds, 12 assists, and 10 blocked shots, West told the National Sports Daily, "Defensively, from a team standpoint, I didn't feel I played very well. Very rarely was I satisfied with how I played."

Not yet. There was one where West made a clutch block during a game-winning defensive stop. December 1, 1970:

Basketball teams are always using offensive sprees to win games, but how many times do you hear of a defensive flurry?

That’s what the Los Angeles Lakers used Tuesday night to beat the Baltimore Bullets 97-93 in a National Basketball Association game.

With the Lakers leading 95-93, first Wilt Chamberlain and then Jerry West came up with consecutive clutch defensive gems to save the game. Chamberlain blocked a shot by Earl Monroe and then West followed by blocking a shot by Kevin Loughery in the final seconds. Gail Goodrich then added two free throws to seal the victory.

That's weird how the newspapers would report on steals yet the nba felt at the time there was no need to keep track of them.

Lets for a second assume that these numbers are inaccurate or off... how far off could they really be?

I wish we had all the numbers

West had 3.6 steal rate and 1.1 blk rate in '74, when he played his last season and only 31 games. I'd say 4 steals per game and 1.5 blocks seem reasonable in his prime. it does need a mention that he wasn't exceptional man defender though.

West had those long viper arms and played D with heart. I think he was the #2 stealer of the pre-steal era, only eclipsed by prime Walt Frazier. Frazier once had 15 steals vs the Hawks.

Frazier wasn't as spectacular as West in terms of steals. we have data of still-prime Frazier and his steal rates are more like top of the league rather than all-time.

Jerry averaged 2.6 SPG at 35 years old. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he probably averaged 4+ SPG in his prime.

There must have been a lot of bad ball handlers back in the day. What were the TO rates back then....

Most steals don't come "on the ball" but off it, even today. Great steal totals are based primarily off quickness, anticipation, and a willingness to gamble by leaving your man. Admittedly on-the-ball steals were easier when they enforced the carry rule so that the ball was more exposed during the dribbling process.

Point forward wrote:West had those long viper arms and played D with heart. I think he was the #2 stealer of the pre-steal era, only eclipsed by prime Walt Frazier. Frazier once had 15 steals vs the Hawks.

I'd like to hear you respond to bastillon's point here. Numbers from the first year they kept steals (which was West's last year and when Frazier was still putting up prime numbers):

Jerry West
SPG: 2.4
Age: 35
MPG: 31

Walt Frazier
SPG: 2.0
Age: 28
MPG: 42

Seems to indicate that West producing steals at a significantly greater rate than Frazier.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Point forward wrote:West had those long viper arms and played D with heart. I think he was the #2 stealer of the pre-steal era, only eclipsed by prime Walt Frazier. Frazier once had 15 steals vs the Hawks.

I'd like to hear you respond to bastillon's point here. Numbers from the first year they kept steals (which was West's last year and when Frazier was still putting up prime numbers):

Jerry West
SPG: 2.4
Age: 35
MPG: 31

Walt Frazier
SPG: 2.0
Age: 28
MPG: 42

Seems to indicate that West producing steals at a significantly greater rate than Frazier.

wow that argument is destroyed

west just gets better and better more I hear about him

no full game footage from his prime though I imagine

^^^There is. There are playoff games of his from 63 and 64, as well as games from the Wilt era on youtube. There are other games on the internet as well- just gotta look in the right places. haha


I can buy West being a 4 spg player in his prime during his day. Most of the numbers were inflated compared to now (not saying the play was or that one era was better than the other). West was a great help defender with crazy length. In his best games back then, I can see 10 steals in a game.

Today? I feel he'd still be one of the best help defenders at guard in the league. Forget the numbers- he'd do very well in the passing lanes and on weakside shot-blocking. His numbers would look like Wade. Maybe a bit less shot-blocking, a bit more steals.

penbeast0 wrote:Most steals don't come "on the ball" but off it, even today. Great steal totals are based primarily off quickness, anticipation, and a willingness to gamble by leaving your man. Admittedly on-the-ball steals were easier when they enforced the carry rule so that the ball was more exposed during the dribbling process.

Here's something I don't see ppl here EVER mention. It's clear that modern rules allow the offensive players more freedom regarding ball-handling and I hear alot of geezers here state that modern players are fortunate to play under these rules and their stats are deceiving. But with an advantage to one end, have to affect the other end. Modern players also a much harder time to defend players bc of the rules geared for offense.

I have no doubt West could have avg'ed 4 SPG in his peak but surely not today, not even the pace-adjusted equivalent.

Some posters decry the skills displayed in old footage, but it's important to remember thhat those skills were constrained within rule interpretation far more back in the day than they are today (pop quiz, how many steps can a player take in the modern game before being called for a travel? Answer: depends on the status of the player)

You can argue that it makes the game more enjoyable to watch and that players have significantly more scope for creative and spectacular play due to the reasonable looseness on the offensive end (conversely, you can argue that defensively, players have LESS room to work with today). I think it's an underrated factor in cross-era comparisons...

how many minutes where they playing?

There are other games on the internet as well- just gotta look in the right places. haha

Where?

kooldude wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Most steals don't come "on the ball" but off it, even today. Great steal totals are based primarily off quickness, anticipation, and a willingness to gamble by leaving your man. Admittedly on-the-ball steals were easier when they enforced the carry rule so that the ball was more exposed during the dribbling process.

Here's something I don't see ppl here EVER mention. It's clear that modern rules allow the offensive players more freedom regarding ball-handling and I hear alot of geezers here state that modern players are fortunate to play under these rules and their stats are deceiving. But with an advantage to one end, have to affect the other end. Modern players also a much harder time to defend players bc of the rules geared for offense.

I have no doubt West could have avg'ed 4 SPG in his peak but surely not today, not even the pace-adjusted equivalent.

You know what would be an interesting exercise -- estimate from video how long a ball stays out of a player's hand on the dribble, now and in West's era, when the dribbler and defender are face to face. That's the real window of vulnerability off the dribble. See if it's changed a lot.

Another factor -- number and style of passes per possession. E.g., full-court passes are pretty vulnerable to being stolen, I would think in any era. Ditto passes in traffic under the hoop.

I was surprised to see this thread on the front page, since I knew it had been some time ago since I'd started it.