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conleyorbust
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Post#21 » by conleyorbust » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:11 pm

LL Cool Scott wrote:Addressing Sekou's article - it's very well stated and he's right about most everything. We either have to go completely small-ball and run or we have to mix up our roster in the next couple of years. Because you can't win big playing half-court basketball where your tallest player is 6'10. Eventually, either Josh Smith or Marvin Williams has to go somewhere else so Horford can move to his natural position. Our main problem is still that we are loaded at 3 positions and still have big holes at point and center.


Well I still contend that you can win that way, Sheed' was the tallest guy on the chip' Pistons at 6'11 but he didn't play like a 6'11 guy at all in terms of being a poor rebounder and turning into a jump-shooter by that point. Its not like we get destroyed inside on a nightly basis and Al hasn't really gotten to the point where he is "great" at defending perimeter players or post players. That being said, we can't be a good half court team when one of our players is basically a wasted spot on both sides of the court. Thats why we look awsome when AJ plays well, whether he's pushing the pace or just knocking down his 3s in the half court. We can play in the half court if someone is spacing things out for us because we have guys that can get to the rim which serves the same effect as having a good post player.
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Post#22 » by killbuckner » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:23 pm

D21- I think the problem is the perception of what the 11th pick in the draft is likely to get you. People here act like if you don't draft a quality starter at that spot then the pick was a total disaster. Its a lottery pick so people just think it is worth more. The truth is that picks in that range tend to be total crapshoots. I have always said drafting for need in that spot is likely to be a diaster. I think it helps to look at other picks in the 10-14 range to see what kind of players usually come out of these slots.

Saer Sene
JJ Redick
Hilton Armstrong
Thabo Sefolsha
Ronnie Brewer

Andrew Bynum
Fran Vasquez
Yaroslav Korolev
Sean May
Rashad McCants

Luke Jackson
Andris Biedrins
Robert Swift
Sebastian Telfair
Kris Humphries

Jarvis Hayes
Mickael Pietrus
Nick Collison
Marcus Banks
Luke Ridnour

I am not at all saying you can't find really solid (even great) players out of these slots- but drafting in this range is far from a sure thing.
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Post#23 » by will » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:28 pm

HoopsGuru25 wrote:Duhon would not help our half court offense at all. He is a liability on offense.

Andre Miller is my number 1 choice. He is available for 75 cents on the dollar and he's a huge upgrade over any one of our points(despite people saying he was no better than AJ 4 weeks ago).


He's a guy who can shoot the trey. He's a good point guard who can penetrate the defense and give other guys easy looks.
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Post#24 » by LL Cool Scott » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:33 pm

Conley - That Pistons team was one of those exceptions to the rule, don't you think? They did it, and we apparently have a coach and GM who are trying to replicate everything that franchise did, but I don't think lightning is going to strike twice. I hope it does, but my instincts tell me its unlikely we can duplicate their success.
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Post#25 » by Rip2137 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:25 pm

Rasheed is also a freakish defensive player and that 6'11 is a total load of crap. He is at least 7 feet tall with the wingspan of a player even taller.

The Pistons won because of one important feature that all championships have. the ability to never have to double team ANYONE.

They will from time to time, but Chauncy Billips, Rasheed, Tayshawn and at the time Ben Wallace all should have been all defensive team players. Rip Hamilton is an extremely underrated defender. In most games there was never a need to double anywhere. If they got caught on a switch, they were okay.

The Hawks are getting close to that but they don't have a real rim protector. They are getting it at the 4 position and it seems the other Hawks don't understand how to rotate to his man.

Also Josh has to go after shots to affect them, while Rasheed can stand there with his hands up and alter and even sometimes block shots, thus not taking himself out of the play.

And above all, Rasheed Wallace, if he wasn't such a headcase, would be one of the top 5-10 greatest players to ever play. he shows flashes of dominating the boards, dominating the paint and a consistant mid range game, but because he has no focus, he he doesn't do any of them all the time. But the fact of the matter is, there are at least 5-10 minutes a game where you have to deal with probably the most complete offensive package of a big man in the history of the game, and that is why the Pistons win.

I don't think you can replecate that. At all.
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Post#26 » by JoshB914 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:00 pm

The Pistons are the only team of recent times that have won a title without a true superstar.
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Post#27 » by Rip2137 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

They have three guys that wold be a true superstar on another team though.

Rip Hamilton would be a 25-26 PPG scorer easily on another team. Tayshawn Prince would be around 22-24 points a game, plus his defense would be more noticable and his versatility would be noticed. Rasheed....see above. I think he would be a monster if he was the complete focal point of a offense.

I don't see Billups as a superstar, but a great player no doubt.
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Post#28 » by HoopsGuru25 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:48 am

Rip I think you are confusing all-star with super-star. A super-star is an ELITE player and can be considered an all-time great. Billups is probably the best player on Detroit but Rasheed is the only one on the Pistons who has/had anything close to super-star talent. I don't think he WANTS to be the focal point of the offense. I don't agree with Hamilton and Prince being super-stars. Hamilton would probably score more points but his scoring efficiency would go down tremendously. His lack of a handle would be exposed on a bad team. Could you honestly imagine Hamilton on a team like the Hawks with no proven 2nd scorer and no point guard? Tayshaun has never even made an all-star team....he's not close to a super-star.
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Post#29 » by Rip2137 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:28 am

It depends on your definition of superstar. I think that Ray Allen and Reggie Miller were superstars. I believe that Rip Hamilton is the exact same caliber of player as those two. His current role doesn't allow him to show his entire game. I think when he was leading the Wizards in scoring coming off the bench (so that Jordan could get more shots) showed how all around his game is. Right now, he plays his role and plays it perfectly.

As for Prince, offensively he could be an amazing player right now if he weren't in Detroit. He is 6'7 - 6'8, can handle the ball like a guard, has a strong post game where he uses his freakish wingspan to score, can create his own shot where he hits his consistant mid range shot, has three point range, defensively can guard pretty much any position on the court and is a good rebounder. He has all the tools to be a superstar. he is in a position where he is with alot of great players and doesn't have to be that. He also carried the team offensively in the playoffs as a rookie after getting no playing time the entire year. That is the type of things that superstars do.

Just like Dennis johnson, James Worthy, Kevin Mchale are all considered great players, but weren't called superstars in their day, all could have easily been superstars, yet they were on a team where to win, they had to play their roles.
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Post#30 » by HoopsGuru25 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:59 am

You have a different definition of super-star. I think it's a stretch to call Prince an all-star yet alone a super-star. I wouldn't even call perennial all-star like Paul Pierce or Vince Carter super-star players let alone Tayshaun Prince. How could you possibly build a title contender with Tayshaun Prince or Rip Hamilton as your franchise player? There are only like 5-10 players that are super-stars or have super-star potential.

The Pistons did not have a Duncan,Shaq,Kobe,Jordan,Hakeem,Bird,etc. on their roster when they won the title. They won the title with 4-5 borderline all-stars. . All the other teams that have won titles in the last 25 years have had at least 1(many times two)players who are among the top 50 players of all time. Most title teams have a super-star like Duncan and surround them with border-line all-star players like Parker and Ginobli. Here's a good story I saw on the subject.

http://www.nbadraft.net/mcchesney001.asp
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Post#31 » by D21 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:56 am

IMO, DET has "almost star" players, who have the intelligence of preferring staying together in an contender team than getting some more $ in another, and I applaud them for that. The only one not thinking like that was Ben Wallace.
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Post#32 » by Rip2137 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:40 pm

HoopsGuru25 wrote:You have a different definition of super-star. I think it's a stretch to call Prince an all-star yet alone a super-star. I wouldn't even call perennial all-star like Paul Pierce or Vince Carter super-star players let alone Tayshaun Prince. How could you possibly build a title contender with Tayshaun Prince or Rip Hamilton as your franchise player? There are only like 5-10 players that are super-stars or have super-star potential.

The Pistons did not have a Duncan,Shaq,Kobe,Jordan,Hakeem,Bird,etc. on their roster when they won the title. They won the title with 4-5 borderline all-stars. . All the other teams that have won titles in the last 25 years have had at least 1(many times two)players who are among the top 50 players of all time. Most title teams have a super-star like Duncan and surround them with border-line all-star players like Parker and Ginobli. Here's a good story I saw on the subject.

http://www.nbadraft.net/mcchesney001.asp


I think you are missing what I am saying here. I am not saying they ARE superstars. I am saying, in another environment they have the tools to be one, only right now they spread the ball around(and should).

Guys like Parker and Ginobli...do you have any idea what their numbers would look like somewhere else. Ginobli is probably a 27-28 point per game scorer with the ability to pass the ball well. You could build a team around that guy.

How everyone calls Chris Paul a superstar(and he is), Tony Parker would be doing the same thing if a team was built around him.

So sure, San Antonio technically only has one superstar, but they have two guys who could be superstars in another situation and take turns being the superstar on this team on any given night.

That cleveland team is the only team I have seen with only one superstar and that also being the only guy with superstar potential and have any success.

Every other team that has championship chances has at least 2 guys that either are or easily could be legit superstars in this league.

What made that Pistons team special is that they had 3 guys(4 if you want to count how special Ben Wallace was at the time...but I don't count him) that could easily be legit superstars in the league. No ONE player had to step out, although one easily could have.

Edit: I just remembered the first rockets championship team...That was pretty much Hakeem and no one else.
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Post#33 » by conleyorbust » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:17 pm

LL Cool Scott wrote:Conley - That Pistons team was one of those exceptions to the rule, don't you think? They did it, and we apparently have a coach and GM who are trying to replicate everything that franchise did, but I don't think lightning is going to strike twice. I hope it does, but my instincts tell me its unlikely we can duplicate their success.


They were the exception to the rule without a doubt, but the rule is less about the height in your starting lineup and more about (as has been written a few times between your post and mine) having one player who is head and shoulders above almost everyone you are going to play.

As of right now there are 2 players who are in their "prime" who have shown they can lead a team to a title - Wade and Duncan. There's one who has come pretty close Dirk (although that was a really balanced team) and there's one who looks like he might be on the path right now - KG. Throw in a few guys who have the talent to win one in hypotheticals - Bron, Howard, Kobe, Nash(?). We don't have any of those types of players, we won't get one unless we luck out in the lottery so we have to bank on a team built around Smith and Johnson.

Rip, it wasn't Sheed' that was intimidating players around the rim, it was Ben Wallace. Smith isn't the player on D that Wallace was but he can block shots like Big Ben. Horford has to be able to play post D and rebound, Horford has the build of a post specialist but he still has work to do in terms of fundamentals and getting used to the speed of the game. Regardless though, my thought is that you play with the most talented players you can if they can fill a role. As of right now we know that Josh Smith is our PF and Joe Johnson is our SG and no one else has REALLY earned a spot long term but if Horford show us this season that he can hold it down at C and fill the roles he needs to fill than I don't see his height as being a problem as there have been many great centers around his size (I think Al is the same height as Moses and a lot thicker... nowhere near as aggressive but tontoz talks about how he could attack the rim facing up if he wanted to...). So like I said, if Al decided to take players off the dribble he could be a great weapon at center, as of right now he doesn't try and post up smaller players that often and he doesn't try and drive by larger players that often so we don't know what his offensive game should be like.

You can win in half-court ball if you can get the ball to the basket in a variety of ways (like the Pistons) regardless of size. Sheed could play post but he wasn't an automatic back to the basket, must-double type even in Portland.

I'm not saying we have the talent right now to win a championship but I'm saying that there is no rule saying that a team whose tallest starter is 6'10 can't win a title cuz the 83' sixers did it with Moses (I understand that Moses was a superstar, that's almost the point... height isn't the issue, ability is).
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Post#34 » by Rip2137 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:33 pm

Ben Wallace is, and always has been a bad on the ball defender but one of the better off the ball/team defenders in the a LONG LONG time. Just incredible.

What Rasheed made for that team, he was one of the best on the ball defenders in the NBA which allowed Ben to roam and that Pistons D became ridiculous after that.

I don't know why people keep saying that Horford should just take people off the dribble. He doesn't have a quick first step, which is how you get around people in the NBA off the dribble in the front court.

He is still a rookie people. He will be fine. I think he has done more than enough to earn his future at his spot.
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Post#35 » by conleyorbust » Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:07 pm

Rip2137 wrote:Ben Wallace is, and always has been a bad on the ball defender but one of the better off the ball/team defenders in the a LONG LONG time. Just incredible.

What Rasheed made for that team, he was one of the best on the ball defenders in the NBA which allowed Ben to roam and that Pistons D became ridiculous after that.

I don't know why people keep saying that Horford should just take people off the dribble. He doesn't have a quick first step, which is how you get around people in the NBA off the dribble in the front court.

He is still a rookie people. He will be fine. I think he has done more than enough to earn his future at his spot.


That was my point, Horford has the strength and fundamentals to be a good post defender but for now he still makes some rookie errors. Smith is a great shotblocker, the type to defend the rim.

He has a great first step for a center, a decent enough shot so you can't stay too far off of him, and he has good handles in the open court. He should be pulling guys like Bogut or Big Z out and then blowing past them but he never does that.
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Post#36 » by Rip2137 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:58 pm

I disagree. He has one of the slowest first steps I have seen in a while out of a guy that is so athletic. It is amazing to me. Some of it is technique, of course, and that will get better, but his first step is SLOW and that is the flaw in his face up game.

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