ATL / SEA Trade

Harry10 · Post #1 » by **Harry10** » Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:04 am

i'm really getting tired for Mr. Joe Johnson, and i'm ready for the Marvin era.

Atlanta Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: +6.9 ppg, +14.2 rpg, and +1.7 apg.
Incoming Players
Johan Petro
7-0 C from France (Foreign)
4.5 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 12.9 minutes
Delonte West
6-4 SG from St. Joseph's
6.8 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.1 apg in 20.4 minutes
Damien Wilkins
6-6 SG / SF from Georgia
9.2 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 2.1 apg in 24.8 minutes
Kurt Thomas
6-9 PF / C from Texas Christian
7.5 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 1.4 apg in 25.5 minutes

Outgoing Players
Joe Johnson
6-7 SG from Arkansas
21.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 40.9 minutes

JoshB914 · Post #2 » by **JoshB914** » Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:15 am

I wouldn't be opposed to dealing Joe. But we can get a lot more from him than that.

Harry10 · Post #3 » by **Harry10** » Sat Feb 9, 2008 3:27 am

^ i'm up for anything.... taking all offers.

evildallas · Post #4 » by **evildallas** » Sat Feb 9, 2008 4:17 am

Strange mix of short term help (Kurt Thomas), long term help (Petro), and questionable help (Wilkins and West since he is expiring). I think if you try to move Joe you should be able to scare up a better prospect than you get out of that package.

Personally, I don't give up on Joe until I get a different coach.

geeman · Post #5 » by **geeman** » Sat Feb 9, 2008 4:18 am

you think miami would do John Johnson and Marvin Williams for D Wade

Harry10 · Post #6 » by **Harry10** » Sat Feb 9, 2008 5:10 am

geeman wrote:you think miami would do John Johnson and Marvin Williams for D Wade

Hawks are all over that one.... i just don't see Miami giving up their face of their franchise

reazun · Post #7 » by **reazun** » Sat Feb 9, 2008 7:52 pm

geeman wrote:you think miami would do John Johnson and Marvin Williams for D Wade

John Johnson? I think Id do that trade too. I dont know if Mami would though.

NWO4Life · Post #8 » by **NWO4Life** » Sat Feb 9, 2008 10:48 pm

joe and chill for wade?

positivetension · Post #9 » by **positivetension** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:34 am

NWO4Life wrote:joe and chill for wade?

Right.. because the difference between Wade and Johnson is an MLE player.

tbhawksfan · Post #10 » by **tbhawksfan** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:21 pm

Chil/Zaza/Lue/Lo

for

Watson/Szczerbiak/Petro/2008 second

Post #11 » by **HMFFL** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:05 am

Harry all the pressure is on Joe, face it, not Josh Smith who's stats are improving just like the majority of Joe's teammates. Your not giving Joe the credit he deserves for all that he's having to put up with.

If you think Josh Smith can take on the load of this team your absolutely wrong and he's going to struggle if Joe's not replaced with someone who demands the double teams.

Joe might not be the vocal leader that I'm wanting, but he sure does hold the key to this franchise, and he's basically the only one who I trust knocking down a big shot.

We lack shooters and yet your wanting to move our best one for a bunch of role players.

conleyorbust · Post #12 » by **conleyorbust** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:13 pm

HMFFL wrote:Harry all the pressure is on Joe, face it, not Josh Smith who's stats are improving just like the majority of Joe's teammates. Your not giving Joe the credit he deserves for all that he's having to put up with.

If you think Josh Smith can take on the load of this team your absolutely wrong and he's going to struggle if Joe's not replaced with someone who demands the double teams.

Joe might not be the vocal leader that I'm wanting, but he sure does hold the key to this franchise, and he's basically the only one who I trust knocking down a big shot.

We lack shooters and yet your wanting to move our best one for a bunch of role players.

HMFFL, I don't actually disagree with the meat of your message (that we need Joe or a player like him) but you are factually wrong when you say that Smith can't handle the pressure as well as Joe. As I like to point out, Joe was injured for the last month and a half or so last season and we didn't even switch strategies. We just put the ball in Josh's hands and let him work against the doubles, he did the isos and kickouts and the results were basically the same. We lost more than we won but we won a few. Joshes efficiency actually IMPROVED when he became the focal point of the offense because he wasn't being put in a situation where he was getting the ball later in the shotclock and had to decide whether he had enough time to attack or just shoot.

I think we saw this during the Philly and Laker games. Smith had the ball more and the offense seemed to flow more smoothly.

Still, I think Joe is extremely important for this team because of his shooting (when its on). I have to think he is injured because he has never had the type of terrible games he has had this season. I don't think Woody helps Joe out either with his fallback of making Joe iso every time the game is on the line.

I don't really want to deal Joe now because we know what he is capable of doing, but one deal I was intrigued by was the Calderon/Parker for Joe trade. We wouldn't need Joe handling doubles because the ball would be in the hands of a great pg and we'd have an outside shooter in Parker to help space the floor.

Anyway, in the end I would rather wait and hope Joe comes back around and add other peices instead of trade Joe in a strange desperation move. Only trade a guy like that or Smith if you are getting a real player back. Certainly not for non-starters like this Sonics package.

Rod700 · Post #13 » by **Rod700** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:06 pm

It's not just a matter of whether or not Josh Smith can handle the go-to scoring responsibility that JJ does (which I don't think he can), it's a similar situation to what Chicago faced years ago. When Jordan left, Pippen played great, but was criticized as being inadequate since they did not reach the finals. Althogh Pippen wasn't as good as Jordan (who is?), the comparison was unfair because while Jordan had an absoutely fantastic side kick in Pippen, Pippen didn't have a second super star's support when Jordan left. What I'm saying is, if we were to trade JJ, it's not just a matter of whether Josh Smith can step up as the leading scorer, it's a question of whether Marvin can step up as the second scorer, and someone can step up as a reliable third option.

conleyorbust · Post #14 » by **conleyorbust** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:28 pm

Rod700 wrote:It's not just a matter of whether or not Josh Smith can handle the go-to scoring responsibility that JJ does (which I don't think he can), it's a similar situation to what Chicago faced years ago. When Jordan left, Pippen played great, but was criticized as being inadequate since they did not reach the finals. Althogh Pippen wasn't as good as Jordan (who is?), the comparison was unfair because while Jordan had an absoutely fantastic side kick in Pippen, Pippen didn't have a second super star's support when Jordan left. What I'm saying is, if we were to trade JJ, it's not just a matter of whether Josh Smith can step up as the leading scorer, it's a question of whether Marvin can step up as the second scorer, and someone can step up as a reliable third option.

That wasn't my point. Like I said, I don't think we should trade JJ. Especially not for a boatload of roleplayers. If we trade him we need to get another star or a very useful up and comer (thats why I mentioned Calderon).

The Smith as a go-to guy statement was just pointing out that we have a lot of chatter to the effect of, "Josh Smith is decent but he could never handle the constant doubles JJ faces which is why JJ is our best player even though his season has been a lot worse on paper". Which has been proven to be incorrect as much as it can be... in peoples minds it might not make sense because Smith doesn't have a good jumper and his handles are still shaky but

IT IS A FACT

that the 19 games that Smith played that Joe was out for at the end of the season (a quarter of a season), Smith upped his average to over 20 points a game while improving his FG% and drastically improving his TS%. During this time the team wasn't really statistically worse DESPITE missing its best player. This isn't to say that I think Joe doesn't make the team better, I think its a huge coaching flaw that this type of trend can happen.

I'm only pointing that out to say that it is innaccurate to make it it seem like Smith would suddenly not be able to score in a go-to role because he was a more efficient scorer in a go-to role even though he is a better player now with more help around him.

I think we should trade for a point guard to complement the team. Not blow it up.

Rod700 · Post #15 » by **Rod700** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:16 pm

I understand, and I like the statistics you back your argument with. I'm just saying that if we did trade JJ, and even if Josh Smith proves he can handle the load, we still need to make sure he has the 2nd and 3rd scoring options he needs for the team to succeed. We would need to make sure any trade for JJ addresses that. On that point, I actually think we are agreeing.

evildallas · Post #16 » by **evildallas** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:24 pm

A JJ trade would be bad for Josh Smith. It isn't that Josh can't step up. He can and is the most likely person on the roster to do so. The problem is how he steps up on the offensive end. I don't know if it is just Josh trying to do too much or the limits of Mike Woodson's offensive system, but late last year a lot of games it was Josh trying to do his best Joe impersonation. It isn't in Josh or the team's best interest for him to try to create an advantage one-on-one off the dribble from the 3 point line.

JoshB914 · Post #17 » by **JoshB914** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:29 pm

If we trade JJ we would have to be getting PPG in return. If he continues this kind of play I think we should at least float him around the league this summer. If you ask me, this will be Smoove's team by the time JJ's deal runs out anyway.

Rip2137 · Post #18 » by **Rip2137** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:30 pm

I would only trade Joe Johnson for a guy like Michael Redd or Richard Hamilton.

But I probably wouldn't do those trades either, because, like it or not, Joe Johnson is the face of this franchise because no one looks at this franchise.

If we trade Joe Johnson, the outside world would see it as the Hawks trading their only good player who also happened to be the only free agent that would come here.

To me, I would know we are trading a guy that is very good, but I don't think he handles not being the only one with talent very well. I personally think that everyone else getting better has made Joe worse. I don't recall him him trying to dribble away from doubles last year (and killing the offense) and forcing shots.

But just as every story I read was about Joe Johnson leading the hawks to a playoff birth(and I think you would be hard pressed to say Joe is leading this team anywhere this year. He is playing like a role player or a rookie scorer...one of the two), you can't trade him because he is the guy that brought this team what little legitimacy it has.

conleyorbust · Post #19 » by **conleyorbust** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:34 pm

evildallas wrote:A JJ trade would be bad for Josh Smith. It isn't that Josh can't step up. He can and is the most likely person on the roster to do so. The problem is how he steps up on the offensive end. I don't know if it is just Josh trying to do too much or the limits of Mike Woodson's offensive system, but late last year a lot of games it was Josh trying to do his best Joe impersonation. It isn't in Josh or the team's best interest for him to try to create an advantage one-on-one off the dribble from the 3 point line.

Right, I'm not saying he should. Here's the thing though, the team was just as (in)effective when Josh was being the iso player as when Joe was. I definitely think its a flaw in coaching that Smith could be as, or almost as, effective as Joe in that capacity.

Again, I'm not advocating a Joe Johnson trade. Especially for a load of garbage, all I'm saying is that the "Joe Johnson is the only player on our team that can score with defensive pressure" line of thinking is purely fiction.

Thats another reason why I think Mike Woodson has been a fairly unimaginative coach. Why run sets through Joe so much and then complain about him not having a shooter to pass it to. Run it through Josh more often and let Joe shoot.