While Woodson

[Rip2137]

Ok - I'm no big fan of Woodson. BUT - head coaching is by far the most overrated aspect of an NBA team's success. Nothing matters more than the talent on the floor. NOTHING. Who put the (lack of) talent together for this franchise?

If you disagree - look at the careers of every major successful head coach. Look at how they fared when they did and did not have a good roster to coach. Pat Riley, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Lenny Wilkens, George Karl, Greg Popovich, Jerry Sloan, Don Nelson, etc... If you want a clear example this year - look at Doc Rivers.

To claim this franchise lacks talent is laughable. It really is. Josh Smith, Josh Childress, Marvin Williams, Al Horford, Joe Johnson and Acie Law...you telling me that if Pat Riley had these guys that they would have this record?

The guy makes HORRIBLE HORRIBLE decisions every single game. Not even debatable ones. Just god aweful coaching decisions. Good play does not reward you playing time on this team. The offense, while it might not perform as well all the time, looks better when their best offensive player does not touch the ball. you know why? Because when he touches the ball it is a freakin ISO on the wing with everyone else on the other side of the court that NEVER works. Yet he keeps running it over and over and over and over again. you don't need to be a hall of fame coach to see that play X doesn't work so how about running play Y.

You can't have the worse coach in the leauge and keep absolving him of blame. Scott Skiles took the Bulls to the playoffs without a real point guard. The Cavs made the finals without a real point guard. The Wizards made the playoffs without a real point guard. The Nuggets are probably going to make the playoffs with Anthony Carter at the point.

There are plenty of coaches in the East with less talent than us yet they have just as many wins. Why is that? Josh Smith is Allstar caliber, Josh Childless is a top 5 6th man in the league. Al Horford is one of the more promising bigs in the league. Joe Johnson is underperforming but is still an allstar guard. I just don't see how you can possibly argue this team doesn't have the talent.

Anyone ever think that maybe we don't get much out of point guards becuase our "offense" consist of give the ball up and get out the way for every point that has been here?

We are still running the same offensive sets that we have been running for 3 years. If you look at your win totals, why are you still saying "run it again!!!"

He is a BAD coach. You say coaching doesn't matter, name a bad coach that has ever won a championship or gotten his team deep in the playoffs for that matter....who wasn't named Mike Brown(okay, I gave you one).

It is foolish to expect to win with bad coachings. Say there is nothing more important than the talent on the court all you want. If its being coached like crap, it is going to lose.

[evildallas]

in fact the one guy that is supposed to be a problem (Smith) is by far and away the fieriest competitor.

Off topic but Salim has some of the worst body language I've ever seen but isn't good enough to be a cancer. He almost got kicked off the team for having such a poor attitude at Arizona. I don't remember the last time I saw him clap on the bench after a made basket. I remember when Chil made that huge dunk on VC and everybody on the bench was going crazy and Salim was just sitting there as if nothing happened. I seriously think he could care less if we are winning if he's not playing.

I've got to say I would never have drafted Salim nor would I have stuck with him this long. He had the bad rep of malcontent at Arizona and for his shooting skills (always was compared with Redick) he is only 6'0. At that size, you have to have some PG skills which the book on him at draft time was that he didn't. He reaffirmed that with his play here. He was drafted with the delusion that he could be made into a PG like Ivey before him rather than valuing actual PG prospects. It's stuff like Salim that really annoys me with respect to Billy Knight.

Rant Beginning.

When you are watching the Hawks are you are dissatisfied with the way the bench performs, it should be a direct indictment of Billy Knight and to a lesser extent the coaching staff (not Woodson, the whole staff). Billy Knight has not utilized his 2nd round picks, undrafted free agents, or the developmental leagues to enhance this roster. The only real find he's made is Mario West who went to college here at Tech, so I'd say that was just getting lucky. The other players on the bench showing promise are 2 lottery picks and the D-league all-star game MVP (didn't have to turn over a lot of stones to find him). If he had recognized Jeremy Richardson skill i think he would have been signed to a contract last year and maybe his defense coached up a bit (although I don't think our coaching staff can coach up anyone). As it where he was the most obvious free agent to sign when we needed to fill out a roster rather than any great GM insight. I really can't comment on his International scouting since those players are never brought over.

Other teams get valuable contributions from 2nd rounders (Paul Millsap, Monta Ellis, Louis Williams, Craig Smith, Carl Landry, Glen Davis, Andray Blatche, Chris Duhon) or from other leagues (Anthony Parker, Kelenna Azubuike, Jamario Moon, Ime Udoka). We get filler than never develops into anything worthwhile. I try to hold out hope that Solomon will develop, but I doubt that will occur with this coaching staff. He might blossom elsewhere.

It's one sin to miss on some high picks for whatever reason and those will haunt us forever and I don't feel like rehashing them now. BK's lack of performance in these other areas seems to indicate a lack of thoroughness, or vision, or willingness to empower and that compounds his other missteps and leaves us a lot less sound of an organization than we should be talent-wise.

Rant Over.

[LL Cool Scott]

Rip - We've had 5 high lottery picks and how many of them have come even close to making an all-star team?

Here's some bad coaches that have taken their teams deep in the playoffs (Mike Brown, Flip Saunders, Dunleavy, Doc Rivers this year, KC Jones in the 80's).

Here's some great coaches that have had their teams perform poorly league when the talent wasn't there (Greg Popovich, George Karl, Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, Lenny Wilkens).

Again, your record reflects the talent you have on the floor. Just ask Charles Barkley!

[killbuckner]

Anyone ever think that maybe we don't get much out of point guards becuase our "offense" consist of give the ball up and get out the way for every point that has been here?

Its statements like THIS which make me think that you are completely clueless. Woodson hasn't made the Hawks PG's look like crap- they just aren't very good. Seriously both PG's that the Hawks just traded away are likely to get waived before the end of the season. They were adequate backup PG's being asked to start- the fact that it even crosses your mind that they might not be performing well becase of the COACH shows just how ridiculous you have become on the subject of woodson.

Woodson was given a team with no PG, no postgame, just one outside shooter. He put together an above average defensive team and tried to make Joe Johnson the focal point of the offense since he is the only player on the team who can consistently penetrate, draw a double team, and find the open man. I simply don't think that any coach could have taken the roster before and made them into a quality offensive team. Woodson is not an innovator. And maybe innovation is what you need for a flawed roster. But I simply put far more blame on the flawed roster than I do on the coach.

[HoopsGuru25]

Other teams get valuable contributions from 2nd rounders (Paul Millsap, Monta Ellis, Louis Williams, Craig Smith, Carl Landry, Glen Davis, Andray Blatche, Chris Duhon) or from other leagues (Anthony Parker, Kelenna Azubuike, Jamario Moon, Ime Udoka). We get filler than never develops into anything worthwhile. I try to hold out hope that Solomon will develop, but I doubt that will occur with this coaching staff. He might blossom elsewhere.

If I was drafting in the 2nd round I would just draft undersized PF'S who can rebound(the easiest skill to translate over to the NBA) or players who dropped in the draft and came out early like Chris Taft,Daniel,Gibson,or Darius Washington. Why did we draft Salim? A 23 year old 6'1 headcase who couldn't play point guard or defense at the time. I know it's hindsight(and only a 2nd rounder) but wouldn't have just made more sense to draft Louis Williams given that he was 4 years younger,more athletic,from the area,and had actual pg skills? You may be lucky and get a Boozer or Redd every decade but most of the time you are going to end up with Lonny Baxter or Salim Stoudamire.

Its statements like THIS which make me think that you are completely clueless. Woodson hasn't made the Hawks PG's look like crap- they just aren't very good.

Rip thinks it's impossible to have two talented guards on the same roster because they need the ball to be effective(lol)so he sees the reasoning behind the Shelden over Roy/Foye pick despite those two being much better prospects on everybody's draft board. He has still yet to answer whether a Wade/JJ backcourt would be effective after saying that Roy would be a bust on the Hawks because of Joe Johnson.

[Rip2137]

How many times does it take for me to say the Sheldon pick was a bad one for you to take it in? I have not said it was a good pick. Ever. I said it was a bad pick for a different reason than you and some how that turns to me justifying the pick.

Roy dominates the ball on offense. that is why he is effective as a playmaker and a scorer. They Space the floor well, he runs the show and they move the ball well with their shooters. That is their game.

Now HOW does that translate here? Woody was going to give a rookie guard the ball a majority of the time and regulate JJ to being a spot up shooter like he was in Phoenix? You know full well that wasn't going to happen.

Look at Roy's summer league and preseason numbers. While they were better than Laws, Law had great summer league and preaseason numbers. Where was the team being handed to him? It wasn't going to happen.

In your Wade scenario, you are comparing a established guard and saying that "If that would work, Woody would give the same amount of confidence to a rookie tweener with injury problems and streaky jumpshooter". That is not one in the same.

And KB call me clueless all you want. Please watch a game and tell me what a point guard changes in this offense. Please, share with me, what are you seeing in this offense that says that having a point guard will change it.

Now if you want to argue that the horrible offensive sets(well...set) that we run is a result of not having a high caliber of point guard, then fine, but once again, other teams manage to have multiple plays with average or below average guys at the point. Yet its not Woodson fault that we do here?

Denver has no point and no post up game yet somehow their offense doesn't consist of Iso on the wing with everyone else moving out the way(and the teams worse 3 point shooter at the top of the key to take the kick out for some reason)

Stats don't show stupid coach and thats why some of the stat watchers want to argue that Woody is being scape goated so much.

LL, you gave that list of "bad" coaches (Flip Saunders? Doc Rivers is a bad coach? Dunleavy?). Honestly tell me one of them that wouldn't do a better job than Mike Woodson?

Once again, I have been watching basketball a LONG time. I have watched my favorite team play like crap before (the Frank Johnson era in Phoenix) and I have watched some bad years here. But I have NEVER seen a worse in game coach than Mike Woodson at the professional ranks. EVER. I am not saying this team is perfectly built or even well built for that matter, but we do have talent, there is no denying that. How many wins do you really expect with arguably the worse NBA coach in the last 20 years at least at the helm? Yes, Terry Stots was a MUCH better coach than him. Yes, Lon Kruger, with all his f-ups, ran the team better than him.

Yes we have had 5 lottery picks. Horford is a rookie and very well could be a all-star, Childress hasn't but could become a 6th man of the year. Acie Law is also a rookie, Sheldon Williams..shouldn't have been a lottery pick so whatever, and Marvin Williams very well could be allstar potential in a few years. But you can't say that Marvin isn't talent.

I am sorry but Childress, Marvin, Horford and Law is not a bad lottery haul.

People want to say I am not blaming the players, but yes, if JJ plays this year like last I think you can chaulk up another 10 wins to this season. The biggest change in wins and losses starts with the players, no doubt. But we ALSO have a HORRIBLE coach. I don't exactly see why people pretend like that isn't a problem.

[HoopsGuru25]

Rip I already broke down your argument I'm not going to go through it again.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... 611cfc6972

[conleyorbust]

Woodson was given a team with no PG, no postgame, just one outside shooter. He put together an above average defensive team and tried to make Joe Johnson the focal point of the offense since he is the only player on the team who can consistently penetrate, draw a double team, and find the open man. I simply don't think that any coach could have taken the roster before and made them into a quality offensive team. Woodson is not an innovator. And maybe innovation is what you need for a flawed roster. But I simply put far more blame on the flawed roster than I do on the coach.

This is fair enough. Its not that I disagree with you on the subject of Woody being in a rough situation. Honestly, if he were in Dallas, Detroit, or San Antonio I think people would consider him at least average because he wouldn't have to make tough bench decisions or in-game strategic adjustments... he also probably wouldn't alienate half his roster.

I just disagree with the sentiment that his grade should be an incomplete. He, and admittedly the rest of the coaching staff, have done a bad job with what they were given. Unfortunately what they were given wasn't really a cohesive or experienced squad. The fact that he isn't an innovator is one that we've gone over, I just think that the lack of player development from a lot of the guys, the inability to control outbursts from players, and seemingly of coaching growth in terms of game flow and sub-patterns are enough to say that he hasn't made the best of a bad situation.

Does all that mean that he will never be a good coach? No. Does all that mean the current state of the Hawks is more his fault than anyone else? No - and even if it were that would fall on BK too because he has kept the guy around so long.

What it does mean, in my opinion, is that Woody is a pretty bad fit for this particular roster. He is inexperienced himself and often doesn't understand nuances of game flow. If he were on a team with more vets, or at least more talented vets than this one has had, that would be less of an issue because the team and the staff could help eachother learn. With the roster over the past few years though its been the blind leading the blind.

He can still prove the doubters wrong. He can do something he has never been particularly good at doing and motivate these guys to kick ass over the rest of the season. The addition of Bibby should be the missing peice he needed to have some success in the half court offense. We'll see.

[conleyorbust]

Just an annendum to my already ridiculously long post. Woody probably isn't isn't the worst coach in the league. I don't think that Woody is any worse, and is probably better, than Larry K, Sam Vincent, or Jim Boylan. I just think that he has shown so little growth as a coach over his time here. In some ways he's gotten worse.

Saying that I think there are worse coaches is like saying that Isiah and McHale are worse GMs than BK. They both suck and should be out. The reason we seem to harp more on Woody than BK in the game threads it because we are watching what Woody does. If given the chance I'd dump'em both in a second and I've already gone through 3 of my preferred candidates for the GM job. killbuckner hasn't said whether he'd accept though.

[Rip2137]

Rip I already broke down your argument I'm not going to go through it again.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... 611cfc6972

And you are still arguing the wrong thing. I am not saying Roy wouldn't ahve the talent to make it work or with a coach that isn't horrible it wouldn't work wonderfully.

I am saying with THIS coaching staff, Brandon Roy would not have been able to do the things that allow him to be special and a allstar player, and that is dominate the ball and make decisions. How can you possibly argue that Woodson was going to say "Yeah, we like you Joe and you are our superstar, but we are going to let this Rookie run the show with you being in the role you were in while you were in Phoenix and became a whiney b***h about."

And like I said, Acie and Roy both had great preseasons and summer leagues when considering their position. Acie also played well before he was injured, then he got back and could barely see the court.

Its easy to look at numbers but when you take into account the high turnovers and defensive lapses that he would have quite a bit in the start and the games where he really did take bad shots and force it, Where was this magical new Woody that lets rookies play through mistakes going to come from.

I would see if I was arguing that Joe and Roy don't have the talent to do it. A 6-6 guy that can penetrate, make the right decisions, finish at the basket paired with a guy that is a great spot up shooter...that is a great combination. If you have a coach that would let it be that way.

But Roy WOULD be nothing more than a spot up shooter in this offense. And that isn't his strength. If you are arguing that Woody would have given the team to Roy his rookie year, then fine. I just disagree. But I don't see how you can argue that he would have been just as effective in our offensive scheme. I just don't see how you can possibly say that.

[Rip2137]

[quote="conleyorbust"]Just an annendum to my already ridiculously long post. Woody probably isn't isn't the worst coach in the league. I don't think that Woody is any worse, and is probably better, than Larry K, Sam Vincent, or Jim Boylan. I just think that he has shown so little growth as a coach over his time here. In some ways he's gotten worse.
[quote]

Oddly though, he has been CLEARLY outcoached by all those guys when we have played them except arguably Boylan. And I think part of that was his team just not competing and not so much the X-O's.

[killbuckner]

I just think its ridiculous to assume that Woodson would waste a talent like Roy when he hasn't shown that he ignores talent like that. I think that Woodson would have been absolutely thrilled to have another guy to take the playmaking out of Johnson's hands. Acie has probably been the worst PG in the league this season that gets significant minutes- he isn't being wasted. Salim is just horrid- he isn't being wasted. Childress is a pretty unique player and I think that Woodson has done a pretty good job of utilizing his strengths. Seriously I think the case could be made far more easily that Woodson should be taking away some of Josh Smith's green light on offense more than you can make the case he has been stifled.

[conleyorbust]

Seriously I think the case could be made far more easily that Woodson should be taking away some of Josh Smith's green light on offense more than you can make the case he has been stifled.

This is one that I agree with and I don't. We know where Smith excels and what situations those are. He is good when he gets the ball first on offense or he gets it near the hoop. We know he is very bad when he is set on the perimeter and gets the ball with 7 seconds (est.) or less on the shot clock. Thats when he ends up taking one dribble and launching that "jumper" which invariably misses leading to easy Childress points. The problem is, in my opinion, that Smith should never be standing out there. The fact that he does seems to be coached into him because he always often goes there in the halfcourt sets and always does when Chil is in the game. You don't see the point guards telling him to get inside either. That is where he is supposed to go, 3 pt. line spacing the left.

[smabie]

I just think its ridiculous to assume that Woodson would waste a talent like Roy when he hasn't shown that he ignores talent like that.

I think its even more ridiculous to assume that Woodson would NOT waste a talent like Paul, Roy, Williams, etc, when he hasn't shown the ability to develop ANYONE, Smith and Chill included. Until halfway through last year, a lot of ya'll were including Smith and Chill among BK's failures. Heck, a few of you still do.

Woodson sucks and needs to be removed before any more damage can be caused by his ineptitude. The classic case of addition by subtraction.

And I normally agree that you shouldn't fire a coach unless you have a better option available. However, I believe that anyone else is a better option, at this point.

[HoopsGuru25]

And I normally agree that you shouldn't fire a coach unless you have a better option available. However, I believe that anyone else is a better option, at this point.

Just about every message board on this site in the last 2 years has wanted the coach fired w/o a viable replacement. The funny thing is that they are suprised when the new coach is even worse. I'm almost positive that all of Woodson's assistants are worse than him or else they would have been candidates for another head coaching job. Firing Woody mid-season w/o having a replacement in mind would only help the Suns draft pick imo. Unless there are serious chemistry issues(which doesn't appear to be the case)....we should just play out this year and choose to part ways in the off-season. The only person that needs to be fired immediately is BK.

[smabie]

Just about every message board on this site in the last 2 years has wanted the coach fired w/o a viable replacement. The funny thing is that they are suprised when the new coach is even worse. I'm almost positive that all of Woodson's assistants are worse than him or else they would have been candidates for another head coaching job. Firing Woody mid-season w/o having a replacement in mind would only help the Suns draft pick imo. Unless there are serious chemistry issues(which doesn't appear to be the case)....we should just play out this year and choose to part ways in the off-season. The only person that needs to be fired immediately is BK.

Obviously, you skipped my previous theory on who should replace Woodson:
Billy Knight.

And actually, I would not be surprised - nor upset - if he turned out to be worse.

I am firm on my position, and have been since November. Especially now that the trade deadline's passed, and we traded our second rounder, it doesn't much matter.

The argument is simple:

* This team is going nowhere with Woodson. We aren't gelling, we aren't cohesive. We've had a core of 4 guys for 3 years (JJ, Smith, Williams, & Chill) and they aren't getting any better as a team -- if anything, as a team, they are regressing. Irregardless of how you feel about our roster at PG and C -- big C or athletic C, pass-happy PG or shooting PG -- what we have isn't developing or getting better. They are getting worse. We took last year's team, added Horford, and ended up with a worse record through the same number of games as last year, despite last year's roster leading the league in games missed due to injury. Woodson is ineffective, and even if they make the playoffs (and IMO with Woodson as HC, they will not make the playoffs), he should not be re-signed.

* Where Phoenix's draft pick ends up being is of no material importance to the current decision making process. Keep Woodson, fire Woodson, keep BK, fire BK, we don't get the pick back, so what does it matter?

* We have no draft picks in the upcoming draft, so there's no need for BK to focus on scouting college or foreigners. We have no salary cap space to sign FAs, so there's no need for BK to focus on scouting potential FAs. We need to re-sign our own FAs -- the Joshes, specifically -- but can't negotiate until July, so BK doesn't need to focus on that. We'll probably have to sign some undrafted FAs or maybe a MLE or BAE, but that can wait until after the draft to see who's available. And the trade deadline is passed, so BK's done with all that. Which means that between now and July, BK has nothing to do but attend Hawks games.

* BK had a vision for this team when he put it together. A vision that Woodson has failed to develop.

So I say fire Woodson, and put BK as acting HC. Let him evaluate the team himself, and mold it to his own vision. Let him evaluate the rest of the coaching staff -- the same coaching staff that in some cases he forced to remain with this team against their wills last season. Its obvious -- to me, anyway -- that both players and assistants are unhappy with Woodson. So remove Woodson, put BK in charge, and see what he can make from this mess. And then evaluate him at the end of the season.

If he turns things around, he obviously wasn't far off; let him hire someone more inline with the team's strengths, or promote a worthy assistant, and go back upstairs.

If he makes things worse, fire him outright.

This is exactly what ASG has done with the Thrashers. Waddell removed an ineffective coach -- a GOOD coach at that, with multiple years on his contract, but one who just wasn't effective with the Thrashers. Waddell's been working with Beast to see if he's worthy Coach material. Waddell's job is pretty much on the line.

BK needs to know his job is on the line. What better way to do so than to put him there. Same situation, with an even cheaper outcome -- since Woodson's in his last year. Get it over with now. And if we end up firing BK, since there's little except for negotiating the Joshes this summer to do, we have plenty of time to focus on hiring a good permanent GM and HC.

[Rip2137]

And I normally agree that you shouldn't fire a coach unless you have a better option available. However, I believe that anyone else is a better option, at this point.

Just about every message board on this site in the last 2 years has wanted the coach fired w/o a viable replacement. The funny thing is that they are suprised when the new coach is even worse. I'm almost positive that all of Woodson's assistants are worse than him or else they would have been candidates for another head coaching job. Firing Woody mid-season w/o having a replacement in mind would only help the Suns draft pick imo. Unless there are serious chemistry issues(which doesn't appear to be the case)....we should just play out this year and choose to part ways in the off-season. The only person that needs to be fired immediately is BK.

Whoa now, I have mentioned Paul Westphal, Paul silas, Terry Stots again, Terry Porter, Alvin Gentry, or how about throwing a bone to Marc Iavoroni this past offseason...there are plenty of guys that I have mentioned that I would have no problem coaching this team. Sure, closing out this year is fine, but they should have fired him last year and gotten a good coach.

Instead they played out this contract and cost the team a few years.

[LL Cool Scott]

LL, you gave that list of "bad" coaches (Flip Saunders? Doc Rivers is a bad coach? Dunleavy?). Honestly tell me one of them that wouldn't do a better job than Mike Woodson?

I am sorry but Childress, Marvin, Horford and Law is not a bad lottery haul.

#1 - You're missing my larger point about coaching. If you look at so-called "great" coaches, you will notice that when they had bad talent their teams performed poorly and when they had good talent their teams performed well. Look it up - it's stupid to even argue that this isn't true.

#2 - Childress, Marvin, Shelden, Horford and Law is a TERRIBLE lottery haul when compared to Deng, Paul, Roy, Horford and Law. Billy Knight is the worst talent evaluator in the league. His draft record is unprecedentedly bad. Name one GM who has EVER blown as many high lottery picks. Please - name one.

#3- Woodson is not a good coach. No argument there. But in the heirarchy of problems with this franchise, he is a distant distant distant third behind ASG and Billy Knight.

[NDaATL]

-= original quote snipped =-



#1 - You're missing my larger point about coaching. If you look at so-called "great" coaches, you will notice that when they had bad talent their teams performed poorly and when they had good talent their teams performed well. Look it up - it's stupid to even argue that this isn't true.

#2 - Childress, Marvin, Shelden, Horford and Law is a TERRIBLE lottery haul when compared to Deng, Paul, Roy, Horford and Law. Billy Knight is the worst talent evaluator in the league. His draft record is unprecedentedly bad. Name one GM who has EVER blown as many high lottery picks. Please - name one.

#3- Woodson is not a good coach. No argument there. But in the heirarchy of problems with this franchise, he is a distant distant distant third behind ASG and Billy Knight.

I agree completely about BK, I've been bashing him for 4 years, he completely sucks. I definitely agree he's a bigger problem than Woody, but that doesn't mean Woody himself isn't also a BIG problem himself.

You are correct that BK has given Woody a horrible, untalented, non-fitting roster for most of Woodson's time here, but that doesn't mean that Woodson still can't be evaluated. Coaches can be evaluated regardless of the talent on the team. And Woodson IMO has proven completely inadequate. The only season that I don't think he could be evaluated was the 13-69 season, because our team had just been gutted, and was just "that bad".