Game 54: Atlanta at San Antonio

[HMFFL]

Rip2137,

Maybe the team was out coached last night to a certain extent. I still see three of our key players with 4 or more turnovers and it's not like Woodson shot .333 from the field, our players did.

[Rip2137]

Oh I agree. But you know how you can get those shooting percentages up? Running the simple smart play. thats what San Antonio did in the second half. they went to basketball 101 to make up for their bad shooting night.

Right now Marvin Williams, Josh Smith and Al Horford all have wraps on their wrist and hands from injuries. Add in a new point guard and turnovers are going to happen at a higher rate and jump shooting is going to take a hit from those players.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean you can't go and make simple adjustments or simple plays to work around it. Run the play I just said, and San Antonio either has to stop doubling Joe, or they will start doubling from the top like you want them to and leave open Salim. Instead, Woodson pulled Salim like it was his fault the play didn't work, kept running it until the lead got huge and then pulled his starters.

And if anything else, its easy to see that even with Bibby here, he is still turning back and looking to woodson for the play when taking the ball up the court. The team automatically playing better when they are running is half because it is their strength and half they aren't getting into those crappy offensive sets that Woodson has that appears to have no outlets, meaning if the initial play breaks down, there is no secondary or third option.

Its the equivilant of calling a passing play in football with no checkdowns...basically a Hail Mary on every play. Either it works or goes to crap. Thats not coaching.

[Rip2137]

And once again, I don't want it to sound like I am absolving the players at all.

Marvin, your wrist is hurt, so your jumper is off. Go to the rim, get your feet set and go up with two hands and finish or get fouled. All this flopping around tossing up shots at the rim looking for contact instead of scoring is dumb and horrible.

Josh, your hand is hurt and wrapped. So stop trying to dribble like it isn't. As a matter of fact, stop trying spin moves in the lane that require you to dribble. Anything that requires you to put the ball on the floor in any way that isn't just getting more position, stop it. You are going to keep getting stripped and keep turning the ball over on crossovers and spins because you don't have full control.

the players need to make some adjustments to their games.

But I just can stand a head coach not making simple coaching decisions.

[Jjforprez]

Rip2137,

Maybe the team was out coached last night to a certain extent. I still see three of our key players with 4 or more turnovers and it's not like Woodson shot .333 from the field, our players did.

Yeah, but you guys that don't see Woodson's mistake don't get it.... none of the turnovers, and poor shooting matters down the stretch of the game. You still have a game to win. And as a coach, you still have to be thinking of a way to pull out the win despite how poorly your team has played. It's his job....

We're simply saying, there was more he could have done to give his team a chance to win. The fact that he stayed with so many guys who were playing poorly shows a lack of adjustment.

When a good defensive team like SA is collapsing in the lane, you need shooters to spread the floor. He went to Joe in the post, but who'd he have to kick it out to?? Chill made a high IQ play by flashing underneath the basket to give Joe a lane to pass to, but that was it.

I know the players made many mistakes out there, but I still say as a coach you can't let that be an excuse for not trying to come up with a strategy to still try and pull out a win. Woodson didn't do anything different down the stretch of that game.... he kept going with the same guys who screwed up all night. Where's the vision???

[smabie]

Exactly, Rip & Jj. Precisely what I've been saying since November...

Last night's game is a perfect example of Adjusting and Not Adjusting.

In the first half, Al, Zaza, and Smooth completely shut down the lane when the Spurs used two big men (Timmy & Fabio to start, others later). So to start the second half, San Antonio came out with Fabio on the bench and Horry on the court. Horry, as Smooth's man, stayed along the perimeter, forcing Smooth to play outside on defense, opening up the lane for both Timmy and the driving guards. Al & Zaza still did well, but San Antonio adjusted by moving away from the two-big offense, and San Antonio scored a crapload on the Hawks after having been shutdown for a half.

On the other side of the court, the Hawks performed best getting down inside. Did they do this? No. Al & Zaza -- who both had pretty decent games, offensively -- never shared the court together. The Hawks rarely drove to the basket. Later, as the Hawks pulled back to single digits, the Spurs closed up the lane, and doubled JJ, who was the only shooter with production (Chill didn't, all his points were in the 4th, and he got them mostly by cleaning up other people's misses). Timmy stayed in with 5 minuted left, despite having 5 fouls. Did the Hawks drive on Timmy to take him out of the game? No. Did the Hawks put more shooters (either Salim or JRich -- didn't have to be both) alongside JJ and Bibby to open up the floor for them, so they could get better shots? No. So you ended up with JJ doubled, and Bibby putting up forced shots which he wasn't making.

Spurs adjusted, and produced as a result. Hawks ran the same plays, even after the Spurs adjusted to what the Hawks were doing, and so they stopped working. Woodson, ergo, sucks.

[JoshB914]

For those of you crowning J Rich- He is a good role player because he can shoot. But have you seen the guy try to play defense? He's awful. He needs to work on that and if he gets better he can have a long career.

[smabie]

For the record, I am *not* crowning JRich.

He is a role player. He is a shooter. He is nothing more than that.

But on a night where your starting 5 (or the supposed-to-be-productive ones, anyway) can't hit the water from a rowboat, and where you need outside shooting (and most of your starters have issues outside of 18 feet), then perhaps playing JRich is a better option than playing one of those other, less productive, cold-shooting guys.

ETA:
Besides which, guys like JRich and Salim and so-on can't become better, either at shooting or clutch situations or defense or any of those game situations, unless they are in those game situations. Barry and Kerr didn't magically become Barry and Kerr. Horry has never considered himself a star. They were role players, and they became role players by being given a role to perform, and learning how to do so. You can't train a role player to become a clutch shooter by having him play 1-on-1 against the Video tech every day, and leaving him on the bench in the very situations where you need him to become a clutch shooter. This is why guys who should become our role players are regressing under Woodson's care; because he doesn't use them in the very situations for which they are on the team. Need a stop? Bring out Mario West. Need an inside presence on the Offensive Boards? Solo. Need one inside on Defense? Zaza. Need outside shooting? Salim & Jrich are your guys. Instead, they sit on the bench, and regress, and then when they are finally called upon (often too late, or too short a leash, at that), they either can't produce on command and it's said, "Oh, that's why they sit," or they do produce, and then sit for another month until the next time Woody deigns to play them.

It's BS. And it's Woodson, not BK, who is directly responsible for said BS.

[JoshB914]

And he did play, but defensively he is so terrible. He shouldn't be playing over Marvin.

[smabie]

And he did play, but defensively he is so terrible. He shouldn't be playing over Marvin.

JRich started the 2nd quarter last night, briefly alongside JJ, then in place of JJ. Score was 16-5 at the time. When he came out 6:16 later, it was (after Ginobli's FTs) 28-18. A difference of -1.

He defended mostly against Finley (0 pts) and Ginobli (2 pts, from FTs on a foul by JRich).

The next time he came into the game was with 26 seconds left at the end, in place of Johnson.

So please tell me, which part of JRich's defense last night was poor? And in what way was Marvin's (or even Smooth's) contribution to defense over the last 5 minutes of the game that much more valuable than (Salim, who is really the guy I thought should have been in the game, as opposed to JRich, though he could have been helpful as well, or) JRich's potential contributions from the outside shooting (which could have opened up the middle for JJ and/or Bibby to drive against Timmy, and get him to foul out)?

[Rip2137]

And he did play, but defensively he is so terrible. He shouldn't be playing over Marvin.

But don't you see how ridiculous it is to be so cut and dry about it.

Is marvin a better player? Yes. He is. 100% so.

BUT if he is having an off night, why wouldn't you go with the guy that gives you a better chance to win.

Since we were playing San Antonio, think back, NBA finals, Tony Parker obviously the best point guard on the Spurs roster. But who got 4th quarter minutes in very important games? Speedy Claxton. And why? Parker was having off games and Claxton gave them the best chance to win. It would have been absolutely silly to play Parker anyway because he was the better player overall. On those nights, Speedy Claxton had it going and Tony didn't.

The same thing has to be used here. Is Salim or Richardson better players than Marvin. No... not at all. But last night they gave the team a better chance to win out there in the 4th than Marvin did. and I just find it a little silly to not play them because Marvin is the better player.

[JoshB914]

No I wouldn't change it up. We were playing great defense with Marvin in the game. J Rich isn't an extended minutes guy yet because of his defense. Just my opinion though.

[HoopsGuru25]

Rip Salim and Jrich can't guard anybody. The idea of playing them when we are down sounds good but then you remember Ellis/Price blowing by Salim and Richardson getting overpowered by Harpring/Davis in the low post. Whenever they are in the game teams just go 1 on 1 against them. Marvin is one of our better defenders(I thought he played pretty good D last night) and he didn't turn the ball over. Turnovers are much worse than missed shots. The players who needed to be replaced down the stretch were Bibby and Josh because they were missing shots AND turning the ball over.

[conleyorbust]

The players who needed to be replaced down the stretch were Bibby and Josh because they were missing shots AND turning the ball over.

Josh puts us in a bit of a pickle because he is too important to the D. Even with his ridiculously bad offensive performance last night, and it was that, he had the best +/- out of the starters... and he played a lot of minutes. Bibby is tough too because without Acie we don't have another pg at all and SA could force more TOs than they already were if you let Chilz bring up the ball.

[killbuckner]

All I know is that if Woodson had put Richardson out there in Marvin's place and he had missed a few shots then people here would be ridiculing Woodson for that as well.

[JoshB914]

Regardless of +/- last night, Marvin Williams is a far superior defender to J Rich. J Rich is probably one of the worst off-the-ball defenders I've seen in a while. I still love his game on offense though so he should get minutes. But he needs to improve on his D, a lot of it probably has to do with a lack of NBA experience.

[HoopsGuru25]

Minny is beating Utah in the 4th quarter. They are winning the turnover battle 9 to 22. You have to take advantage(which includes taking care of the ball) vs elite teams when they have off games and the Hawks didn't do that vs the Jazz or Spurs.

[smabie]

All I know is that if Woodson had put Richardson out there in Marvin's place and he had missed a few shots then people here would be ridiculing Woodson for that as well.

No, because then I'd see that Woodson was actually adjusting, and I'd defend his dumb @$$ as vehemently for doing so as I attack him for not doing so. My issue with Woodson is that he doesn't learn from past mistakes, doesn't teach to prevent future mistakes, and doesn't put his team in the best position to succeed and win.

The few times he changes things up, I lay off him.

And what I want to freaking know is why EVERYONE keeps focusing on f'ing Jeremy Richardson.

My first choice of a player to have been put on the GD court at 5:02 would not have been JRich, and not have been Marv, but instead would have been Salim. Okay? Christ.

That being said, if he HAD used Salim, or JRich, or used both Al & Zaza at the same time inside, or something different than he had done in every other similar situation over the past 3 years then I and everyone else could see that he was attempting something different, and then adjusting.

Popovich put Horry out to start the second half instead of Oberto. Horry's slower, shorter, and less productive than Oberto overall. But he's an outside shooter, and as a result he opened up the Spurs game, not by doing anything himself, but by being a presence on the court. Oberto's currently a better player, but Horry was better for the situation, and even though he personally did little, just by being out there, he disrupted the Hawks defense.

JRich doesn't have to play defense well; he can cover Bruce Bowen. My grandmother can cover Bruce Bowen, and she's dead. As for Salim, he did play defense pretty damned well last night, so I don't take that as an excuse. (If you say he sucks at defense one more time, I'll know that you haven't watched a single second of the Spurs game, and are no better than a troll. Stop living in your mother's basement, spending hours pouring over the Elias stats, and pay attention, hmm?)

Salim could have been on the court as a Wing with Bibby (PG), JJ (W), Chill (F), and Al (C). Open up the offense, use some screens, pass the ball out of the double, and someone will hit. Maybe you win, maybe you don't, but at least you did something productive. Otherwise its just stand there with the ball, force up a bad shot, and wonder why you suck. Well, not really wonder; you suck because your head coach doesn't learn. He doesn't teach. He doesn't coach. He just stands there, and yells, and hasn't learned a damned thing from any of the good to great coaches he's been around from his college days, pro days, and coaching days. He hasn't done squat, and he needs to be fired.