The poll you've been waiting three years for.

[HMFFL]

Considering he would have walked for nothing, i'd say we did pretty good out of it.

Your right, for the most part, Phoenix did a good job getting rid of Joe Johnson. The problem is, if it was the other way around, Atlanta would have been criticized for locking Boris Diaw into a 9 million dollar contract.

Now, it's going to be interesting to see what Phoenix does with the final first round pick via Atlanta. As a Hawk fan, I really don't care about the first round picks, because Joe provided the Hawks with something to build around at the time of the trade, and Atlanta still has some young talent that will continue to push the franchise towards the right direction.

[JoshB914]

I've posted this a million times, yes BK was fooled. But we still got the better of the deal (the question is not whether BK got fooled but who got a better deal). Also, Diaw is a $9M waste of space for Phoenix right now. I bet they would have rather just let JJ walk then end up with him taking up all that cap room on their roster!

[LL Cool Scott]

^ Tell Sarver I said Hi next time you talk to him..

Have you noticed that no one in this thread even takes this ridiculous argument of yours seriously enough to even respond to it? You might want to quit talking for a while, champ...

[HoopsGuru25]

There was already a big thread on this a couple of months ago that finished the whole 'matching argument" and only Rip(who could be a family member of BK)still thought the Suns would match. Joe said in the pre-season that Phoenix was bluffing about matching so no teams would bother signing him to an offer sheet.

[conleyorbust]

this argument happens on this board once every 4 weeks.

[NDaATL]

-= original quote snipped =-



Have you noticed that no one in this thread even takes this ridiculous argument of yours seriously enough to even respond to it? You might want to quit talking for a while, champ...

Says the guy who wanted Brandan Wright..

[NDaATL]

BTW I'll let AHF speak for this one..

Re Atlanta, what the Hawks gave up was clearly less valuable than what they got. The question comes down to whether the Suns would have kept JJ or matched and subsequently dealt him if the Hawks refused to kick in one or both of the picks. (Losing Diaw was a positive given his play in Atlanta so that is not a real loss). As Raptor's GM, Jerry Colangelo said the Suns would have matched had Atlanta not kicked in the picks. Also, remember, that Amare was still on his rookie contract at the time so the Suns could have kept JJ shortterm and then dumped him for cap relief/picks if they chose to do so without incurring the luxury tax for more than a season. Even if it is likely that the Suns would not match, however, is that a risk worth taking?

If the Suns matched, Atlanta loses the only multiple All-Star it has had over the last decade and certainly the only big-time free agent it could have gotten who was young enough to grow with this core. JJ is 26 years old which is not the case for a lot of big FA acquisitions 3 years into their FA contract. So it was worth it to give up something in my mind to get certainty that you acquire JJ.

I have always contended that we gave up more than we had to but I think that Diaw and a first round pick (more protected if Atlanta's own) would have been fine. The real risk with the deal Atlanta made was if they didn't get a top 3 pick in 2007 (they did) or if they failed to make they playoffs in 2008 (they didn't). You can very credibly argue that it was too much, but the most the Hawks are really losing in this deal is a mid-round first and that isn't that huge a deal for this team (they don't need more youngsters given that they are the youngest team in the league as it is and will be bringing over David Anderson next season). The bottomline result is clearly positive for Atlanta and if they overpaid they didn't give up so much that it is worth fussing about 3 years down the line, IMO.

This has been my point for three years. I honestly DO agree that BK could have probably traded less (for example getting more protection on the pick, even though that doesn't matter now b/c he got lucky as hell). Regardless, even if there was a 75% chance that PHX doesn't match, I wouldn't risk not having JJ just to keep a 21st overall pick and a 15th pick this year. As he said, Amare was still on his rookie contract at the time, and PHX could've dealt JJ that next season and still gotten some kind of compensation for him.

There is no 100% guaranteed way of knowing that PHX wasn't going to match, so don't act like there was.

[HoopsGuru25]

1. It was common knowledge that the Hawks were overpaying to get Joe at the time. Joe was a good player but he wasn't an all-star and he was clearly the 4th best player on the team. Giving him a max contract was a gamble...throwing in the picks was (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

2. Teams don't sign players to max deals just to "trade them down the road" especially when the player isn't proven as a 1st option. If Phoenix wanted him then they would have let him sign the offer sheet and matched because he said he was willing to back there as long as they paid him what he wanted.

3. Joe said last October that they were bluffing about matching. That should put an end to all that.

[NDaATL]

1. It was common knowledge that the Hawks were overpaying to get Joe at the time. Joe was a good player but he wasn't an all-star and he was clearly the 4th best player on the team. Giving him a max contract was a gamble...throwing in the picks was (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

2. Teams don't sign players to max deals just to "trade them down the road" especially when the player isn't proven as a 1st option..

I agree completely with both of these statements, but I still wouldn't risk it other than we should've given more protection on our first. I also agree that given his play at the time he wasn't a max player, but he was a VERY important part of their team, he shot 47% from three that year, and don't forget they also had just lost Quentin who was a key 3pt shooter for their team at that time. Also Barbosa wasn't even a DECENT player for the Suns during that season, so losing JJ was not a desirable option. And JJ was often a player they'd go to for isolations when they needed a basket because JJ has always been a good iso player.

If Phoenix wanted him then they would have let him sign the offer sheet and matched because he said he was willing to back there as long as they paid him what he wanted

JJ publically came out and said that he wanted to go to Atlanta. He NEVER said anything about "if PHX matches than I'll stay", that had nothing to do with it. He straight up told PHX he didn't want them to match if we made the offer. This is what sparked the S&T because supposedly (in a few articles that were published) Sarver/GM said they weren't letting him go for nothing.

3. Joe said last October that they were bluffing about matching. That should put an end to all that.

When did he say that? I missed it. If he in fact confirmed it than I'll believe you.

However, at the time BK didn't know if they'd match or not, and frankly that's not a risk worth taking IMO. But again, I do agree that he should've gotten more protection on our picks, though.

[HoopsGuru25]

I had a few teams come at me that summer and they backed out because Phoenix put the word out that they were going to match anything," Johnson said. "A lot of teams were like, 'Why take a chance on Joe Johnson when you're not going to get him anyway.' And all along, Phoenix wasn't going to match. They were just scaring teams off. They didn't scare Atlanta off. The Hawks stayed in there. I'll always remember that."

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showfl ... o=&fpart=1

Johnson, though, insists that his play and commitment to the Suns wouldn't be affected if a signed Hawks offer sheet results in a return to the desert.

"I would come back and work as hard as I ever have," Johnson said. "If they match, all this stuff is behind me from that minute on. I hope everybody [in Phoenix] puts everything behind them, too."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/s ... id=2120105

http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php? ... c&start=12

[NDaATL]

And all along, Phoenix wasn't going to match. They were just scaring teams off.

OK, now that we know this, I believe it. However, how would we have known that in 2005? From everything PHX said, they were going to match. At the time, we didn't know if they were bluffing. Even if there was only a 25% chance they weren't bluffing, that's not a chance that I'd want to take.

Similar to the Hawks right now, all indications are that we would match any offer for Josh Smith, but how do we know if that's a bluff or not? How do other teams know if we're bluffing?

Johnson, though, insists that his play and commitment to the Suns wouldn't be affected if a signed Hawks offer sheet results in a return to the desert.

"I would come back and work as hard as I ever have," Johnson said. "If they match, all this stuff is behind me from that minute on. I hope everybody [in Phoenix] puts everything behind them, too."

Yeah, I remember this quote. Do you see the key words, "IF they match". JJ says IF, meaning he didn't say that they wouldn't match at that time, so how could BK have known if they would or not? Is that really a risk worth taking considering we were only giving up Diaw who sucked here and perhaps the most heavily protected pick in NBA history? The only important asset we gave them was our first (which like I've agreed that I think BK should've gotten more protection on). And regardless, it's not that important to discuss this anymore anyway because in hindsight we really didn't give up much at all. This would be a completely different story though had BK not fell ass backwards into a top 3 pick last year, which is why I have always bashed him for not getting more protection on it.

[killbuckner]

Anyone who was paying attention at the time knew the Suns wouldn't match a max contract offer for their 4th best player. Its just now that Joe's quotes make it that much tougher to be in denial about it. Teams saying they will match any offer is absolutely irrelevant. There is absolutely no reason not to say that. The clippers said it about Odom, the Hawks will say it about Childress, its FREE to say.

[NDaATL]

^ My point exactly, of course teams will say that. Regardless, there was no way to 100% be sure that they would or would not match at the time. No way at all we knew. It was definitely suspected that they wouldn't match, but not guaranteed.

[LL Cool Scott]

I'll concede it wasn't 100%, but it was probably about 98% certain. Which means that Billy Knightmare gave away 2 1st rounders on a 2% hunch the Suns might match. Why does he still have a job?

[NDaATL]

I'll concede it wasn't 100%, but it was probably about 98% certain. Which means that Billy Knightmare gave away 2 1st rounders on a 2% hunch the Suns might match.

While I agree that it was more likely they wouldn't match, I think the likelihood was higher than 2%. Remember that PHX hadn't yet shown themselves as being cheap. Not to mention, they had just went from a lotto team to a contender in one year, and JJ was a huge part of that. Also Q-Rich was just traded (a starter who had a very good year that year and was a big 3pt shooter for them), so losing JJ wasn't a desirable option, and he shot 47% from 3pt that year. Barbosa wasn't even a FACTOR at that time, they didn't know he'd step in and succeed, and Amare was still on his rookie contract. I honestly don't think it was THAT unlikely that they'd match, although I agree it was more likely they wouldn't.

To put it into perspective, what if next season the Hawks make a huge turnaround and win almost 60 games, become a contender, and the key reason is Marvin stepping up and scoring about 18 ppg, about 5 assists, shot 47% from three, led our team in minutes and routinely guarded opposing teams best scorer. While I agree that won't happen, it'd tough to let him go even for a high price if someone offered him the max. Because you have to remember how young JJ was and how much improvement he had recently shown, as with Marvin if that were to happen.

Why does he still have a job?

Agreed 100%, I've wanted him fired as soon as he made the Marvin selection.