Less Smoove-More Horford

[They Call Me Cash]

conleyorbust has made the best points in this thread and I fully support his opinion on the subject.

[raleigh]

Camby is a terrible man-up defender. Trading away Smith for him is silly.

In fact, there's really no reason to trade anyone other than Childress for at least two years.

[cavsfan_osiris]

The Marvin/Horford forward combo is a much better one long-term, IMHO.

What do ATL fans see in Marv? He's a pretty average NBA wingman IMO with potential to be nothing more than an average NBA wingman. You've already got Chillz who is more versatile than Marv, they are both equally poor jumpshooters Chillz is more efficient though and the kicker is Chillz is a way better defender.

Why do you need Marv when you have Chillz? Neither are great players, they are both average NBA wingmen, but I don't see what ATL fans see in Marv. Guys like them come a dime-a-dozen and are easily replaceable.

On Josh Smith: Smoove is a good player, but I would trade him. Horford looks to be a very promising PF and undersized PF is the only position Smoove can play.

Smith has high value and I think as soon as it makes sense the Hawks should convert that value into a quality player, potentially a center to play alongside Horford. If they can't get a solid big to play alongside Horford then they can go for the best small forward or point guard. Mike Bibby is a shadow of his former self and hasn't operated as a true point guard since he was on Vancouver. Bibby's value is as a significant expiring contract next year, obviously not the PG of the future.

With Bibby's expiring, Josh Smith's trade value and young talent on the roster I see the Hawks as having a very promising future. If Dallas overreacts and fires Avery Johnson if I were a Hawks fans I'd be screaming from the rooftops for the team to interview him. Mike Woodson has done a horrible job with this team IMO and Avery would be the perfect change in direction.

[conleyorbust]

-= original quote snipped =-



What do ATL fans see in Marv? He's a pretty average NBA wingman IMO with potential to be nothing more than an average NBA wingman. You've already got Chillz who is more versatile than Marv, they are both equally poor jumpshooters Chillz is more efficient though and the kicker is Chillz is a way better defender.

Well you might be right about Marv's ceiling, although that is yet to be determined.

However, Marvin has a much better jumpshot than Childress. The problem is that he doesn't have enough range on it and he is painfully inconsistent. He gets good elevation, has great form, and a really quick release. As far as defense, Childress is slow laterally and Marv seems to lose focus. Neither one is particularly special on that end but Marv certainly has more potential because he is bigger and quicker.

I see Williams' floor being about where he is now, meaning its possible he never gets over the strange confidence/consistency issues that keep him from really excelling. His ceiling is tougher, the hype when he was coming into the league was so loud but I just don't see it. I see a guy who could develop into a very good, but not great scorer with excellent defense. A bigger Kevin Martin who plays D. That isn't what I expect of course, just what I think the absolute best possiblity is if he can add range, become more consistent, tighten his handle, and become more aggressive.

[LL Cool Scott]

Fan's opinions aside for a moment...most analysts (including our own Dominique Wilkins) have consistently said that Josh Smith is ideally suited for small forward and Al Horford is ideally suited for power forward.

Given that, it seems that we have three players ideally suited for one position in Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, and Josh Childress. All three have decent trade value - so the logical move would appear to keep the one with the most talent and potential (Smith, in most analyst's opinion) and eventually trade the other two for help where we need it more (Center, Point Guard).

[tontoz]

most analysts (including our own Dominique Wilkins) have consistently said that Josh Smithis ideally suited for small forward

I don't buy this for a second.

Smith is a horrible jump shooter. There is nobody in the NBA who takes as many jumpers as smith and shoots them worse. His ball handling skills are also far below average for a 3 and he also lacks the quickness necesary to keep guys in front of him on defense.

We lack perimeter shooting already. Moving Smith to the 3 will just make things worse.

His shotblocking is much more effective near the basket and his overall production has been much better at the 4.

[Rip2137]

most analysts (including our own Dominique Wilkins) have consistently said that Josh Smithis ideally suited for small forward

I don't buy this for a second.

Smith is a horrible jump shooter. There is nobody in the NBA who takes as many jumpers as smith and shoots them worse. His ball handling skills are also far below average for a 3 and he also lacks the quickness necesary to keep guys in front of him on defense.

We lack perimeter shooting already. Moving Smith to the 3 will just make things worse.

His shotblocking is much more effective near the basket and his overall production has been much better at the 4.

I disagree with him not having the quickness to keep guys in front of him on defense. I think he most definately can.

But I agree with again that his handling and quickness offensive wise creates mismatches at the 4 on the offensive side of the court that will disappear if he moves to the 3.

But I think the same thing happens if you move Horford to the 4. He is out running Centers up the court and such, his face up moves, he is a mixmatch at center. I don't think he would at the PF.

[tontoz]

But I think the same thing happens if you move Horford to the 4. He is out running Centers up the court and such, his face up moves, he is a mixmatch at center.

In order for that to be true he would have to be scoring a lot more than 10ppg. We are probably at least two years away from seeing what Horford is really capable of on offense because he basically has to change his game and mindset to attacking bigger players.

[conleyorbust]

Before last season I didn't think he had the quicks for it on D but I changed my mind after seeing him this season. He'd be fine on that side of the ball... I'm not concerned about the ball-handling either. The shot however is a deal breaker. If he can get his J to an acceptable level than I'm all for it because he could be terrifying at the 3 but it hasn't happened yet.

For now I have no problem with our Josh/Al situation. We need a solid backup for either one/both of them but they can start at those positions for a long time.

[Rip2137]

But I think the same thing happens if you move Horford to the 4. He is out running Centers up the court and such, his face up moves, he is a mixmatch at center.

In order for that to be true he would have to be scoring a lot more than 10ppg. We are probably at least two years away from seeing what Horford is really capable of on offense because he basically has to change his game and mindset to attacking bigger players.

You can not still be serious? He averages so few points because he gets few touchs in this offense. You can not realistically still believe that he is averaging 10 because that is all he can average.

He is sharing the court with 4-5 guys that will take more than 10 shots a night. There are only so many shots to go around dude. Geez.

[HoopsGuru25]

Rip. I am a big Horford fan and praised Knight for finally making a logical pick but do you really think he's better off going against centers? It's only logical that he's going to be better going against players closer to his size ala Amare.

[conleyorbust]

Rip. I am a big Horford fan and praised Knight for finally making a logical pick but do you really think he's better off going against centers? It's only logical that he's going to be better going against players closer to his size ala Amare.

Haha, when Nash first came Amare's scoring average jumped up 6 points and his efficiency skyrocketed and people said it was because he was facing up centers.

Now that Shaq is drawing doubles (as opposed to Marion whose game was based off of his ability to shed coverage) and Amare is taking more shots (again because Marion isn't there to take them), he is scoring even more.

Amare is a perfect example of why the nomenclature doesn't really matter. So is Boozer for that matter, he's a power forward in name and he guards power forwards but he is guarded by the center almost all the time... remember when he destroyed Yao?

[HoopsGuru25]

Good points, good points. I always assumed that Amare's scoring average went up because they had Steve Nash(as opposed to playing center)and I always thought he fouled so much because he played center. My main problem with Horford right now is that he's not getting to the free throw line enough. I think he's a good shooter and good at finishing inside but he has to get more aggressive on offense regardless of who is guarding him.

[tontoz]

You can not still be serious? He averages so few points because he gets few touchs in this offense. You can not realistically still believe that he is averaging 10 because that is all he can average.

He is sharing the court with 4-5 guys that will take more than 10 shots a night. There are only so many shots to go around dude. Geez.

It is funny watching you punk your own argument.

You say Horford can be a mismatch for other centers. How is that going to happen if he is getting only 10 shots a game?

In order for him to be a mismatch for centers he has to score on them much more than they score on him. That just hasn't happened.

[conleyorbust]

Good points, good points. I always assumed that Amare's scoring average went up because they had Steve Nash(as opposed to playing center)and I always thought he fouled so much because he played center. My main problem with Horford right now is that he's not getting to the free throw line enough. I think he's a good shooter and good at finishing inside but he has to get more aggressive on offense regardless of who is guarding him.

Oh I agree completely with the Nash sentiment. I'm just saying that there is no demonstratable difference b/w his offensive production at the 4 or 5. As far as Amare and his fouls, well he is a horrible and unintelligent defender, so hopefully we don't have that problem.

A big difference, in my mind at least, is that Al doesn't have the aggression of Amare or even Boozer. That is really what you are talking about as far as his FTs go. I'm of the thought that if he isn't aggressive in facing up and driving by centers, he's not going to be aggressive in posting smaller PFs... he has the ability to do both and its not like he hasn't been matched up with PFs yet. I won't disagree with people who think he might fare better at PF for one reason or another but he hasn't shown it this year.