Should Marvelous shoot the 3?

[parson]

Sekou's blog posits an interesting question as to whether or not Marvin Williams should be learning to shoot the 3 (link, http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared ... ation.html ).

To me, it's a no-brainer. His best offensive move is from 18 feet out, where he either shoots or fakes a shot and drives past the defender. A 3 pt. shot seems - to me - to be an extension of that move: either shoot the 3 or fake it and drive to the 18 ft. spot. Then simply repeat the maneuver again from there (as usual).

What do y'all think? ... especially since Sekou's "insider" thinks it's a mistake?

Let me add, if Marvin shoots the 3, it'll force Smoove to more of a mid-range game and AWAY from the 3. Wouldn't Smoove be more effective from 18 feet and in?

[conleyorbust]

Only so many people can be primarily slashers in an offense, this isn't NCAA. Marv isn't nearly as effective at finishing as our other two slashers, Joe and Josh, but he is a much better shooter than Josh. If he can extend his range another 2 feet, he can get that extra point which will both space the floor for Smith, Joe, and Al inside and, more importantly give us another point up on the scoreboard.

I also happen to think it would take just as much work for Marv to extend his range as it would for him to turn himself into a consistent post-up guy down low or a sharp ball-handler so why not go for what the team needs more?

[JoshB914]

I don't see why Sekou was so "surprised" that experts deemed Marvin as the key. He has been all along and a lot of us have been saying that. If we want to become a legitimate threat every night, then Marvin needs to become a consistent offensive option, something he hasn't done so far in his career. If he can do that, then this team is drastically better than what it was last season. Unfortunately, I don't see it in him, he's just not there mentally.

As for the 3, I think he needs to at least be worth covering on the perimeter. The C's literally left him wide open countless times in the playoffs from mid-range because he was playing scared. If he shows the ability to consistently hit the jumper (and we know he has it in him to do that) from ANYWHERE on the court, it will add another dimension to his game and our offense as a whole.

[parson]

Marvin has shot so much from just inside the 3 pt. line that I think it'd be harder for him to learn to post up or handle the ball better than it would for him to just learn to shoot the 3. Sometimes, it seems to me as if he looks to line up one step inside the line.

[D21]

Sekou's "insider" thinks it's a mistake because he seems to see it like the 3pts shot would be the main part of the his game, which is wrong. He doesn't have to change his game and become a 3 pts shooter, it's just another weapon to add, and to use when it's a possibility. No need to use all the systems including Marvin with him ending on the 3pts line.
It's more on the opportunities when he can be free at 3, and if he can hit these shots, it will change the way the defense see him, even if he doesn't go behind the line all the time.

[killbuckner]

I think the question is whether Marvin can go from a nonfactor from 3 point range to an asset in that area in one offseason. The insider probably just thinks that he can help the team more by getting better at the skills he already possesses rather than hoping to develop a skill he hasn't ever shown in his first 3 years in the league/

[conleyorbust]

I think the question is whether Marvin can go from a nonfactor from 3 point range to an asset in that area in one offseason. The insider probably just thinks that he can help the team more by getting better at the skills he already possesses rather than hoping to develop a skill he hasn't ever shown in his first 3 years in the league/

Maybe, I don't know if you can look at it like that. Shooting the 3 pointer isn't a "new skill", he isn't learning anything new. He has to learn how to extend his range but we are talking about a player who has perfect mechanics on his shot, he just doesn't have the consistency. Some guys never get it and some guys do. Dirk/Mullin/Rashard are players with a flawless mechanics who took a season or two to get used to NBA range. Stockton took a few years and went from being worse than Marv from that range to an excellent deep shooter. Rip Hamilton went from mid-20s to 40s at one point too.

I think the big thing with Marv is, and I hate to keep going back to this, his lack of physical development and subsequent coordination problems. He seems to have trouble squaring up when he catches the ball while moving. Matters less from closer in but when he has to hit from a little deeper, he has to be more accurate and put a little more power behind it than he's used to.

You might be right but it is certainly possible that he does add the range, Mo Evans wasn't a shooter when he can into the league, thats why they sent him to Europe.

I'd be happy with him tightening up his shot from mid-range and becoming more consistent from there. I'm just not sure its going to be any easier to make him a low post whiz or a crack ball handler than it is to add on some range.

[killbuckner]

He made 1 3 pointer last season. He has made 25 3 pointers on 23% shooting in his career. I think the odds of him making 40 3 pointers (one every other game) on more than 30% shooting are awfully low. He looks pretty shooting and so people think he can become a threat from deep just because he wants to. I simply don't see it happening in one offseason. I think if you want Marvin taking that 3 then you have to accept that he is going to make a low percentage. Maybe you still think thats a benefit long term or even a benefit for the Hawks offense overall, but I just don't think its realistic to think that he is going to dramatically increase both the number of 3 pointers he takes and the percentage he makes them.

[conleyorbust]

He made 1 3 pointer last season. He has made 25 3 pointers on 23% shooting in his career. I think the odds of him making 40 3 pointers (one every other game) on more than 30% shooting are awfully low. He looks pretty shooting and so people think he can become a threat from deep just because he wants to. I simply don't see it happening in one offseason. I think if you want Marvin taking that 3 then you have to accept that he is going to make a low percentage. Maybe you still think thats a benefit long term or even a benefit for the Hawks offense overall, but I just don't think its realistic to think that he is going to dramatically increase both the number of 3 pointers he takes and the percentage he makes them.

I don't necessarilly disagree with you, I just think you are being too absolutist. There is precedent for it happening and logically you'd imagine that a young, weak player with nice form on his J would be the most likely candidate to add the 3pt shot to his arsenal.

I'd like to know if it was something he'd worked on before (remember, when he came into the league we were looking at him as a PF) and if so what he's doing differently. If its something he's never focused on, and we've never heard that he has, how is he looking from there now as compared to the past?

Beyond that, I'd like to see consistency in result (made baskets) match the consistency of his form so working on the jumper itself isn't going to hurt him. I see his jumper being a primary asset for him going forward, he isn't a great dribbler or post player either so he may as well strengthen what is already strong.

[Harry10]

when your outside game is working..... then your inside game will become killer.

[killbuckner]

COB- I just don't put any stock at all into the stories of how hard players are working in the offseason- I think they are all just puff pieces that don't at all matter. I would be rather shocked if Marvin wasn't taking 3 pointers every other offseason as well, its just that no one put it into a blog post so it wasn't focused on. I think you could write that same story about pretty much any player you want to.

Once again I'm not saying that its impossible for him to do it, I'd just be willing to bet heavily against it.

Long term its far more reasonable to say you think Marvin could become a threat from 3 point land. I just think the first year he tries to dramatically increase his number of attempts from there he is likely to shoot a low percentage. Like I said, maybe you still think thats a net positive.

[conleyorbust]

COB- I just don't put any stock at all into the stories of how hard players are working in the offseason- I think they are all just puff pieces that don't at all matter. I would be rather shocked if Marvin wasn't taking 3 pointers every other offseason as well, its just that no one put it into a blog post so it wasn't focused on. I think you could write that same story about pretty much any player you want to.

Once again I'm not saying that its impossible for him to do it, I'd just be willing to bet heavily against it.

Long term its far more reasonable to say you think Marvin could become a threat from 3 point land. I just think the first year he tries to dramatically increase his number of attempts from there he is likely to shoot a low percentage. Like I said, maybe you still think thats a net positive.

My point was that he is just as well off strengthening his jumper as he is working on his handles. From his own personal perspective, developing the 3 pointer is valuable even if it takes a couple of seasons. If he's never really put the time into working on that aspect of his game, a jump from the 25% of a couple seasons ago wouldn't be too unexpected. If taking a ton of jumpers helps him be more consistent from midrange too, I'm all for that because I still see his primary value coming from what he can do as a support player on offense.

[LL Cool Scott]

The key to this is that it would make team's actually guard Marvin, which would open things up for Horford and Smith inside, and Johnson and Bibby outside. Last year, teams wouldn't even guard Marvin, because his only threat was a mid-range jumper. Now, if that jumper was a 3-pointer, teams have to respect that. That leaves the middle more open for Horford and Smith, makes the outside more open for Johnson and Bibby, and makes it easier for Marvin to beat his man off the dribble. He would help the team a great deal if he makes 3's consistently.

[High 5]

Shouldn't he earn a nickname like "Marvelous?"

[parson]

Shouldn't he earn a nickname like "Marvelous?"

He's had to put up with insults from the national media and even hometown fans, all while working hard, improving each year and being the ideal teammate. Yeah, I think he's earning that appellation.

My only fear is that, when he pulls a Joe Johnson on us, that he decides to do it for another team. I want to see him reach greatness here. If he makes it to stardom elsewhere, the naysayers will just say they were right. I want to see him make it here and I want the naysayers to have to admit it when he does.

Besides I don't remember anyone else calling him that on this board before I did, so I guess I can call him whatever I wish.

[LL Cool Scott]

Shouldn't he earn a nickname like "Marvelous?"

Good point. I remember Marvelous Marvin Hagler, and that dude earned that nickname. Marvin has a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way to go to earn a nickname like Marvelous. Being a good guy, working hard, and putting up with insults doesn't earn you a nickname like Marvelous. Playing "marvelously" earns you a nickname like Marvelous.

He certainly has the talent and potential to earn that nickname, but he has to start producing on the court and in clutch situations to earn it. Like Parsons, I too hope he sticks around long enough to some day earn that nickname.

[parson]

Call him whatever you want; only remember you'll have to own up to it one day.

I gave him the name and I'll call him whatever I wish. The name is part appreciation for his talent, part response to those insults that too many throw at him and part gratitude for his good nature at taking those insults without griping.

If y'all haven't figured it out by now: I like the kid and I think he's got greatness written all over him. As I've posted for awhile, I think what we've been watching is a kid in a boy's body playing in a man's league. I expect, when he gets his man's body, many here will be singing a different tune.

[conleyorbust]

Shouldn't he earn a nickname like "Marvelous?"

Good point. I remember Marvelous Marvin Hagler, and that dude earned that nickname. Marvin has a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way to go to earn a nickname like Marvelous. Being a good guy, working hard, and putting up with insults doesn't earn you a nickname like Marvelous. Playing "marvelously" earns you a nickname like Marvelous.

He certainly has the talent and potential to earn that nickname, but he has to start producing on the court and in clutch situations to earn it. Like Parsons, I too hope he sticks around long enough to some day earn that nickname.

Unlike a lot of people I think Marv's non-starness has to do more with physical inability and lack of skills than some sort of strange mental block. After all, Chris Webber couldn't produce in the clutch and he was still a baller and a half. Marv's problems seem to stem from the fact that his game is limited to the midrange jumper or a drive if his defender is in recovery and his coordination problems hurt his ability to hit the jumper consistently enough or to finish his drives with authority often enough.

I think that his physical development can turn him into a nice player and his mental development will be more important for him on the defensive end where he has good size for a wing and decent quickness for his size.

I'm not worried about him being out of the league or anything but I think the lack of creativity in his game basically precludes him from being more than a utility player... and I agree that his nickname should be based on his actual characteristics instead of the ones we hope he will show.

[LL Cool Scott]

^ You make a lot of good points. I'll always blindly believe in his potential because I'm a tarheel, and that surely clouds my judgment. He has a beautiful stroke, a prototypical body for a 3, and he leaps quicker than most. He also plays like a complete woman sometimes. With his physical tools, if he ever developed a nasty mindset like Artest, Rasheed, Josh Smith, or even Horford, he could be a star. I don't think that mindset is something you develop though, I think it's something you're born with.

[conleyorbust]

^ You make a lot of good points. I'll always blindly believe in his potential because I'm a tarheel, and that surely clouds my judgment. He has a beautiful stroke, a prototypical body for a 3, and he leaps quicker than most. He also plays like a complete woman sometimes. With his physical tools, if he ever developed a nasty mindset like Artest, Rasheed, Josh Smith, or even Horford, he could be a star. I don't think that mindset is something you develop though, I think it's something you're born with.

His stroke is perfect and his release is the same every time so I think its fair to assume that he could become a much more consistent shooter if his body develops to the point where he starts to move like a regular person instead of a duck. I honestly believe that the main reason he does hit those midrange jumpers at a higher rate is because he doesn't have the body control to square up while he's on the move. That is a bigger problem from deep and it would explain why he has trouble finishing around the rim unless he has enough room to off both feet and dunk.

I don't need him to be a star, every team needs a guy that can knock down a bunch of open shots and smother the other team's best player. I'd be thrilled if Marv could be that guy.